Audyssey XT Question

[jostenmeat]

Alright. Thanks, I'll probably try the thread first.

My interest in the AVS thread really got piqued when I saw that even "lowly" Denons like the 2312 (currently available as refurb) has Pro capability! You probably weren't around back then, but for a long time there you could only get that with dedicated pre-pros, save for the sole exception of Denon's flagship receiver, the 5308, this is going by distant memory. All options were $1,600 or higher at the time, and today the 2312 is only $450, wow. (I'm going to search out who has it here as soon as I finish this post; edit: ran the search, crap, no preouts!! GRR!!!) Anyway, so I started reading today's discussion, backwards in time to yesterday, where I saw . . .

. . . that the topic of "receiver vs Audyssey in choosing xovers" was addressed again in the thread as recently as yesterday! This time not by Chris, but by the person who created the encyclopedia also known as "WELCOME TO THE AUDYSSEY MULTEQ FAQ AND 'AUDYSSEY 101'!" The link given was the below:

Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

Audyssey has simply 'listened' during the measuring phase and reported the -3dB point of the frequency response to your AVR. What this means is this: when Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the frequency response of your speaker and find where it starts to roll off (i.e. become 'less loud'). When Audyssey detects the point at which the frequency response is down by 3dB ('the -3dB point') it stops trying to correct for the in-room response. So if, for example, your speaker is -3dB down at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz. Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower frequencies beyond the capabilities of your speaker and damaging it.

It is then the responsibility of the AVR manufacturer to decide what to do with that information. In some cases, if the -3dB point is, say, 40Hz, the AVR will set the speakers to Large. In other cases, the same situation will result in the speakers being set to Small with a 40Hz Crossover set in the AVR menus. In addition, Audyssey takes into account the placement of the speakers in the room and the room characteristics itself when evaluating the -3dB point. So if your speakers are in a corner, for example, they will deliver more perceived bass than if they are out in the open because the room reinforces' the bass. All of this will influence the Crossover that is actually set. You can leave the Crossover to where it was set if you wish. However

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)

 

[jostenmeat]

Alex I get the same xover (40) each time I've run Audyssey. Setting all the levels at 75dB (sub included) with SPL prior to running the full calibration, I do get a more accurate sub distance than just running Audy XT without the prior level matches. Thanks, I still have not decided what I prefer, RC or not, I'm leaning toward the manual SPL meter, I think I just have a perfect room and there is no corrections to be made

How do you know which sub distance is more accurate? Maybe you missed what I typed with all the back and forth about what exactly chooses the initial xover setting, but I'm pretty sure I explained how the sub [strike]distance[/strike] delay measurement is not just the physical distance, but also the additional electrical delay, which is particularly great with a consumer subwoofer's internal EQ/DSP. (Or in my case with a tapped horn, it thinks it's over a zip code or two.)

 

[fuzz092888]

My interest in the AVS thread really got piqued when I saw that even "lowly" Denons like the 2312 (currently available as refurb) has Pro capability! You probably weren't around back then, but for a long time there you could only get that with dedicated pre-pros, save for the sole exception of Denon's flagship receiver, the 5308, this is going by distant memory. All options were $1,600 or higher at the time, and today the 2312 is only $450, wow. (I'm going to search out who has it here as soon as I finish this post; edit: ran the search, crap, no preouts!! GRR!!!) Anyway, so I started reading today's discussion, backwards in time to yesterday, where I saw . . .

. . . that the topic of "receiver vs Audyssey in choosing xovers" was addressed again in the thread as recently as yesterday! This time not by Chris, but by the person who created the encyclopedia also known as "WELCOME TO THE AUDYSSEY MULTEQ FAQ AND 'AUDYSSEY 101'!" The link given was the below:



"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)

I don't doubt you or what the thread you linked to said, but then why does the audyssey website say differently (or at least what I perceive to be different)?

How is MultEQ different on AVRs by different manufacturers?
The core Audyssey technology used by all manufacturers is the same. The only differences are in the implementation of the user interface that each manufacturer selected for their products.

 

[jostenmeat]

"How is MultEQ different on AVRs by different manufacturers? The core Audyssey technology used by all manufacturers is the same. The only differences are in the implementation of the user interface that each manufacturer selected for their products. "

It is saying exactly the same thing that I have been all along in this thread. No, it doesn't explain in as much detail as I might have (which admittedly is still not detailed enough to give ahblaza the "ins & outs" of his own unit), but it surely isn't saying the opposite of what I have been.

 

[jostenmeat]

I don't doubt you or what the thread you linked to said, but then why does the audyssey website say differently (or at least what I perceive to be different)?

Hey now that I have your ear, and for a total unabashed hijack from hell, what can you tell me about the 3312, as far as any ins and outs that only an AHer might know? (I see your posts in so many of my search results for both the 2312 and 3312.) Thank you.

