Audyssey XT Question

J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
You made me double check that I might be wrong about the 2312 (and apparently 2313) not having preouts, but it sure doesn't look like it.

I did say I was aware of the 3312 already, I was just curious what other options got closer to the refurb 2312 pricing was all.

I'm pretty sure the 3808 is not Pro capable- unless some recent FW allowed for it. This gen is around the time where I was pretty darn familiar with what was out there, and it sure as heck didn't have the capability back then.

So unless I really am wrong about the above, I'll only check out the Marantz at this point. Even if not much less than the 3312 anyway, surely not 2312 level of pricing, and you were telling me to stay away from Marantz as well!

For the 886 pricing, I could have a much, much more current unit with other desirable features, for the same money. I'd give up features perhaps for less, but if it's the same price, I want Dolby Volume, HDMI 1.4, etc, if it's it won't cost me any more.

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/Images/products/AVR-2312CI/c26-avr-2312-2-l.png

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/Images/Products/NewIncommandSeries/c26-AVR2313CI-2-l.jpg
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
You made me double check that I might be wrong about the 2312 (and apparently 2313) not having preouts, but it sure doesn't look like it.

I did say I was aware of the 3312 already, I was just curious what other options got closer to the refurb 2312 pricing was all.

I'm pretty sure the 3808 is not Pro capable- unless some recent FW allowed for it. This gen is around the time where I was pretty darn familiar with what was out there, and it sure as heck didn't have the capability back then.

So unless I really am wrong about the above, I'll only check out the Marantz at this point. Even if not much less than the 3312 anyway, surely not 2312 level of pricing, and you were telling me to stay away from Marantz as well!

For the 886 pricing, I could have a much, much more current unit with other desirable features, for the same money. I'd give up features perhaps for less, but if it's the same price, I want Dolby Volume, HDMI 1.4, etc, if it's it won't cost me any more.

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/Images/products/AVR-2312CI/c26-avr-2312-2-l.png

http://usa.denon.com/Assets/Images/Products/NewIncommandSeries/c26-AVR2313CI-2-l.jpg
Oops, my bad. They only have the L/R/Sub preout.

The audyssey website says that the 3808 is.

Well that was before you said that you were only interested in a few things and that you could probably live without more options than most :D
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, I've been given the same link by one member in the AVS thread, but then the other guy who created the super-FAQ gives me a chart that says the opposite. The disagreement is not just with the 3808, but also 3811, 4308, 4310, 4810. Maybe he didn't update it, I dunno. It also happens to say that it's still beneficial to get the highest level of MultEQ even when going Pro, because it uses the specific given tech in running Pro. Which I guess kind of makes sense, but I really wonder how all the variations would match up. For instance, how much better if at all is XT with 32 positions vs XT32 with 8? Or perhaps the latter is better? I'm sure the setup would mix it up as well.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I know I read in the audioholics article that was written awhile back, that XT did a great job. It wasn't a blind test, though so how much of that was in their heads is debatable.

I can't for the life of me, find it, but I feel fairly confident that I read somewhere that in the Sean Olive RC comparison study that one of the RC's tested was Audyssey, I don't know what level was rumored to have been tested. Since he clearly states the top two performers were Harman, if the rumors were true there's a 1 in 3 chance audyssey did really well. Although, there's also a 2 in three chance it was awful. Take that as you will.
 
I

IamEvilOne

Enthusiast
So did you get your answer. Im postin so I can post a picture on my thread. Thanks
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I know I read in the audioholics article that was written awhile back, that XT did a great job. It wasn't a blind test, though so how much of that was in their heads is debatable.

I can't for the life of me, find it, but I feel fairly confident that I read somewhere that in the Sean Olive RC comparison study that one of the RC's tested was Audyssey, I don't know what level was rumored to have been tested. Since he clearly states the top two performers were Harman, if the rumors were true there's a 1 in 3 chance audyssey did really well. Although, there's also a 2 in three chance it was awful. Take that as you will.
Yes I remember when that happened. For some reason I had the impression that AS did very poorly, I don't know why I think that. Shrug. The Harman stuff might be way better, who knows, but I do like what Audyssey does for my HT system, which does have both compromised acoustics, and just okay speakers. I remember that the overall improvement, to me subjectively, was about as dramatic as the significant treating of the room.

