Is there a decided advantage to separate amp/preamp/processor vs. integrated receiver

[Ground Beef]

I've dabbled in Home Theater stuff for a while now and was looking to upgrade.

I have been searching the forums to see if there are any threads discussing this, but could not find any (I'm sure they're out there, I'm probably just looking in the wrong place). What's the main advantage of going with a separate processor/preamp/amp combo (i.e. Emotiva UMC-200 and Emotiva XPA-5) versus just buying an integrated receiver like the Onkyo TX-NR818...I mean besides the obvious price difference and power output. Do the Emotiva components process the AV stuff better? I'm learning a lot here in this community, and hope to learn some more. Thanks for your input!

Ground Beef

 

[j_garcia]

The DISTINCT advantage is, you will generally not likely find a receiver that has as much actual power as the XPA-5. Plus, you keep the amp and upgrade the pre as needed. You don't have to use a preamp though, you can use any receiver with preamp outs as the pre.

 

[Ground Beef]

J-

That totally makes sense...

How about from a 'features' perspective? I was looking at the Onkyo and it appears that does everything short of taking out the trash for you...

I'm really looking forward to using HDMI as both my video and audio interconnects and getting rid of my optical cable and HDMI switch. I guess the separate components also look better.

Do the separate components sound better than the integrated setup?

GB

 

[j_garcia]

There are differences between processors and the implementation, the DACs used etc.., but "better" is a hard thing to nail down. I'd say at the level of the 818, the differences will probably be minor in sound quality, but can't say for sure since I haven't heard the Emotiva...yet I expect to be ordering mine soon. Speakers will make a bigger difference than you are likely to hear between processors at about the same level.

 

[sholling]

For most people the only real world advantage to separates (besides bragging rights ) is if you need to pump more power into 5-7 channels than a receiver can put out. A receiver like the TX-NR818 will usually have more features and/or more advanced versions of the same features than a pre/pro of the same price. That's why I use an Onkyo TX-NR809 for a preamp/processor and to drive my rear surrounds.

Onkyos are usually the powerhouses of their price classes and that 818 will likely pump out close to the full 135w into two channels. I don't have any measurements available but based on past products that probably drops to 75-80wpc into 5 and 50ish into 7 which is still better than some of the competition. Now does it really matter? It's pretty rare that a movie needs close to the full rated power of a receiver fed into all 5 or 7 channels at once so probably not for most of us. There was an article covering real world usage and all channels driven on the main site but I can't seem to find it.

This brings us to the advantages of external amps. First is the ability of an Emotiva amp to drive its full rated power into every channel at once. The second is the ability to drive low impedance speakers that challenge many receivers. The third is a stack of Emos look cool.

 

[ImcLoud]

I like separates for a few reasons.
1 AVR's tend to have break down issues
2 Of course power, no avr puts out 200x5 with all channels driven
3 looks, I like how a bunch of matching components look in the rack
4 Upgrading - with the emo line you get 25-40% off your upgrade and keep your old processor
5 if you buy an avr today, in 6 months there will be a new one to replace it, whether its a new hdmi version, or a new type of room eq, whatever something new will be out in 6 months bigger and better...

Now if companies like emotiva and outlaw didnt exist, separates would be out of reach for most people but you can get a UMC200 and UPA5 for under $1000, thats not a bad deal...

If you dont care about matching components, than pick up a xpa3 and an avr with preouts like the 709 for $400, run your surrounds off the avr and front 3 off the amp, the avr will easily power the back 2-4 and will have much less wear and tear.... PLus this allows you to have sound while you upgrade if you can not afford to do it all at once..

As far as sounding better, I do notice a difference, it opens up the sound, and gives you much more room for playing loud with no chance of clipping, plus lets not forget you can pretty much choose whichever speakers you want since you don't have to worry about getting some efficient 8 ohm speakers, you can get 86db 4 ohms if you like..

 

[Irvrobinson]

I like separates for a few reasons.
1 AVR's tend to have break down issues
2 Of course power, no avr puts out 200x5 with all channels driven
3 looks, I like how a bunch of matching components look in the rack
4 Upgrading - with the emo line you get 25-40% off your upgrade and keep your old processor
5 if you buy an avr today, in 6 months there will be a new one to replace it, whether its a new hdmi version, or a new type of room eq, whatever something new will be out in 6 months bigger and better...

