Little help on a 20,000 Home Theater System please

[Tejay]

WOW Guys!

All this information is incredible and really helpful. I have a HUGE amount to digest and research.

One thing that is extremely confusing for me is projector / screen size / ratios.

I have been in showrooms that have the standard Epson, Sony or JVC projectors and had them running on 80 - 120 inch screens. The picture quality was lousy on all of them. They were dull, not bright, lacked colors that popped and were just un impressive to say the least.

The last HT company I talked with had the Digital Projection CINE 230-HC running on a 135" screen and it looked fantastic...thus my choice. Remember, I'm near sighted and more comfortable being closer to the screen than what's suggested.

Here is evidence of my inexperience and stupidly. I thought all Blu Ray movies were 16 X 9 and ran in 1920 X 1080 AND fit perfectly on the 16 X 9 screen.....guess not.

I do not have a preference but whatever I get I sure want it to fill up the entire screen without bars around it. I really could use some good advice here too please.

Finally just to answer a previous posters comments. The drawings I posted are exact for the room dimensions and what should be used for this projects planning. Also, I have been told to get really good tight bass the seats have to be on a wood platform rather than the concrete carpeted floor. Is this true? I'd rather not build platforms if I don't have too.

Thanks again everyone for all the FANTASTIC help and advice...I sincerely appreciate it very much.

Tejay

 

[FirstReflection]

Yeah, in regards to the Harmony remote:

I can totally appreciate where people who hate the Harmony remotes are coming from. The software is...a mess. It really is like beating your head against a wall sometimes.

But there are redeeming qualities, too. The actual hardware of the Harmony 900 is really nice. Feels good in the hand. Really good hard button layout, at least IMO. The RF signal works. And it looks nice and the LCD screen is easy to read and use.

Once you DO get through the software, I like the Harmony One, 700 and 900 because they are very easy for other folks to use. Of course, it's all on your shoulders to program the Activities in order to make things easy for other people! It is really nice though to just have "Watch Cable TV", "Watch Blu-ray", "Listen to Music", etc. as single, large buttons right on the LCD screen. And to have it so that when someone pushes one of those touchscreen buttons, all the correct components turn on, all the correct inputs and listening modes are selected, and the remote is set up to control the system of components, rather than just one device at a time!

Of course, other remotes can do very similar things with macros and such. But few have the ability to remap all of the hard buttons automatically based on your activity, rather than by device.

So, to me, it's a case where all of the "behind the scenes" stuff is pretty terrible. But once you slog your way through it, everything that other people actually see and touch is easy and good

Anywho, I certainly get why some people hate them. There are plenty of good reasons! But I still like what they can offer if you're willing to put in the time, get a little creative sometimes in order to find work arounds, and probably pull your hair out more than a few times.

I will say, absolutely do yourself a favor and create at least two accounts! Use one account to play around with the programming and try things out. Then keep the second account as your "real" account once you've figured out how you want to program things. Nothing worse than having an idea, giving it a try, and screwing up the whole damn remote when it doesn't work the way you were expecting! So keep one account "safe" and stable. Then play around to your heart's content in the other

 

[zieglj01]

But why would you shy away from ALL consumer subwoofers - even from specialty retailers like SVS, Rythmik and HSU - in a home theater that's only about 3500 cubic feet? This is...exactly what these subwoofers are made for! And they can more than handle the room size.

Again, I'm just not understanding where all these recommendations for insanely high output subwoofers and speakers are coming from. It's 3500 cubic feet, folks! That's not that big!

I am with you on this.

 

[slipperybidness]

Yeah, in regards to the Harmony remote:

I can totally appreciate where people who hate the Harmony remotes are coming from. The software is...a mess. It really is like beating your head against a wall sometimes.

But there are redeeming qualities, too. The actual hardware of the Harmony 900 is really nice. Feels good in the hand. Really good hard button layout, at least IMO. The RF signal works. And it looks nice and the LCD screen is easy to read and use.

Once you DO get through the software, I like the Harmony One, 700 and 900 because they are very easy for other folks to use. Of course, it's all on your shoulders to program the Activities in order to make things easy for other people! It is really nice though to just have "Watch Cable TV", "Watch Blu-ray", "Listen to Music", etc. as single, large buttons right on the LCD screen. And to have it so that when someone pushes one of those touchscreen buttons, all the correct components turn on, all the correct inputs and listening modes are selected, and the remote is set up to control the system of components, rather than just one device at a time!

Of course, other remotes can do very similar things with macros and such. But few have the ability to remap all of the hard buttons automatically based on your activity, rather than by device.

So, to me, it's a case where all of the "behind the scenes" stuff is pretty terrible. But once you slog your way through it, everything that other people actually see and touch is easy and good

Anywho, I certainly get why some people hate them. There are plenty of good reasons! But I still like what they can offer if you're willing to put in the time, get a little creative sometimes in order to find work arounds, and probably pull your hair out more than a few times.