No disrespect to S.O., but I do take his results with a little salt for two reasons: I consider who is employer is. I like what I like.

I'm also pretty sure he thinks electrostats are horrible speakers. How did he put it, I think he said you can't squeeze blood from a stone. The metrics he tested for, with some entry level version, were pretty bad, for the setup he used. The ones I have in my LR, they have a variety of strong compromises, but for what I listen to, and the levels I listen to them at, I've never heard anything better for what happens in between the speakers. Granted, they cost more than twice my 7.1 rig combined. Shrug. I auditioned more than 99,999 out of any given 100,000 would ever do before purchasing, and FWIW I at least thought I knew what I liked, what sounded real, because I am degreed in classical music performance from top flight schools, in fact the best school period west of Indiana for grad work.

Then I realize that Mr. Olive himself is supposed to be an accomplished pianist, maybe even a concertizing one in a past life?

The other tidbit that starts jogging this memory and talk, is that last night when searching through the AVP thread(s), I see JonFo as the only one at AH that I can presently find that is using Audyssey Pro. He also uses a full on electrostat setup. As I recall, his father was a pro concert pianist, Juilliard trained, and these speakers were the only thing he ever heard that could sound like his father playing in the home as he remembered it. I guess my point is, just because the esteemed Mr. Olive can scientifically say that any given products sucks eggs, doesn't mean I won't still really like it, and feel comfortable enough about it as well. That said, I'd be happy to give Harman a try if someone had a particular unit to recommend. OTOH, I think I'm giving up on this search, as I'm happy enough right now with the HT works. BTW, the AVSers have convinced me to go with XT32 over XT/Pro if it came to that, but I'm just going to stay put. Cheers.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Gladiators of the AV Colosseum

Gentlemen . . .

Firstly, . . . in reading thru this thread, particularly the banter between Jostenmeat & Fuzz092888, I believe I burst a blood vessel in my eyeball, (due respect intended) . . .

Please feel free to swat me w/ a rolled up newspaper and redirect if this is considered 'hijacking' . . .

I'm VERY new to the world of EQ in general & "Audyssey MultEQ xt32" specifically; so, please forgive any misuse of commonly used jargon . . .

I'm trying to better understand Audyssey MultEQ xt32 as I've run it several times w/ my current Denon AVR (4311). My question appears to be very basic (judging by the MANY responses I've seen online; but I cannot seem to find the reason for said responses) & I need to understand the why behind it? . . . just my nature I guess.

So, here's my situation:

Audyssey set's my mains (Paradigm Studio 100s v5; 44Hz-22kHz w/ 25 LFE) to Large/Full Band & crossover at 80Hz. That being said, the prevailing wisdom seems to emphatically state that the 'mains should always be set to small.' And I guess that's what I don't understand . . . if the mains are capable of playing that low & thus sending the lower frequencies to both the mains & the sub . . . why isn't it a good thing to share that signal w/ as many drivers as are able to reproduce it?

My sub's frequency range is (SVS SB13 Ultra) 20-460 Hz, extension 15Hz (+/- 3 dB);

So, if I'm understanding things correctly . . . my mains & sub would both reproduce the signal between 80Hz & 44Hz (depending on the reliability of the LFE, 25); then anything beyond 44Hz would be solely carried by my sub?

I realize this is elementary to you guys; but I would appreciate your help w/ grasping this very basic issue . . .

Side Note: This is the concern I have underlying this issue: When I listen to music; I prefer to have my speakers set to full band as I really like their overall sound & obviously my sub kicks in at the bottom . . . my sub is really for HT purposes; as I don't really listen to much 'thumper' music . . .

Anyway, hopefully that was coherent; if not, let me know & I'll readdress . . .

