Is there a decided advantage to separate amp/preamp/processor vs. integrated receiver

[slipperybidness]

That works, but you're wasting resources. There are certainly some pretty good (and very cheap) AVR receivers out there today.

There is, however, still a major reason why it isn't the best way to go. First, with the receiver, you *are* paying for the amps - whether you use them or not. You can figure that the cost is split about in half, so, if you buy a $300 receiver, you are getting a $150 pre / pro and a $150 power amp (instead of buying a $300 pre / pro). Second, combining the pre / pro and power amps in one chassis requires *technical* compromises.... which means that you don't quite get something as good as two $150 separate components.

Honestly, though, if you're more concerned with features than with absolute audio performance, at the bottom of the pile even a $150 receiver will do an awful lot - and will sound at least decent doing it..... combining that with a good power amp will sound pretty good right away, and you can upgrade the receiver to a good pre / pro later (and put the receiver in the den or the basement). A $500 pre / pro will almost certainly sound better than the processor section of a $500 receiver, but there simply aren't any $150 pre / pros - and there are $150 receivers.

But, how many of those $300 receivers have pre-outs? Do any of them? And if they do, are they robust enough to drive the input stage on an average amp? Now, from a lot of info I've read, it does seem that Emotiva amps are perhaps designed to play nice with the less-robust pre-outs that are common on low end receivers.

It is pretty common practice to let the receiver run the surrounds and center and add a very robust 2 channel amp for the L/R only. In that type of configuration, I would not say you are "wasting resources", but have rather made a decision on how you would like to allocate resources (more money on the front L/R). Also, with the internal amps, you have the option to re-use the receiver at a later time, for a bedroom setup for example. But if you only have pre/pro, then that means you can't repurpose the system without another amp.

All that being said, you really can't go wrong with quality amplification. As you said, the tech is mature. Invest in a powerhouse amp from the beginning and you will know that you can handle any speakers you could ever want and will most likely be set in the power department for the next 20 years or more.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As we all know, if you buy 100,000 ICs you'll likely get a better price than if you buy 1000. And when you are dealing really large volume you can often make very good deals with suppliers or even directly to the manufacturer in some cases.

BTW, is a Denon 3312 really a piece of junk?
Someone in a recent thread got one for $600 and they seem happy.

Steve

A 3312 on Amazon is $800. MSRP is $1100. The selling dealer on Amazon happens to be my local B&M dealer.

Nice feature set. If the 3312 was available as a $500 pre/pro I would have probably gone for it. The amps look like junk; no 4-ohm rating. OK for surrounds, I suppose. No specs on the pre-amp outputs; maybe okay, but no way to tell without testing.

 

[slipperybidness]

My Personal Setups

For me, I have Pioneer Elite receiver in the living room. For living room / family room, I prefer the receivers. It's less cables and wires to deal with, it does the job, and sounds good.

Now, for my man-cave / workshop, I don't care so much about cables etc, and there aren't a lot of guests that even get to go in there. For that, I have an Emotiva USP-1 and XDA-1 and power comes from a Parasound 1206 (I love the flexibility of this amp). I also switch in a Bottlehead Quickie preamp sometimes and am currently putting together a Bob Latino Dynaco ST-70 tube amp.

 

[sholling]

A 3312 on Amazon is $800. MSRP is $1100. The selling dealer on Amazon happens to be my local B&M dealer.

Nice feature set. If the 3312 was available as a $500 pre/pro I would have probably gone for it. The amps look like junk; no 4-ohm rating. OK for surrounds, I suppose. No specs on the pre-amp outputs; maybe okay, but no way to tell without testing.

"Junk"? That begs the question of how they sound when driving 8 ohm average sensitivity speakers at normal listening levels? That is after all is said and done the bottom line and I suspect that in an A/B test most of us wouldn't be able to hear the difference between that Denon "junk" and wondrous megabuck separates because an amp adds nothing to the sound except amplification. As long as it drives your speakers at the volumes that you desire without distortion and without melting down then it's mission accomplished.

There is a place for external amps (I own some myself) but unless they are driving some exotic low sensitivity 4 ohm speakers to deafening levels D) they really aren't needed by most people - just us audionut-cases.

 

[Irvrobinson]

"Junk"? That begs the question of how they sound when driving 8 ohm average sensitivity speakers at normal listening levels? That is after all is said and done the bottom line and I suspect that in an A/B test most of us wouldn't be able to hear the difference between that Denon "junk" and wondrous megabuck separates because an amp adds nothing to the sound except amplification. As long as it drives your speakers at the volumes that you desire without distortion and without melting down then it's mission accomplished.