I will say, absolutely do yourself a favor and create at least two accounts! Use one account to play around with the programming and try things out. Then keep the second account as your "real" account once you've figured out how you want to program things. Nothing worse than having an idea, giving it a try, and screwing up the whole damn remote when it doesn't work the way you were expecting! So keep one account "safe" and stable. Then play around to your heart's content in the other

Really good idea on the 2 accounts.

I personally like this remote. I got the 15 for $40 open box on ebay and I would have felt I got my money's worth for even $100.

AR : Universal Remote Controls : ARRX18G

It may not be the fanciest, but it works well and I didn't think programming it was difficult, YMMV. It's not rechargeable, but doesn't bother me b/c I use sanyo enelope rc batteries anyway. You can assign any button any function and even cross populate to when 1 device is selected you have hybrid controls for several components.

 

[jostenmeat]

This isn't going to sound right because I'm just picking out one thing that jostenmeat wrote

Just so we're clear, I'm onboard with pretty much everything he wrote.

But why would you shy away from ALL consumer subwoofers - even from specialty retailers like SVS, Rythmik and HSU - in a home theater that's only about 3500 cubic feet? This is...exactly what these subwoofers are made for! And they can more than handle the room size.

I mean yeah, if you're just all about infinite baffle systems or rotary fan subs, then that's cool. I can dig it But to dismiss ALL other subwoofers seems, well, a little eccentric I really don't see how a pair of SVS Plus or Ultra subs, or Rythmik F15HP or FV15, or HSU ULS-15 or VTF-15H are going to be any sort of disappointment.

Again, I'm just not understanding where all these recommendations for insanely high output subwoofers and speakers are coming from. It's 3500 cubic feet, folks! That's not that big!

I understand your fair question, and I guess I should better clarify where I'm coming from. I do not intend to only advise "high output" as the only criterion, but the OP did say, "The majority of what we like to watch is action / adventure (Avatar, Black Hawk Down, etc) . . .". Some of the pro oriented speakers will not suffer dynamic compression the way many consumer speakers will, with what was the distance you were thinking, 14-15 ft distance or something? That's not super far away like 25', but it's not exactly very close either. The intended spirit behind my ideas is that there are, options, options, options, and really that I want to expand the horizon of what the OP could even possibly consider.

For the record, the speakers behind my own screen are affordable, consumer type speakers found in living rooms. Though I've been told that the drivers are robust, for what the speakers are. I am sure that if I had some JTRs or Danleys, I would still without a doubt enjoy better dynamic range, and that's coming from someone that sits closer than what you've been advising to the OP, and I never listen anywhere close to reference level. I also do not necessarily put action/Avatar/BHD as my #1 priority either. I do believe it's nearly impossible to know what a newbie has in mind for SPL. Some people say something like, "Oh I like to crank it!", and between some of those people, I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was a 20db difference in what they're trying to accomplish!

The subs, okay firstly there is simply better value to be had with DIY type stuff, but regardless: The advantages chosen don't necessarily have to be output, say with those THTs I mentioned. They could instead be extension like the Danleys. Or whatever is wanted. But even if all of these things were equal, and presuming that looks are completely a non-factor, I already said it in my first post in this thread:

A nice thing about DIY sub vs commercial sub is that there is no more annoying auto on/off feature. I never thought about this before, but now that I know what it's like, auto on/off, well I despise it. I can always hear it turn on and off. So distracting.

I should have said consumer, not commercial, perhaps to be clearer. What are the options for passive subs coming from companies such as SVS/Rhythmik/Hsu? Have you or zieglj01 enjoyed a sub that did not use an audible auto on/off feature? It makes a bigger difference to my experience that I thought, for sure. It is always audible with any sub that I've used. If it's already loud, of course you wouldn't hear it, it's already fired up. Not only do I hear the click and/or thump upon waking up before an explosion, I hear it turning off after say a long sequence of dialogue.

Of course not all things are equal. One nicer thing about consumer subs is that the overall EQ will be closer to being dialed in I suppose.

 

[FirstReflection]

Okey doke. Well I'm glad we're here to help you then!

Thanks for clearing up the question about your room's dimensions. Makes a big difference!

Is the room's width actually 15 feet, 7 inches then? Not 18 feet?

That's a bit of a concern, actually. Not for the speakers and projector, but for your seating plan. Typical recliners are 22 or 23 inches wide for the seat alone. So four seats - no arms yet - are already 88-92 inches across. Then you add in 8 inches for the two flat arms on the ends, and 10-12 inches for the wedge arms to make it a curved row of four seats with a love seat in the middle. So you're in the range of 124-132 inches across. That's 11 feet across. And could be more if the arms are wider. My favourite home theatre recliners, for example, are the Palliser Indianapolis. For the exact layout you showed - four seats, curved, love seat in the middle - the width at the back of that row is 133 inches.