Shek5150
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I didn't go look, but for some reason I'm wondering if fuzz has your same receiver, in which case he will be 100x more familiar with how it acts, mine is pretty "old", from the very first generation of HDMI receivers with onboard decoders in fact.

Between large and small, the difference is that this portion of the information either gets sent to your sub or that certain speaker. It will not be that both are playing the same thing. LFE will always be only played by the subwoofer, as long as the receiver thinks one is connected. The only way you get LFE to mains is if you tell the receiver that a sub is not connected, and then it sends LFE but at a very tiny fraction of the volume so as not to blow either the speaker or receiver itself (your sub gets its own amp; imagine if your receiver was responsible for its power as well).

So it's just how you split the difference, if you will. Your subwoofer is (potentially) responsible for a lot of information: the dedicated LFE, and the rest of the freq band below the xover points for every other speaker in your room, all 7 of them for instance.

Your query as far as wanting as many speakers playing as much of any info as possible is misguided. Your amplitude response will be messed up.

Say I'm a composer, and give my speakers (singers) very specific instructions for soprano, bass, etc. I do not want my tenor line doubling up on the few bass notes that he could hit on the bass line. If I wanted two voices singing that line to begin with, I would have given those instructions to begin with. Wouldn't it be weird to hear a low melody get twice as loud once it hit a certain threshold of pitch, and then get twice as soft every time it went below it?

Also as a side note, you need to understand that crossovers are not brick walls. Look up crossover slopes; when you set a speaker to small with say an 80hz xover, it still will in fact be playing frequencies well below it. Just that the amount of amplitude it's responsible for becomes less and less as the freq gets lower. If you set any given xover point at the "mftr given spec which may likely be exaggerated anyway", you sort of have a doubling up of the slopes; does that make sense? This is why some people think the chosen xover point should be well above the -3db point, I think I've seen some people suggest a whole octave above. I'm pretty sure I don't go that high, don't care so much about this as far as my surrounds possibly being responsible for a tad bit more than they can chew, but I am definitely more concerned with the power handling of my front 3; however my HT rig is pretty much that, for movies. These distances do matter quite a bit IMO, because SPL drops off exponentially with it; in most cases surround speakers are much closer than the front 3, so power handling usually isn't quite the same issue, and they are used much less frequently, which may allow much more time for heat dissipation (key issue to power handling).
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Gentlemen . . .

Firstly, . . . in reading thru this thread, particularly the banter between Jostenmeat & Fuzz092888, I believe I burst a blood vessel in my eyeball, (due respect intended) . . .

Please feel free to swat me w/ a rolled up newspaper and redirect if this is considered 'hijacking' . . .

I'm VERY new to the world of EQ in general & "Audyssey MultEQ xt32" specifically; so, please forgive any misuse of commonly used jargon . . .

I'm trying to better understand Audyssey MultEQ xt32 as I've run it several times w/ my current Denon AVR (4311). My question appears to be very basic (judging by the MANY responses I've seen online; but I cannot seem to find the reason for said responses) & I need to understand the why behind it? . . . just my nature I guess.

So, here's my situation:

Audyssey set's my mains (Paradigm Studio 100s v5; 44Hz-22kHz w/ 25 LFE) to Large/Full Band & crossover at 80Hz. That being said, the prevailing wisdom seems to emphatically state that the 'mains should always be set to small.' And I guess that's what I don't understand . . . if the mains are capable of playing that low & thus sending the lower frequencies to both the mains & the sub . . . why isn't it a good thing to share that signal w/ as many drivers as are able to reproduce it?

My sub's frequency range is (SVS SB13 Ultra) 20-460 Hz, extension 15Hz (+/- 3 dB);

So, if I'm understanding things correctly . . . my mains & sub would both reproduce the signal between 80Hz & 44Hz (depending on the reliability of the LFE, 25); then anything beyond 44Hz would be solely carried by my sub?

I realize this is elementary to you guys; but I would appreciate your help w/ grasping this very basic issue . . .