There is a place for external amps (I own some myself) but unless they are driving some exotic low sensitivity 4 ohm speakers to deafening levels D) they really aren't needed by most people - just us audionut-cases.

Alright, perhaps I turned up the contrast a bit too much. I have to agree that for "most people" a product like Denon isn't so bad. Nonetheless, when I look inside an AVR I see so many compromises I can't bring myself to buy another one. It's sort of like eating at a bad fast food restaurant. Yeah, it's cheap, but I'll take a pass, thanks.

 

[monkish54]

This thread has been much much too general. You can't say separates are always better or worse. Again, the amp section in my AVR is stellar. In fact, it has a better FR than every Emotiva amp I have looked at.

If one one intends to go stereo and only needs 110 watts into 8 ohms, it would be pointless to go separates instead of shelling out 500 for a refurb SR 6004. That said, if one needs more power, one could step up to a much more expensive receiver (look for specs on the amp section) or go separates. Depending on the receiver and separates, separates could have an advantage. Separates generally dish out more power.

Generally, I recommend getting a decent receiver and using an external amp.

 

[PENG]

I love my separates, they are not the best or most expensive ones but they are also not cheap. Having said that, I have no problem admitting I cannot hear the difference between any of them and my old Denon AVR-3805. I have no regret having spent on things that don't make audible improvements because like ADTG said, it is about need vs desire. I just hope people who spend money on separates for the sake of audible improvements would consider spending on acquiring better quality media sources and speakers first. Now of course I am not talking about entry level AVR vs separates. I am talking about the likes of the AVR-3312, SR-600X, Yamaha RX-A20XX and above. With those class of AVRs+2 or 3 channel power amp , I would bet 99% of the population will not be able to single them out from 2X more expensive separates 99% of the time in blind comparison sessions. People who are in the business to sell preamp, prepro and power amps will of course tell you a different story, unless they are crazy, or stupidly honest.

 

[Ground Beef]

You guys all bring up some really really great points, and I really can't express how much I appreciate the input...I'm going to do some more research on this forum. I really agree that it depends on the needs of the consumer...my number 1 need is to get a pre/pro or avr that has 5+ HDMI inputs, I'm sick of using an HDMI switch that works intermittently, and having TOSLINK cables running all over God's green earth. I'm going to be powering B&W DM603 S2's up front, so I don't think I'd need much external power...it would be nice, though, to have an external amp do some of the heavy lifting as opposed to an AVR.

So, net net, I am no closer to making a decision, but I have a lot more food for thought.

GB

 

[Valicious]

I am going to be powering a pair of Paradigm Monitor 7s, and I plan on listening to music exclusively from my computer. I have a $200 Asus Xonar STX sound card that has a pretty amazing DAC built into it, but I'm not sure if this will help with speaker audio. This is and will always be a stereo setup only.
I was all set to buy an HK 3490 receiver for $300, but going with separates just seems more and more appealing the more I read about it. What do you guys think? I'm pretty good at scouring craigslist and ebay for deals, but I'm not even sure what separates I would need. What are some models/specs I should keep an eye out for?
Am I right in thinking that separates would be (Computer/Xonar) > Preamp > Amp > Speakers ?

Call it silly, but I'd still really like physical knobs to adjust things like volume. It's just so....satisfying...

 

[Rickster71]

Is there a decided advantage to separates?
Of course there is. Someone went to an awful lot of trouble to make those separate black boxes.

The question really is... do you need them?
It comes down to the size of the area you need to fill with sound, the speaker load, and if you require realistic sound levels.

If you do have a large room, like to listen loud, and have speakers that present a difficult load, then I'd suggest separates.
Power transistors need heat dissipation in the form of large heat sinks. Separates have the needed extra real estate to fit larger heat sinks.
Modern AVRs are great, however they are a compromise for some.

Just my $0.02

 

[markw]

From reading this thread, it seems that the only real advantge separates might have over an all-in-one receiver is power.

Now, if one buys a receiver that doesn't have pre-outs, then this really is a problem, depending on the speakers involved. That basically translate to not being able to buy a big hunka arc-welding capable power amp.

But, if one pays a bit more for tat receiver and goes for a receiver with preamp outs, that problem disappears like my first wife's brother when it came time to pay the restaurant check. Add to that the fact that along with those RCA jacks you generally get some slightly better performance and some additional features (that you may or may not need) than an entry level receiver provides, and it all works out.

