moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
I've searched the threads and I didn't find an answer to this question:

Do you think power conditioners are worth buying? If so, what kind?
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I've searched the threads and I didn't find an answer to this question:

Do you think power conditioners are worth buying? If so, what kind?
That's a loaded question. There are many people who say they don't do anything and that you should have clean power etc etc.

Then there are those that say they notice a huge difference and they couldn't live without them, they're the best things ever etc etc

All I can say is that my voltage is pretty darn steady, it almost never deviates from 60hz, and I didn't believe it would do anything for me. I bought one anyways just to see how it would go. I ended up noticing a significant difference in noise through my tweeters when the amps were plugged into it, but other than that there have been no differences.

The reduced buzzing could be to any number of things, but it helped a little so I don't feel as though I wasted money, plus it protects against surges and voltage drops.

YMMV, but I'd say that if you don't have any noise through the tweeter and don't live in a 3rd world country where the power is super sketchy, or live in a place with a lot of brownouts, then they aren't necessary.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (Unless you're curious like me and also think they look cool :D)
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
There's a forum on this board more appropriate to this topic.

That said: There are a couple of different power issues to be discussed.

1) Under power (brown out): This can only be properly resolved with a UPS.
2) Irregularities: These are generally filtered out by the power-supply.
3) Dangerous spikes (surges): It seems worthwhile to put surge supression on any expensive electrical equipment. A whole-house system seems the best place to start, with added stips for the most sensitive or important pieces.

Even in my server room (which sits behing some serious power regulation equipment), the PDUs at least have fuses on them to prevent a surge originating in one piece of equipment from reaching another easily.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
There are a couple of different power issues to be discussed.

1) Under power (brown out): This can only be properly resolved with a UPS.
2) Irregularities: These are generally filtered out by the power-supply.
3) Dangerous spikes (surges): It seems worthwhile to put surge supression on any expensive electrical equipment. A whole-house system seems the best place to start, with added stips for the most sensitive or important pieces.
4) You have high levels of noise coming in on your power lines or the wiring in your house and you need an isolation transformer. Most people don't need one, but if you live in some selected spots (like near some military bases, broadcast antennae, etc) an isolation transformer may lower your noise level.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
4) You have high levels of noise coming in on your power lines or the wiring in your house and you need an isolation transformer. Most people don't need one, but if you live in some selected spots (like near some military bases, broadcast antennae, etc) an isolation transformer may lower your noise level.
That would have to be rather extreme to not be filtered by the transformer in the power supply.

Strictly speaking any true transformer, whether used to transfer signals or power, is isolating.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
One more thing to add is some power conditioner will sequence component turn on and I believe others will turn on secondary components when primary components are turned on. If you gear does not have 12V triggers, or if the "auto" position of your sub is unreliable, these can be nice features to add to your system.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
That would have to be rather extreme to not be filtered by the transformer in the power supply.

Strictly speaking any true transformer, whether used to transfer signals or power, is isolating.
There are situations that are extreme. I used to live in one. Also, while every transformer is in itself an isolation device, that doesn't mean that the rest of the device is designed to make its power transformer a good isolator. Power amplifiers are generally pretty good in this regard, but high-gain pre-amp circuits, especially non-balanced designs built from discrete components, may not be so good, and often aren't. The funny thing is that some of the best isolated and shielded devices out there are often AVRs, because they have so much crap inside of them that they only way they can show good performance at all is with lots of isolation and shielding.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
There's a forum on this board more appropriate to this topic.

That said: There are a couple of different power issues to be discussed.

1) Under power (brown out): This can only be properly resolved with a UPS.
2) Irregularities: These are generally filtered out by the power-supply.
3) Dangerous spikes (surges): It seems worthwhile to put surge supression on any expensive electrical equipment. A whole-house system seems the best place to start, with added stips for the most sensitive or important pieces.

Even in my server room (which sits behing some serious power regulation equipment), the PDUs at least have fuses on them to prevent a surge originating in one piece of equipment from reaching another easily.

Currently I have a $200 surge protected power bar from Panamax and all my gear is plugged into this. Is this enough to protect my gear? I am asking because you are talking about adding ""stips?" for the most sensitive or important pieces".

Somebody was also mentioned a 12V trigger. I am using a pioneer elite SC27 and it has 12V trigger X2.. Should I have this on? Currently it's off.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Currently I have a $200 surge protected power bar from Panamax and all my gear is plugged into this. Is this enough to protect my gear? I am asking because you are talking about adding ""stips?" for the most sensitive or important pieces".

Somebody was also mentioned a 12V trigger. I am using a pioneer elite SC27 and it has 12V trigger X2.. Should I have this on? Currently it's off.
The panamax is fine. No matter what you have your gear connected to, none of it will protect from a direct strike, or one that hits too closely to your home. If you don't know what a brownout is, then you probably don't have any issues with them in your area, so what you are using is probably adequate.

The 12v trigger is so that you can leave them "on" all the time (standby mode). Then when you turn on your receiver it automatically turns on the other component as well (usually an amp). When you shut the receiver off, then it automatically shuts off the component also.

They make smart strips that basically do the same thing. The fancier ones can time delay which components turn on so you don't have a huge inrush of current which could blow a breaker or damage something.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
Very nice.... So what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, those people who have crazy expensive amps like Pass etc... all they need is one strike and they're garbage? I thought that's what the surge protector is for.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Very nice.... So what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, those people who have crazy expensive amps like Pass etc... all they need is one strike and they're garbage? I thought that's what the surge protector is for.
Well if your house gets struck by lightening and you have no safety measures in place except a surge protector, well then yea everything will be toast.