Side Note: This is the concern I have underlying this issue: When I listen to music; I prefer to have my speakers set to full band as I really like their overall sound & obviously my sub kicks in at the bottom . . . my sub is really for HT purposes; as I don't really listen to much 'thumper' music . . .

Anyway, hopefully that was coherent; if not, let me know & I'll readdress . . .

Shek5150
Just for the record.....I am somewhat of an expert on Audyssey...so ask away...

jostenmeat...be on PM stand-by in case someone really asks me a question...:D
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Audyssey set's my mains (Paradigm Studio 100s v5; 44Hz-22kHz w/ 25 LFE) to Large/Full Band & crossover at 80Hz. That being said, the prevailing wisdom seems to emphatically state that the 'mains should always be set to small.' And I guess that's what I don't understand . . . if the mains are capable of playing that low & thus sending the lower frequencies to both the mains & the sub . . . why isn't it a good thing to share that signal w/ as many drivers as are able to reproduce it?

My sub's frequency range is (SVS SB13 Ultra) 20-460 Hz, extension 15Hz (+/- 3 dB);

So, if I'm understanding things correctly . . . my mains & sub would both reproduce the signal between 80Hz & 44Hz (depending on the reliability of the LFE, 25); then anything beyond 44Hz would be solely carried by my sub?

I realize this is elementary to you guys; but I would appreciate your help w/ grasping this very basic issue . . .

Side Note: This is the concern I have underlying this issue: When I listen to music; I prefer to have my speakers set to full band as I really like their overall sound & obviously my sub kicks in at the bottom . . . my sub is really for HT purposes; as I don't really listen to much 'thumper' music . . .

Anyway, hopefully that was coherent; if not, let me know & I'll readdress . . .

Shek5150
The 100's can't touch what the SVS does with deep output and extension. Cross those pups over at 60hz and be done with it.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to Jostenmeat

Thanks for your reply . . . & I appreciate your patience as I seem to struggle w/ grasping something that's reportedly so basic . . . & please excuse me if I appear argumentative . . . just trying to understand.

As the Large vs Small goes, and I'll certainly check w/ someone else that has the 4311; but when I go into my Settings>Base Mgt>LFE&Main. So, when my speakers are set to Large & I select LFE&Main: it says "Play low range and LFE signals of all channels." So, I guess I thought it was implied that the Sub & Mains would both reproduce the shared frequencies (in my mind I picture a Venn Diagram; & the overlapping area would be the common frequency that they'd both reproduce)....

And as far as multiple drivers pushing the same frequencies; I guess I just likened it to someone having multiple subs (obviously this being apples & oranges after a certain point). I only have one sub; but it seems like I run across MANY folks that sing the praises of running multiple subs in their HT. So, I figured (referring back to the frequency Venn Diagram) it would result in a 'fuller' sound in that overlapping frequency range. . . it sounds like you're saying I'm wrong here . . . which is fine; I just thought it made sense.

I do have much to learn about much . . . no doubt. But, this is a journey that I'm truly enjoying as I've been out of AV for a loooooooong time. . . And I'm still (3 month after setting up my current system) amazed as I sit and listen to Joe Bonamassa in just 2-channel set up . . . anyway, I'm just babbling here . ..

Thanks again.

Shek5150
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to ParadigmDawg . . .

Hey there & thanks for the reply . . .

I understand & agree w/ your statement:

(The 100's can't touch what the SVS does with deep output and extension. Cross those pups over at 60hz and be done with it.)

But, like I said to Jostenmeat, it seemed to make sense to me that my mains & sub would both reproduce the frequencies between 80 & 44Hz (25 DIN?) . . . & beyond 44Hz, the sub would completely take over . . . guess that's not the case.

I just have trouble understanding why Audyssey would set my speakers to large & the cross over to 40Hz (I was actually wrong in my initial post; when I went back in thru settings . . . Audyssey actually set my Mains & Center cross over at 40 Hz & my surrounds at 80Hz.) . . .