If the room is 15' 7" wide, that's only going to leave you 2' 3" on either side of the seats for a walkway. 2' 6" is pretty much a minimum. 3' is nicer for a walkway. Plus you'll have the acoustic treatments sticking out another couple inches from the wall. It could be uncomfortably snug.

Making the row straight instead of curved could help a little. And you can always go for narrower seats and/or narrower arms. Or you could forego some of the arms and have more of a couch.

But my point is, you'll need to pay close attention to which seats you choose to buy! So long as you're aware going in though, you should be fine

You don't need to have your seats on a riser to get good bass. More bad info someone else gave you. Sorry about that. It must be confusing!

Decoupling the subwoofer from the floor does help though! Much easier to spend $50 to decouple your subwoofer with a SubDude than to build a whole platform for all of your seats, no?

At this point, I'd recommend sticking with the one row of seats with 6 feet behind them. What you could do is still have an elevated floor behind the seats. That way, if you ever have more than 4 viewers, you can easily bring in some chairs and have them behind your row of recliners. They would be temporary only, but they'd get the job done. And that would allow you to have the one row or permanent seats directly on the floor and in the ideal acoustic location, rather than trying to squeeze two rows of permanent seats, and having to sacrifice other aspects just for seats that you said you probably won't need or use very often!

In regards to the screen, aspect ratios and viewing distance.

HDTV is all in 16:9 aspect. But most movies are wider. 2.35:1 is the norm. So when you watch most Blu-ray movies on an HDTV, you have black bars on the top and bottom.

SOME movies are in 16:9 (1.77:1) or 1.85:1 aspect. And really old movies and, of course, standard def TV are in 4:3 (1.33:1).

So the simple fact is that no individual screen is going to perfectly fit everything. You are going to have black bars, either on the top and bottom, or on each side, for SOME content.

I know a lot of people still hate "black bars". But you shouldn't The director chose a certain aspect ratio. He or she wanted to tell a story and give it a certain feel. So they chose an aspect ratio, maybe more square, maybe wider than normal. But the point is that, if you want to see the image as intended by the director, you're probably going to have some amount of "black bars" somewhere on the screen. You are not "missing" part if the picture! This is simply the only way to see ALL of the picture as intended! If you zoomed in the image to fill the full physical borders of your screen, THEN you would be cutting off part of the image! Lots of people still do this, and it drives me nuts

The good news is, with a projector like the JVC, the black is SO black that you truly do not notice the "bars". They just become a part of the screen's frame to your eyes

Field of view is a different matter though. SMPTE - the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers - recommends a 30 degree field of view for HDTV content. From 12 feet away, that is a 88.5 inch diagonal 16:9 HDTV. At a 32 degree field of view, if you had "perfect" 20/20 vision, you would be able to make out each individual line of resolution.

For movies, THX recommends a larger 36 degree field of view. 20th Century Fox recommended as much as a 40 degree field of view, which I've used in my recommendations here.

Beyond that size, you would have to physically turn your head in order to see the sides of the screen. Even at a 40 degree field of view, you will likely have to turn your head, and not just your eyes. So it's not just about being nearsighted. You start to run in to real watchability issues when you go larger. It isn't comfortable or enjoyable to have to physically keep moving your whole head to watch a movie!

So in your room size, a 12 foot viewing distance is about perfect, and a 120" screen is as big as you should go. At 12 feet, SMPTE would recommend 88.5", THX would say 107", and Fox would say 120"

As for what you saw in stores, there could be a ton of reasons. If there is ANY light in the room besides the projector itself, that will wash out the image. Obviously, the brighter the ambient light, the duller and dimmer the projected image looks.

I'm strongly guessing though that you've maybe never seen a properly calibrated image. There is actually a "right and wrong" when it comes to video. There are very precise and well defined, measurable points for each color, black and white, and gamma (the rate of rise from black to grey to white).

Unfortunately, most people have never seen a properly calibrated image! And when they do, they think it looks dull, dim and muted. And that's because TVs shown in stores have long used "torch mode" to draw your eye. They are WAY too bright, the colours are way overblown and over saturated. Contrast and gamma are over done. But all of these things draw your eye. And when there's a whole wall of TVs in a big box store, the manufacturers want to get your attention how ever they can!