Now if companies like emotiva and outlaw didnt exist, separates would be out of reach for most people but you can get a UMC200 and UPA5 for under $1000, thats not a bad deal...

If you dont care about matching components, than pick up a xpa3 and an avr with preouts like the 709 for $400, run your surrounds off the avr and front 3 off the amp, the avr will easily power the back 2-4 and will have much less wear and tear.... PLus this allows you to have sound while you upgrade if you can not afford to do it all at once..

As far as sounding better, I do notice a difference, it opens up the sound, and gives you much more room for playing loud with no chance of clipping, plus lets not forget you can pretty much choose whichever speakers you want since you don't have to worry about getting some efficient 8 ohm speakers, you can get 86db 4 ohms if you like..

You got it right. The Irvs agree.

 

[ImcLoud]

You got it right. The Irvs agree.

Thank you Irv 1 {I gave you Irv 1 because you have been a member longer}

 

[JerryLove]

Thank you Irv 1 {I gave you Irv 1 because you have been a member longer}

Then you can be Irv "A". (Futurama reference)

 

[ImcLoud]

Then you can be Irv "A". (Futurama reference)

well done Jerry, well done...

 

[Ground Beef]

You guys crack me up...thanks for the great information, it will be really helpful in my decision making process. I'm leaning towards separates, but am now toying with the AVR/Amp combo.

 

[KeithL]

The ability to upgrade the two parts separately is a bigger deal than you think - especially if you shell out for a *good* power amp. Surround sound is an evolving technology - and will continue to be for the forseeable future. In contrast, power amps are a pretty mature technology....

The best cutting edge pre / pro from ten years ago is almost totally obsolete. Every year or two Dolby and DTS come out with new surround-sound formats, and that isn't going to stop. In five years it'll be smell-o-vision, or 14 channels, or 5-d, or satellite video streaming, or whatever. We're now at HDMI 1.4a; do you really think we won't see HDMI 1.6, or HDMI 2.0 eventually? When they finally come along you *will* need to upgrade your pre / pro.

In contrast, the great sounding power amp you bought ten years ago is *still* a great sounding two-channel power amp. Power amps get smaller, and maybe lighter, and certainly you can get more channels in one box today, but there's nothing much to improve in how a great sounding power amp sounds. You can keep the great stereo amp you bought ten years ago, add another five channel amp, and use it as the center of a great new 7.1 system.

Of course, if you decide to step up to more power, then you *can* upgrade the power amp separately (or move your old amp to the rear channels and buy a bigger one for the fronts).

With separate components you get both the flexibility to upgrade or change them separately, *and* the likelihood that both will be better to begin with - which gives you both better performance today *and* better long-term investment value with separates.

J-

That totally makes sense...

How about from a 'features' perspective? I was looking at the Onkyo and it appears that does everything short of taking out the trash for you...

I'm really looking forward to using HDMI as both my video and audio interconnects and getting rid of my optical cable and HDMI switch. I guess the separate components also look better.

Do the separate components sound better than the integrated setup?

GB

 

[KeithL]

That works, but you're wasting resources. There are certainly some pretty good (and very cheap) AVR receivers out there today.

There is, however, still a major reason why it isn't the best way to go. First, with the receiver, you *are* paying for the amps - whether you use them or not. You can figure that the cost is split about in half, so, if you buy a $300 receiver, you are getting a $150 pre / pro and a $150 power amp (instead of buying a $300 pre / pro). Second, combining the pre / pro and power amps in one chassis requires *technical* compromises.... which means that you don't quite get something as good as two $150 separate components.

Honestly, though, if you're more concerned with features than with absolute audio performance, at the bottom of the pile even a $150 receiver will do an awful lot - and will sound at least decent doing it..... combining that with a good power amp will sound pretty good right away, and you can upgrade the receiver to a good pre / pro later (and put the receiver in the den or the basement). A $500 pre / pro will almost certainly sound better than the processor section of a $500 receiver, but there simply aren't any $150 pre / pros - and there are $150 receivers.