So, bottom line, you're saying that I should set my Mains to "Small" and put the cross over at 60Hz . . . right?

Thanks always PD.
 
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ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
. .

So, bottom line, you're saying that I should set my Mains to "Small" and put the cross over at 60Hz . . . right?

Thanks always PD.
Yes, set mains to small and crossover at 60. I cross my center over at 60 too and my surrounds at 100.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to ParadigmDawg . . .

Thanks PD . . . if it's good enough for you . . . it's good enough for me . . . (((though I gotta be honest, I still don't understand the "why" behind it))). . . no worries . . . guess I'm a little thick. . . douuuu

Do you have the Denon AVR 4311? If so, I have another non-Audyssey related question . . . if not, no worries . .

p.s., I was back looking at your posted pics of your Paradigm 'stuff' . . . are your's the piano black? . . . I really love the sound of these 100s; & I think I love the look of my Cherry cabinets; until I see the piano black ones . . . they just look very elegant . . .
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Firstly, . . . in reading thru this thread, particularly the banter between Jostenmeat & Fuzz092888, I believe I burst a blood vessel in my eyeball, (due respect intended) . . .
Why burst?

So, here's my situation:

Audyssey set's my mains (Paradigm Studio 100s v5; 44Hz-22kHz w/ 25 LFE) to Large/Full Band & crossover at 80Hz. That being said, the prevailing wisdom seems to emphatically state that the 'mains should always be set to small.' And I guess that's what I don't understand . . . if the mains are capable of playing that low & thus sending the lower frequencies to both the mains & the sub . . . why isn't it a good thing to share that signal w/ as many drivers as are able to reproduce it?

My sub's frequency range is (SVS SB13 Ultra) 20-460 Hz, extension 15Hz (+/- 3 dB);

So, if I'm understanding things correctly . . . my mains & sub would both reproduce the signal between 80Hz & 44Hz (depending on the reliability of the LFE, 25); then anything beyond 44Hz would be solely carried by my sub?
It is my understanding of Audyssey that it is recognizing that your speakers are capable of playing low enough into the frequency bandwidth that by Audyssey's calculations they should be set to large and don't "need" to be crossed over.

The reason most people recommend against this, is because at higher SPL's the odds of a typical tower speaker's woofers being able to output those lower frequencies with the same SPL's as a subwoofer are slim to none. Not to mention the damage you could do to your towers by trying to hit 100 db with your tower speakers woofers with frequencies under 80hz.

Side Note: This is the concern I have underlying this issue: When I listen to music; I prefer to have my speakers set to full band as I really like their overall sound & obviously my sub kicks in at the bottom . . . my sub is really for HT purposes; as I don't really listen to much 'thumper' music . . .

Anyway, hopefully that was coherent; if not, let me know & I'll readdress . . .

Shek5150
If you don't use the sub for music, just switch the listening mode to direct or pure and it will be just 2 channel.

I didn't go look, but for some reason I'm wondering if fuzz has your same receiver, in which case he will be 100x more familiar with how it acts, mine is pretty "old", from the very first generation of HDMI receivers with onboard decoders in fact.

Between large and small, the difference is that this portion of the information either gets sent to your sub or that certain speaker. It will not be that both are playing the same thing. LFE will always be only played by the subwoofer, as long as the receiver thinks one is connected. The only way you get LFE to mains is if you tell the receiver that a sub is not connected, and then it sends LFE but at a very tiny fraction of the volume so as not to blow either the speaker or receiver itself (your sub gets its own amp; imagine if your receiver was responsible for its power as well).

So it's just how you split the difference, if you will. Your subwoofer is (potentially) responsible for a lot of information: the dedicated LFE, and the rest of the freq band below the xover points for every other speaker in your room, all 7 of them for instance.

Your query as far as wanting as many speakers playing as much of any info as possible is misguided. Your amplitude response will be messed up.