 

[fuzz092888]

"How is MultEQ different on AVRs by different manufacturers? The core Audyssey technology used by all manufacturers is the same. The only differences are in the implementation of the user interface that each manufacturer selected for their products. "

It is saying exactly the same thing that I have been all along in this thread. No, it doesn't explain in as much detail as I might have (which admittedly is still not detailed enough to give ahblaza the "ins & outs" of his own unit), but it surely isn't saying the opposite of what I have been.

I disagree, but I'll leave it at that. You very well may be right, and probably are, but I don't interpret UI as what you've said (or quoted) it as being.

 

[fuzz092888]

Hey now that I have your ear, and for a total unabashed hijack from hell, what can you tell me about the 3312, as far as any ins and outs that only an AHer might know? (I see your posts in so many of my search results for both the 2312 and 3312.) Thank you.

Honestly, for all things Denon I really only read the manual or use the Denon to English dictionary.

batpigworld | the "Denon-to-English" dictionary…. your one-stop shop for Denon help

Anytime someone has trouble with their Denon I can either find the answer in the manual or use the link above to figure out what the heck Denon was trying to say.

Now if you want to know the in's and out's of a Marantz 5006/6006/5007/6007 or an Onkyo 3009/5009/3010/5010 I'm game. I had a 5006, played extensively with a 6006 and above. Have a 3009 and played with a 5009/3010/5010. Those I know much better than Denon.

 

[jostenmeat]

Now if you want to know the in's and out's of a Marantz 5006/6006/5007/6007 or an Onkyo 3009/5009/3010/5010 I'm game. I had a 5006, played extensively with a 6006 and above. Have a 3009 and played with a 5009/3010/5010. Those I know much better than Denon.

OK!

Which do you think is the best value as 100% HT processor for a 7.1 system, but also has Pro capability?

Are all available target curves available in any mode?

Do any have Dolby Volume? (If so, is there a snowball's chance in hell it is usable on top of Audyssey?)

Can the available target curves possibly be defaulted to certain modes and/or inputs easily?

Has Onkyo finally got rid of the automatic (without option to permanently defeat) DRC flagging of True-HD when bitstreamed?

 

[ahblaza]

How do you know which sub distance is more accurate? Maybe you missed what I typed with all the back and forth about what exactly chooses the initial xover setting, but I'm pretty sure I explained how the sub [strike]distance[/strike] delay measurement is not just the physical distance, but also the additional electrical delay, which is particularly great with a consumer subwoofer's internal EQ/DSP. (Or in my case with a tapped horn, it thinks it's over a zip code or two.)

Some of my measurements (Full Calib) set the sub at twenty + feet on several ocassions, I don't care about the electrical delay, that's rediculous with distances like that

 

[jostenmeat]

Some of my measurements (Full Calib) set the sub at twenty + feet on several ocassions, I don't care about the electrical delay, that's rediculous with distances like that

No, it is not.

Trust me.

If there is just only one thing you can truly trust with Audyssey technology, it is most definitely "distance". Without a doubt.

edit: do you realize that 20ft worth of distance is well under 0.02 second worth of time (using 1,126 ft/s at sea level)?

If your sub was a DIY direct radiating without its own internal DSP/EQ (all the prebuilt consumer models worth having all have it btw, SVS, HSU, JL, whoever, that's one of the nice things you forgot you had when you go DIY), ok maybe you can freak out over 0.02 second, but otherwise, all experts agree with me on this one.

 

[fuzz092888]

Which do you think is the best value as 100% HT processor for a 7.1 system, but also has Pro capability?

Definitely not the Marantz. If I were buying a new receiver right now for HT only my shortlist would be Denon or Onkyo and I'd take a look at Pioneer. I love Marantz, but for strictly HT processing I'd definitely pass. They lack the fancy video processors and RC, along with a multitude of other features, but I do love how they sound.

Are all available target curves available in any mode?

Since I admitted I do not know Denon all that well and I just discounted Marantz I'll stick with Onkyo. You mean between movie and music? Yes, on the models I noted both curves or off are available. The only ones that I believe aren't available if you have audyssey off are the special audyssey processing modes.

Do any have Dolby Volume? (If so, is there a snowball's hell in chance it is usable on top of Audyssey?)

For the Onkyo models, yes and yes.

Can the available target curves possibly be defaulted to certain modes and/or inputs easily?

Well, I think it's pretty easy. It's just a pain in the butt. You have to push the button for each source and then go to source setup in the menu and select which target curve you want. Over and over for all the sources you use. Easy, but it'll take couple minutes. More annoying than anything.

Has Onkyo finally got rid of the automatic (without option to permanently defeat) DRC flagging of True-HD when bitstreamed?