No dinky surge protector can withstand a direct lightening strike. I'm 99.9999% positive my APC S15 would damn near melt if it got hit :D That's not what they're meant for. They're meant to protect against a sudden inrush of current due to other factors, but not the kind of power a lightening strike would deliver. You have to have some sort of whole home protection at the breaker box, lightening rod, etc if you want to survive one of those.
 
moves

moves

Audioholic Chief
True enough I've seen one of those surge protectors for the breaker box on Holmes on Homes :D
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Currently I have a $200 surge protected power bar from Panamax and all my gear is plugged into this. Is this enough to protect my gear? I am asking because you are talking about adding ""stips?" for the most sensitive or important pieces".

Somebody was also mentioned a 12V trigger. I am using a pioneer elite SC27 and it has 12V trigger X2.. Should I have this on? Currently it's off.
"strips" = "PDU with surge surpression" = "your Panamax Powerbar". (did I miss the "r"? Sorry)

Nothing protects from everything. If lightning comes through the window and hits your gear: it's toast. The chance of "toast" decreases as the extremity of the issue decreases.

I personally am a fan of a whole-house surge suppressor as well (esp if above-ground powerlines). Your electrical provider likely offers one.

I think more than that is likely overkill in the vast bulk of cases; though I do run certain gear on UPSs (mostly computers where dataloss is an issue and networking equipment where it's a pain; I don't think running amps on a UPS is necessarily good)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Very nice.... So what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, those people who have crazy expensive amps like Pass etc... all they need is one strike and they're garbage? I thought that's what the surge protector is for.
Nothing will protect you from 10 million volts plus, which is what a direct strike is.

However thunderstorms in the vicinity, can and do produce damaging spikes. Strip type protectors plugged into a wall outlet, provide a very low level of protection.

A good whole house unit is best.

However out here voltage fluctuations in thunderstorms and ice storms are very damaging to equipment that contain micro processors.

The best protection comes from whole house surge protection and battery UPS devices that go to battery backup in 1 to 5 msec of an out of range situation.

I have everything vulnerable protected this way, upstairs and down. Here where there are long lines from the power stations in western North Dakota going hundreds of miles across the Norther Plains, my UPS devices cut in frequently summer and winter.

Generally I would say people over estimate the stability of their power. Almost certainly it is a lot worse than they think.

My power company, who are a Touchstone cooperative have been good enough to monitor the situation with a recorder at my meter of a long periods. The results were not pretty and I suspect similar to most situations in the US.

In my view this is an issue not given the respect and attention warranted by most members.

Nothing is full proof, but you can protect against the majority of events that could do serious damage to expensive equipment.

If your grounding and general layout of your system is proper, then don't expect it to change your sound, this is not it's purpose. The purpose is to increase the reliability of your system and reduce expensive repair bills and the need to prematurely replace equipment. With a little thought that goal is easily achieved and worthwhile.
 
W

westom

Audioholic
I thought that's what the surge protector is for.
Devices that makes such surges irrelevant are completely different from devices, with same name, that do not even claim to provide that protection. Manufacturer spec numbers and other characteristics define gross differences.

Your $200 Panamax may have spec numbers similar to a $10 protector sold in Wal-Mart. These protectors do not claim to protect from destructive surges. And are so popular that some will pay $200 for it on a myth that price says it is better.

Surges that do damage find earth ground. If permitted inside a building, then nothing will stop that destructive hunt for earth. If connected to earth BEFORE entering, then that current need not go hunting inside. One difference between a 'whole house' protector and that Panamax is an essential low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meter') wire to earth. That short connection to earth defines an effective protector. Panamax has no such wire and will not even discuss earth ground.

Again, protection is never provided by any protector - 'whole house' or Panamax. A protector is a connecting device to what does protection - single point earth ground.

A destructive surge is maybe hundreds of thosuands of joules. Read spec numbers for Panamax. Maybe a thousand joules? How does that Panamax make hundreds of thousands of joules disappear? It doesn't. Sometimes it gives that surge even more paths to find earth destructively via nearby appliances.

Only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage is an earthed 'whole house' protector. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside in earth. Then a surge current flows to earth outside; not destructively inside.

Protection is not a protector. Protection defined by the quality of earth ground. Earth ground does protection only when a protector connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. That is only a 'whole house' protector. Then everything inside the house is protected - for tens or 100 times less money.

Anything that tries to stop or absorb a surge will create a high voltage. One 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) means a surge current (maybe 20,000 amps) creates a near zero voltage. Just another reason why facilities that cannot have damage from direct strikes routinely use a 'whole house' protector.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Westom's embarrassing public spanking, complete with him contradicting himself, his sources contradicting him, and links to exactly the claims and specs he claims don't exist can be found here

Schadenfreude fans enjoy...

And when you get to the last couple of pages an jneutron comes in? Awesome!

As to his post above? He fails reading comprehension.

westom said:
these protectors do not claim to protect from destructive surges.
"Protects equipment from electrical surges"
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The one trick pony is back.:eek:
I can't believe westcom is still banging his half-baked drum.:confused:

It's comical to see how he has slowly changed his tactics.
In the early days he spoke only of grounding, grounding, and only grounding.
Now he's thrown in whole house surge protection....the exact same thing he used to say "Did not work."
Thanks for the crazy trip down memory lane.:D
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
If you can't trust the manufacturer of the product being sold then... oh yea, you can't.

I've never heard of this most trusted name (which is odd, because I deal with protecting server and telcom hardware as part of my job). As far as I can tell, UL has no such program for surge suppressors (notice their lack of link).

Also: most UL grades are numbers, not letters (UL | UL Performance Verification Services)
 
Gordonj

Gordonj

Full Audioholic
And here is one more on buzz and hum associated with the interconnection of various types of systems. Please note that while this paper deals with prograde systems the theories still apply universally.

http://jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf

Hope that helps!

Gordon
 
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