You guys crack me up...thanks for the great information, it will be really helpful in my decision making process. I'm leaning towards separates, but am now toying with the AVR/Amp combo.

 

[monkish54]

It really depends on the AVR, in my opinion. For the most part, separates have more power, better FR, etc. That said, my AVR has a very good amp section albeit at the expense of features. I could have spent more to get an equally good amp and all the cool features, but I figured I'd hold out for an OPPO.

The Audioholics Showcase Home actually uses the SR 6004!

Linky

I've heard very poor things about Onkyo. They overheat and I've heard their amps are lackluster. That doesn't surprise me. Like you said, it does everything but take out your trash. Gotta compromise somewhere.

you can get 86db 4 ohms if you like..

I did! well...84.5/1 watt/1 M

Keith: You'll be happy to know when I move my Phil 2s into a dedicated 2 channel room, I'll be buying separates. Emotiva is at the top of my list. I want more power and I'm going to use my receiver to power my HT build as they are VERY sensitive.

 

[Irvrobinson]

There is, however, still a major reason why it isn't the best way to go. First, with the receiver, you *are* paying for the amps - whether you use them or not. You can figure that the cost is split about in half, so, if you buy a $300 receiver, you are getting a $150 pre / pro and a $150 power amp (instead of buying a $300 pre / pro). Second, combining the pre / pro and power amps in one chassis requires *technical* compromises.... which means that you don't quite get something as good as two $150 separate components.

Well said. This is why I went with a pre / pro and separate amp this time around for my video system. I was only upgrading to get the right HDMI configuration, and the design compromises inherent in a 7.1 AVR make me dizzy, especially when I'm only using two of the seven amp channels.

 

[sholling]

I have to disagree with the others, economies of scale allow manufacturers to produce $600 AVRs with inaudible differences from most pre/pros and with cutting edge features not found in pro/pros in the same price class. It also saves you some money by allowing you to use the AVR's amps to power the surrounds. The pre/pro spec sheet may look better but how much of what you think you hear are real differences and how much is "holy crap it's expensive" placebo effect. In my opinion the placebo effect is there. I like Emotiva products as much as the next customer but I just don't see the value with a pre/pro.

 

[ImcLoud]

I just don't see the value with a pre/pro.

He just explained it, so look again, maybe you will se it this time... lol

 

[avnetguy]

He just explained it, so look again, maybe you will se it this time... lol

I'm with sholling on this, AVR will work fine for most and you won't hear a difference. If you get one with pre-outs you can always add an amp but you likely won't need it.

And if you're concerned with "future proofing", the best thing is to be a smart consumer and keep as much money in your pocket as possible. In other words, buy last year's model at a huge discount or the open box, even refurb if you like that route.

Steve

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have to disagree with the others, economies of scale allow manufacturers to produce $600 AVRs with inaudible differences from most pre/pros and with cutting edge features not found in pro/pros in the same price class. It also saves you some money by allowing you to use the AVR's amps to power the surrounds. The pre/pro spec sheet may look better but how much of what you think you hear are real differences and how much is "holy crap it's expensive" placebo effect. In my opinion the placebo effect is there. I like Emotiva products as much as the next customer but I just don't see the value with a pre/pro.

The point about using the AVR amps for surrounds is a good one. The economies of scale part probably isn't. AVR makers are buying the same IC and electrical components from suppliers as everyone else. IMO, a $600 7.1 AVR is mostly a box full of cheap junk. As for audibility, it ain't the pre/pro that seems to make a difference, it's the separate amps and the AVR's ability to drive those amps.

 

[avnetguy]

The economies of scale part probably isn't. AVR makers are buying the same IC and electrical components from suppliers as everyone else. IMO, a $600 7.1 AVR is mostly a box full of cheap junk.

As we all know, if you buy 100,000 ICs you'll likely get a better price than if you buy 1000. And when you are dealing really large volume you can often make very good deals with suppliers or even directly to the manufacturer in some cases.

BTW, is a Denon 3312 really a piece of junk?
Someone in a recent thread got one for $600 and they seem happy.

Steve