I had to go double check because I haven't bitstreamed over HDMI in a long time. I've been using the analog outs on my BD players and the multi-channel ins ever since I've had this receiver. No they have not fixed it, you have to go in and defeat it every single time.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks Alex, you were able to answer more than I was anticipating. The most important features for me are definitely RC and other related post processing. VP I do not care about, unless it was a true color mgmt system, which we won't ever see in a receiver, not in my lifetime, and they shouldn't do that anyway.

It is not easy for me to find out which Onkyo receivers are Pro capable. The Audyssey site does not have a filter for it that I can easily find, which doesn't surprise me, as well it's for "pros".

[/HIJACK]

Thanks for allowing me that liberty, ahblaza.

When you ask about Dyn vol/eq, well, I tried looking through the OP, and I looked quickly at your profile, I can't see immediately what receiver you're using, but if you happen to have Dolby Volume, I would try that first, and the reason for that is because some years ago M Code here said it was the better tech for this application, in this regard, and whatever he says I pretty much take as fact.

Also: regarding distance, even TLS Guy said the distance function of Audyssey works well, and he's one of the detractors of this tech, so take that FWIW.

 

[ahblaza]

No, it is not.

Trust me.

If there is just only one thing you can truly trust with Audyssey technology, it is most definitely "distance". Without a doubt.

edit: do you realize that 20ft worth of distance is well under 0.02 second worth of time (using 1,126 ft/s at sea level)?

If your sub was a DIY direct radiating without its own internal DSP/EQ (all the prebuilt consumer models worth having all have it btw, SVS, HSU, JL, whoever, that's one of the nice things you forgot you had when you go DIY), ok maybe you can freak out over 0.02 second, but otherwise, all experts agree with me on this one.

Explain to me why when I level match all speakers to 75dB prior to Audyssey calibration that every time the sub is set at 14 feet, every time, spot on. I got that tip of level matching speakers prior to calibration from one of your links that I continued to link to and from. It descibes that exact anomally of sub distance being way off, this comes from AVS forums where someone named Jerry has helped many people understand Audyssey as he has some affiliation with Audyssey. I will try and find the link where this is discussed. All experts agree, that makes me feel so much better now

 

[jostenmeat]

Explain to me why when I level match all speakers to 75dB prior to Audyssey calibration that every time the sub is set at 14 feet, every time, spot on. I got that tip of level matching speakers prior to calibration from one of your links that I continued to link to and from. It descibes that exact anomally of sub distance being way off, this comes from AVS forums where someone named Jerry has helped many people understand Audyssey as he has some affiliation with Audyssey. I will try and find the link where this is discussed. All experts agree, that makes me feel so much better now

This is definitely news to me.

I've never once have come across an expert that said that Audyssey was in any way inaccurate with measuring delay, and that includes even the detractors.

I tried to find the post by Founder and CTO of Audyssey when he explained the better than 0.1' tolerance, but I cannot find it; I'm just as unsuccessful as before.

I look forward to having you teach me about the inaccuracy of this particular feature, because as you have already seen me say, this was the one thing that everyone agreed on in the past, in my readings, between fans and detractors alike.

edit: to answer the question . . . so you were getting approximately a 6' ft difference in readings between pre-75db setting and not? IOW, a .005 sec difference is read.

I wonder which frequencies Audyssey is listening for when determining delay, or if it's a sum/average of various frequencies. Because maybe a different SPL level gives you different modal excitement/energy/ringing/something that could account for this difference. For instance, is your subwoofer sitting in a corner without any room treatments involved? I'm just grasping for straws, I would definitely ask Audyssey about this, and not me!

 

[ahblaza]

Thanks Alex, you were able to answer more than I was anticipating. The most important features for me are definitely RC and other related post processing. VP I do not care about, unless it was a true color mgmt system, which we won't ever see in a receiver, not in my lifetime, and they shouldn't do that anyway.

It is not easy for me to find out which Onkyo receivers are Pro capable. The Audyssey site does not have a filter for it that I can easily find, which doesn't surprise me, as well it's for "pros".

[/HIJACK]

Thanks for allowing me that liberty, ahblaza.

When you ask about Dyn vol/eq, well, I tried looking through the OP, and I looked quickly at your profile, I can't see immediately what receiver you're using, but if you happen to have Dolby Volume, I would try that first, and the reason for that is because some years ago M Code here said it was the better tech for this application, in this regard, and whatever he says I pretty much take as fact.

Also: regarding distance, even TLS Guy said the distance function of Audyssey works well, and he's one of the detractors of this tech, so take that FWIW.