Say I'm a composer, and give my speakers (singers) very specific instructions for soprano, bass, etc. I do not want my tenor line doubling up on the few bass notes that he could hit on the bass line. If I wanted two voices singing that line to begin with, I would have given those instructions to begin with. Wouldn't it be weird to hear a low melody get twice as loud once it hit a certain threshold of pitch, and then get twice as soft every time it went below it?

Also as a side note, you need to understand that crossovers are not brick walls. Look up crossover slopes; when you set a speaker to small with say an 80hz xover, it still will in fact be playing frequencies well below it. Just that the amount of amplitude it's responsible for becomes less and less as the freq gets lower. If you set any given xover point at the "mftr given spec which may likely be exaggerated anyway", you sort of have a doubling up of the slopes; does that make sense? This is why some people think the chosen xover point should be well above the -3db point, I think I've seen some people suggest a whole octave above. I'm pretty sure I don't go that high, don't care so much about this as far as my surrounds possibly being responsible for a tad bit more than they can chew, but I am definitely more concerned with the power handling of my front 3; however my HT rig is pretty much that, for movies. These distances do matter quite a bit IMO, because SPL drops off exponentially with it; in most cases surround speakers are much closer than the front 3, so power handling usually isn't quite the same issue, and they are used much less frequently, which may allow much more time for heat dissipation (key issue to power handling).
What he said for the crossover. For the LFE set I always set it to 120Hz, that way I don't lose any. If you set the LFE level as high as it will go you get all the LFE's that are mixed into any movie track. The reason to cut them out is if your subwoofer isn't capable of handling all of that, but yours can.

As the Large vs Small goes, and I'll certainly check w/ someone else that has the 4311; but when I go into my Settings>Base Mgt>LFE&Main. So, when my speakers are set to Large & I select LFE&Main: it says "Play low range and LFE signals of all channels." So, I guess I thought it was implied that the Sub & Mains would both reproduce the shared frequencies (in my mind I picture a Venn Diagram; & the overlapping area would be the common frequency that they'd both reproduce)....
What LFE + Main means is that when you set any of your speakers to large, they will play the complete bandwidth (but not LFE signals). If you then select LFE + Main, any of the speakers set to large will play the full bandwidth, but it receiver will also send all bass signals below whatever crossover frequency you set to the subwoofer as well. Basically "doubling" the bass.

Only a good idea if you plan on playing at reasonable levels, others you risk bottoming out the woofers in your speakers as I said above.

And as far as multiple drivers pushing the same frequencies; I guess I just likened it to someone having multiple subs (obviously this being apples & oranges after a certain point). I only have one sub; but it seems like I run across MANY folks that sing the praises of running multiple subs in their HT. So, I figured (referring back to the frequency Venn Diagram) it would result in a 'fuller' sound in that overlapping frequency range. . . it sounds like you're saying I'm wrong here . . . which is fine; I just thought it made sense.
Shek5150
Definitely not the same as multiple subs. It may lead to "fuller" bass, but again you have to be very careful about your levels. LFE + Main will definitely not substitute multiple subwoofers.

Hey there & thanks for the reply . . .

I understand & agree w/ your statement:

(The 100's can't touch what the SVS does with deep output and extension. Cross those pups over at 60hz and be done with it.)

But, like I said to Jostenmeat, it seemed to make sense to me that my mains & sub would both reproduce the frequencies between 80 & 44Hz (25 DIN?) . . . & beyond 44Hz, the sub would completely take over . . . guess that's not the case.

I just have trouble understanding why Audyssey would set my speakers to large & the cross over to 40Hz (I was actually wrong in my initial post; when I went back in thru settings . . . Audyssey actually set my Mains & Center cross over at 40 Hz & my surrounds at 80Hz.) . . .

So, bottom line, you're saying that I should set my Mains to "Small" and put the cross over at 60Hz . . . right?