So, the moral here is don't cheap out if you want to be able to grow your system. Go a bit upscale to get the features you need for expansion. Besides, not to sound snotty, but if you have to go for an entry-level receiver to begin with, you really aren't in any position to be even thinking about separates anyway

 

[cpp]

I don't know I own both and I like both and I still have a few extra pre/amps ( CJ & ARC) in the closet. Can I tell the difference in sound in my online systems, I really can't say I ever got down to doing an AB between my systems or components but I do know I like the sound that comes out of each so I guess I really don't care these days. I just like audio in general and what ever provides me that pleasure at the time I push the power button is the one I like. It's all about the music and whatever ones wants to use to get there is okay by me.

 

[PENG]

I just like audio in general and what ever provides me that pleasure at the time I push the power button is the one I like. It's all about the music and whatever ones wants to use to get there is okay by me.

I have one HT, and 3 audio only systems, all separates except one of the 2 channel audio system is base on an AVR-3805. I felt pretty much the same way, like you said the button I push is the one I like, sound funny but very true for me. I honestly cannot tell if my Marantz HT separate system sounds better than my ex 4308, other family members told me they all sound good but the same to them, yet I will likely be going for the AV8801 hopefully soon.

 

[3db]

I like separates for a few reasons.
1 AVR's tend to have break down issues

I only take issue with statement number 1. Itssimply not true. Other than Onkyo which suffers from shoddy quality, all other receivers have been very reliable. I have one over ten years old that is till working great. The other is 5 years old with no signs of quitting. Take a poll and see how many people have receivers and how many people have had to replace them.

 

[Steve81]

Take a poll and see how many people have receivers and how many people have had to replace them.

I've got an HK in my bedroom still ticking after six years or so; the Onkyo in my main setup is a refurb I've had for a couple years now. Some days I wish it would die to give me an excuse to buy new toys, but beyond that it's been reasonably reliable. I do have a fan on the Onk though, so that helps keep things cool.

 

[markw]

Well, I've been running a Denon 2802 since early 2003 with no issues.

But, I did have to have the dial restrung and the tuner aligned on my Marantz 2230. Does that count?

Actually, a receiver is just a pre/pro with a tuner slapped on one side and a few power amps on the other.

I guess it's all in the luck of the draw. I had a NIB Panny Blu-ray player (BDP-60?) that died after 8 months and they couldn't fix it or replace it with a working one. ...and everyone swears by Panasomic.

 

[lsiberian]

I like separates for a few reasons.
1 AVR's tend to have break down issues

I only take issue with statement number 1. Itssimply not true. Other than Onkyo which suffers from shoddy quality, all other receivers have been very reliable. I have one over ten years old that is till working great. The other is 5 years old with no signs of quitting. Take a poll and see how many people have receivers and how many people have had to replace them.

My Onkyo runs just fine. If you don't stick your receiver in a wooden box it's amazing how much longer it lasts.

Open racks make electronics last forever it seems.

 

[3db]

I have to disagree with the others, economies of scale allow manufacturers to produce $600 AVRs with inaudible differences from most pre/pros and with cutting edge features not found in pro/pros in the same price class. It also saves you some money by allowing you to use the AVR's amps to power the surrounds. The pre/pro spec sheet may look better but how much of what you think you hear are real differences and how much is "holy crap it's expensive" placebo effect. In my opinion the placebo effect is there. I like Emotiva products as much as the next customer but I just don't see the value with a pre/pro.

Look at the specs of the Advantage series from Yamaha and that serieswill easily shame most boutique brand pre/pros out there.

 

[3db]

The point about using the AVR amps for surrounds is a good one. The economies of scale part probably isn't. AVR makers are buying the same IC and electrical components from suppliers as everyone else. IMO, a $600 7.1 AVR is mostly a box full of cheap junk. As for audibility, it ain't the pre/pro that seems to make a difference, it's the separate amps and the AVR's ability to drive those amps.

Wow, Apparently your somewhat misguided in your outlook towards AVRs. Most people blame an AVR for cheap quality because they:

1.) Stick their AVRS in a confined enclosure with next to little airflow and wonder why it died prematurely.
2.) Choose speakers whose load impedance is beyond the AVRs intended design capabilities.
3.) Try to fill overlty large rooms with high volumes..again something an AVR is not designed for.

Its like owning a corvette to try and pull cars out of ditches.....it won't last long... applies to item 2 and 3.

There is clearly good reasons to use separate power amps. However these reasons preclude "cheap junk" which they are not. . Its very clear from this thread and others like it that AVRs are reliable and will be if they are uswed within their intended design goals.

 

[Rickster71]

I'd still like to contend that most of the added benefit of separates lies with the amp.
An amp in a separate box has the added real estate for larger heatsinks to accommodate more powerful transistors, and higher voltage / larger caps.
It's able to dissipate the added heat if/when it's called upon to play into a 4-ohm load for extended lengths of time.
Me thinks it's more of a case for, "The right tool for the job" and not a pissing contest.