I'm starting to see your point and understanding what you are saying, no malice intended, I'm just not sold on Audyssey, and neither is TLS (mark), but he did tell me that it is useful for speaker configuration, levels and distance, and I'm hearing what your saying now with an open mind, I was a bit biased with my decisions and I apologize if I came off a bit brash, that is not me, thank you for the input, seriously. I have an Onkyo 809, was considering an upgrade to the 818 for the XT32 but decided it's just not that important to me. I basically use the 809 as a pre-pro, it's amps see no action, but have been thinking of adding some rears and may use the 809 amp for those. Fuzz has forced me to get the new rears (inside joke) Thanks again

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm starting to see your point and understanding what you are saying, no malice intended, I'm just not sold on Audyssey, and neither is TLS (mark), but he did tell me that it is useful for speaker configuration, levels and distance, and I'm hearing what your saying now with an open mind, I was a bit biased with my decisions and I apologize if I came off a bit brash, that is not me, thank you for the input, seriously. I have an Onkyo 809, was considering an upgrade to the 818 for the XT32 but decided it's just not that important to me. I basically use the 809 as a pre-pro, it's amps see no action, but have been thinking of adding some rears and may use the 809 amp for those. Fuzz has forced me to get the new rears (inside joke) Thanks again

Speaking of, did you contact John/decide which one's you were interested in? I remember you saying something about the RC-4's. Are those still the one's you're interested in?

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm starting to see your point and understanding what you are saying, no malice intended, I'm just not sold on Audyssey, and neither is TLS (mark), but he did tell me that it is useful for speaker configuration, levels and distance, and I'm hearing what your saying now with an open mind, I was a bit biased with my decisions and I apologize if I came off a bit brash, that is not me, thank you for the input, seriously. I have an Onkyo 809, was considering an upgrade to the 818 for the XT32 but decided it's just not that important to me. I basically use the 809 as a pre-pro, it's amps see no action, but have been thinking of adding some rears and may use the 809 amp for those. Fuzz has forced me to get the new rears (inside joke) Thanks again

I am now no longer as well read about Audyssey as I used to be (I think I was probably the very first fanboi at AH!), but if my current impression holds any validity (questionable, please confirm for yourself), I would personally aim for Audyssey Pro over XT32-only as you've been seeing me talk about here. You get 32 positions to measure (!! Hope you got a long session of quiet!!), where you can see what is going with on graphs on a laptop, have more tailoring options, and don't have any unwanted midrange/dialogue bump, or whatever the greatest complaint by the experts could be. If Doctor Mark tried the Pro version, I would not be all that surprised if he gave it a thumbs up. I know gene has played with it on occasion, the Pro version, maybe we should start looking up his articles.

Anyway, if I see some steal of a Pro capable unit with preouts (my needs are very minimal, likely more minimal than yours), I'll let you know. The kit does cost for sure, but if there is something that is even remotely close to the $450 of the non-preout-2312, I'm guessing you could afford it all if you wanted. We would end up holding each others hands a lot probably, when dealing with it.

edit: Not finding the PRO version by Gene, though there is at least one done by someone else for AH, quite a long time ago. I see other Audyssey article(s) by him, but I don't yet see that they are the Pro version, will have to look into it.

another edit: Wait, I'm pretty sure he runs that crazy mothership of a processor, the Denon AVP or something, and I've just got to imagine that he must be running Pro on it. I'd be surprised if he wasn't.

 

[fuzz092888]

I read this thread about the pro kit

Audyssey Pro Installer Kit - Demystified! - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

I also found this place that supposedly sells it:

Audyssey MultEQ Pro Calibration Kit

Are you saying it is hard to find Pro capable units? Because it's definitely not difficult.

 

[jostenmeat]

I read this thread about the pro kit

Audyssey Pro Installer Kit - Demystified! - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

I also found this place that supposedly sells it:

Audyssey MultEQ Pro Calibration Kit

Are you saying it is hard to find Pro capable units? Because it's definitely not difficult.

Both bookmarked. I am not saying that it's hard to find Pro capable units; I could've recited every* one that had it to you, if this was say, I dunno, 4 years ago. It was expensive to be had, back then, like I said, $1600 was the lowest possible price, before the kit itself.

It wasn't really on my radar until I just read today, thanks to our discussion, that it can be had for only $450!! Just no preouts. So naturally I want to know how close I can come to $450, but with preouts, and when I see what might be close, I'll want to look into the "ins and outs".

 

[fuzz092888]

You shouldn't be spending over $600 for an installer ready AVR with preouts and if you look hard you could probably spend somewhere in the $300 range.

$699.99

MARANTZ SR6006 Home theater receiver 3D-ready HDMI AirPlay | Accessories4less

$449.99

DENON AVR-2312CI 7.2 Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

$549.99

DENON AVR-2313CI 7.2 4K & 3D Pass Through Networking Receiver | Accessories4less

$569.99

DENON AVR-3312CI 7.2 Integrated Network A/V Surround Receiver w/AirPlay | Accessories4less

Good deals on ebay as well:

denon 3311 | eBay

denon 3808 | eBay

onkyo PR-SC886P | eBay