Thanks always PD.
The crossover point should be determined by the speakers natural roll off point. It is a personal preference type thing where exactly you set the crossover, but ideally you would measure you speakers in your own room to find the natural roll off point and then set the crossover at the roll off point or slightly above to ensure the frequency response stays flat for as long as possible. Some people like to put it other places, but that's generally how I look to set my own.
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
As the Large vs Small goes, and I'll certainly check w/ someone else that has the 4311; but when I go into my Settings>Base Mgt>LFE&Main. So, when my speakers are set to Large & I select LFE&Main: it says "Play low range and LFE signals of all channels." So, I guess I thought it was implied that the Sub & Mains would both reproduce the shared frequencies (in my mind I picture a Venn Diagram; & the overlapping area would be the common frequency that they'd both reproduce)....
I'm glad fuzz covered that bit; I failed to address the "double bass" function, partially due to laziness, but also because I didn't want to spend time talking about this choice of inaccurate function.

And as far as multiple drivers pushing the same frequencies; I guess I just likened it to someone having multiple subs (obviously this being apples & oranges after a certain point). I only have one sub; but it seems like I run across MANY folks that sing the praises of running multiple subs in their HT. So, I figured (referring back to the frequency Venn Diagram) it would result in a 'fuller' sound in that overlapping frequency range. . . it sounds like you're saying I'm wrong here . . . which is fine; I just thought it made sense.
Yes, and when they have multiple subs, they will reduce the levels for each of them. They will have greater headroom for sure, in the case they were maxing out prematurely at high volumes. They get more even EQ response. So I can see why you're asking what you are: But here's the thing, YOU ALREADY HAVE the "Venn diagram" as soon as you apply a xover. Did you look up "crossover slopes" like I asked? Once you set a speaker to small, there is a large range of audio that the subwoofer and speaker are sharing. Yes, true.

When you said 44hz or whatever it was, I will assume that is the -3db point. Did you know that it takes a doubling of power for a 3db difference? Therefore your speaker is *naturally* so much quieter down at 44hz, that it's like the receiver decided to only provide it half the power right there. (Hence, my attempted explanation as to why some people advise selecting a xover point considerably higher than the -3db point; because response usually falls even faster below that point, sometimes like "off a cliff".)


So let's play with your idea of Venn diagrams. Let's say the range of 20Hz-20kHz represented a line 6" across, and that you have two speakers, ahem two circles, that are responsible for this length. Let's say you want a perfectly balanced freq vs amplitude. So you throw a test tone, uh test color, of Funny Yellow Food Coloring #425581 with a specific color temperature of 2,462 Kelvin. At every point along this 6" line, an accurate system would have it at 2,462 Kelvin. THEREFORE, if you have two perfectly yellow circles overlapping, at the area of overlap, it's TOO DARK. One or both must go lighter for the system to be accurate. Now let's say you could halve the pigmentation for each, so that the sum is perfect, linearally, but it works a bit differently with speakers:

The greater the overlapping area with the two circles, the gentler the xover slope. The less of an overlap there is, the steeper the slope. In both cases however, the right edge of the overlapping area will have most of its pigmentation from the right circle. Way on the left side of the overlap, the right circle is almost giving nothing at all. Make sense? This is how a xover works, in concept. If neither circle had any "give" in the middle, it is now too dark compared to what would be accurate.

So say you capitulate that you might want a higher xover, but dammit, you just want as much overlap as humanly possible; you're just not gonna give this desire up. Not only do you have to worry about what fuzz was saying, if you get high enough in freq, your subwoofer becomes localizable. Wouldn't it be weird to hear a voice coming from a corner subwoofer every time someone spoke? Sure, this won't happen until at least above 80hz, but this is the thing I'm sort of repeating: your sub is already playing frequencies above 80! There isn't any need to go for more overlap than what you probably already have.
 
Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to Fuzz092888

Hey Fuzz . . .

Thanks for the reply & info . . .

Regarding 'bursting', i was merely referring to the fact that you guys are so well versed in this stuff that sometimes it hurts my head to keep even the basics straight . . . i've been out of AV circulation for a veeeery long time . . . but am enjoying getting back into it . . .

"The reason most people recommend against this, is because at higher SPL's the odds of a typical tower speaker's woofers being able to output those lower frequencies with the same SPL's as a subwoofer are slim to none. Not to mention the damage you could do to your towers by trying to hit 100 db with your tower speakers woofers with frequencies under 80hz."

I think I had an 'a-ha moment' . . . wasn't huge, but I get it . .. so, thanks for that.

If you don't use the sub for music, just switch the listening mode to direct or pure and it will be just 2 channel

I wouldn't say I don't use the sub w/ music; but I don't seek out base heavy music . . . unlike my wife & her club music. . . that being said, good to know about 'pure/direct' mode . . . this may be a silly question, but by doing so, do my mains revert back to Large/Full Band speakers?

For the LFE set I always set it to 120Hz, that way I don't lose any.

Are you saying you set your main crossover at 120 Hz?

I understand that my comparison was not equivalent to 'multiple subs' . . . I clearly failed at trying to communicate my point there . . . so, please just disregard that all together . . .

I clearly have much learning to do along the way . . . & I just want to be sure I "do no harm in the process" . . . . . . hence, your point about over driving the tower woofers speaks to me . . . douuuu!!!

Thanks Fuzz
 
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fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
If you don't use the sub for music, just switch the listening mode to direct or pure and it will be just 2 channel

I wouldn't say I don't use the sub w/ music; but I don't seek out base heavy music . . . unlike my wife & her club music. . . that being said, good to know about 'pure/direct' mode . . . this may be a silly question, but by doing so, do my mains revert back to Large/Full Band speakers?

For the LFE set I always set it to 120Hz, that way I don't lose any.

Are you saying you set your main crossover at 120 Hz?

I understand that my comparison was not equivalent to 'multiple subs' . . . I clearly failed at trying to communicate my point there . . . so, please just disregard that all together . . .

I clearly have much learning to do along the way . . . & I just want to be sure I "do no harm in the process" . . . . . . hence, your point about over driving the tower woofers speaks to me . . . douuuu!!!

Thanks Fuzz
For direct/pure mode the speakers go to whatever the source material is. If it is a CD then odds are it is stereo only so yes they would default to large. If it was a multichannel SACD or blu-ray or DVD whatever the track or movie was mixed at (2.0, 2.1, 5.1, 7.1) the receiver will default to that.

They don't "revert" per se, but they adjust themselves to the signal. In pure it eliminates the subwoofer, and in direct you have the choice of keeping the subwoofer or turning it off (I think, I know I can do this with my receiver I'd have to look through the Denon manual to know if yours does the same thing, but I'd guess it does).

No, not the crossover. There is the crossover and then there is the LFE level. You can set the LFE level at a number of different Hz and it will filter out all LFE (low frequency effects) above what you set it at. So if you set it at 120Hz, then you ensure that you don't miss any of the LFEs.
 
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Shek5150

Shek5150

Audioholic
Reply to fuzz092888

For direct/pure mode the speakers go to whatever the source material is. If it is a CD then odds are it is stereo only so yes they would default to large. If it was a multichannel SACD or blu-ray or DVD whatever the track or movie was mixed at (2.0, 2.1, 5.1, 7.1) the receiver will default to that.

They don't "revert" per se, but they adjust themselves to the signal. In pure it eliminates the subwoofer, and in direct you have the choice of keeping the subwoofer or turning it off (I think, I know I can do this with my receiver I'd have to look through the Denon manual to know if yours does the same thing, but I'd guess it does).
Well, that makes sense . . . this Denon is like night & day from the receiver that it's replacing (yamaha RX v2095) . . . so, I'm still learning MUCH about it.

No, not the crossover. There is the crossover and then there is the LFE level. You can set the LFE level at a number of different Hz and it will filter out all LFE (low frequency effects) above what you set it at. So if you set it at 120Hz, then you ensure that you don't miss any of the LFEs.
Duh, I got it, 120 Hz is also what my Denon defaulted to for the LFE level . . . sorry for confusion (on my part) & I do appreciate your help & patience as I try to catch up a dozen years of being lost in an audio vacuum . ..

v/r,

Shek5150.
 

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