But a properly calibrated image looks realistic and has all the detail that the director intended. Real life doesn't have cartoon colors screaming at you. Neither should you movie screen

This could be tough. There's a lot to cover, for sure! But none of this has really changed my recommendations. They all still apply. Whether you'd actually be really happy with all of them though might be questionable now, though

Best thing for now though: read through everything here. Do some research on your own based on what's been said here. Take many deep breaths. And DO NOT RUSH. You've got plenty to learn and consider, and we've dropped a TON of information on you! But it's all in the hopes of getting you the absolute best system for your hard earned money. And it's worth doing right! So take your time. And ask lots of questions

 

[FirstReflection]

@jostenmeat

Yeah, I just never turn my subwoofers off

The auto on/off never works properly and seamlessly. I'm with you on that. But the modern digital amps built into the likes of SVS and Rythmik subs suck down very little power in (EDIT - meant to say idle here, not standby ) idle. I just don't consider leaving them on all the time to be a problem. Then again, I live in BC, Canada and our electricity is pretty cheap here compared to a lot of places in the States

I can appreciate where you're coming from in terms of DIY solutions and simply opening up people's minds to more options. I've never been big into DIY. I'm willing to pay more for someone else to put it together and ship it to me But you're absolutely right that doing DIY and flat pack shipping can put you into a whole other price class for the same dollar amount.

I'm not sure I'm quite with you on dynamics though. 12 feet is not far. And I happen to enjoy full Reference Volume. I ask a lot of my speakers and subs. But movies only require 20dB swings in the speakers, 30dB in the subs. You'll typically run into the limits of your amplification before you'll run into the limits of the drivers themselves.

Anywho, like you say, we're not really in any disagreement. You're simply pointing out a different avenue, and a way to stretch one's money even further! I totally appreciate that. But I also place value on the effort it takes to do DIY, and on the headaches a person can run into, especially if they're not experienced with putting together speakers and subs! For some of us - a lot of us, I actually think - we'd rather just buy a finished product And I don't think the dual SVS Plus subs I recommended will be any sort of disappointment in any metric in a 3500 cubic foot room You're right, for the same money or less you can go even better in certain areas with DIY solutions. No disagreement. But forgetting the difference in price for a moment, the sheer performance of the dual PC12-Plus subs is not beneath many DIY solutions. For a finished product, the performance is stellar.

 

[Tejay]

Thanks again for all the expert help.

By the way, is the JVC projector available yet as I'm not finding it online. Also, what is the lumens rating on this unit and how important is that for a large screen?

Thanks again.

Tejay

 

[ratm]

Just wanted to say atta-boy to Firstreflection. Probably the best, most thorough, and easily understood advice I have ever read on here.

One other thing, I havent read many recommendations for a SubM within this thread. If I am lucky enough to have a 20k budget for a HT, Mr. Seaton is one of the first people I will call.

 

[shadyJ]

Then get four Crown XLS 1500 @ $348 each (3 will power your 5 or 6 speakers, 1 will power your dual subs). The XLS 1500 is 300wpc 8ohm/ 525wpc 4ohm/ 775wpc 2ohm.

XLS Drivecore

Amazon.com: Buying Choices: Crown XLS1500 Power Amplifier with integrated PureBand Crossover System and PeakX Limiters

This is a good idea to save some money, you could give all your speakers lots of power for $1k, and you can also draw on another circuit if you want to spread the power draw around a bit more. Aren't these the XLS amps that have that fan in them? I think I used to have a XLS200 and it had a fan that, while it wasn't loud, it did contribute a noise. Anyway, if these are going to be in an equipment closet, that won't be an issue, and even if they aren't, they could probably be modded easily into silence anyway, and it's definitely worth doing to save $1k over the Emotiva amp.

I would also stress, like was mentioned before, if you get speakers that are highly sensitive, like JTRs, you definitely won't need separate amplifiers, unless the AVR has a problem is low impedance loads.

 

[jostenmeat]

@jostenmeat

Yeah, I just never turn my subwoofers off

The auto on/off never works properly and seamlessly. I'm with you on that. But the modern digital amps built into the likes of SVS and Rythmik subs suck down very little power in (EDIT - meant to say idle here, not standby ) idle. I just don't consider leaving them on all the time to be a problem. Then again, I live in BC, Canada and our electricity is pretty cheap here compared to a lot of places in the States

Ah, I guess that's one way to do it.

I can appreciate where you're coming from in terms of DIY solutions and simply opening up people's minds to more options. I've never been big into DIY. I'm willing to pay more for someone else to put it together and ship it to me But you're absolutely right that doing DIY and flat pack shipping can put you into a whole other price class for the same dollar amount.

I absolutely hear you 100%. You see, the last time I mentioned this kind of thing to a different poster with a similar amount of knowledge, he was happily intrigued about the idea of building his own. He happened to be adept with woodworking already. I did not know that he was, but if it wasn't mentioned, it might not ever have been considered. On the other side of the coin, from the very moment this OP here makes it clear that he's counting out any kind of DIY at all, I'll immediately respect those wishes. Even if I've been trying to be clear from the beginning that one can simply hire this work out to a local or longtime cabinet maker, maybe a family friend, who knows. Shoot, not even that kind of skill is necessary. Say you get someone who will charge, I dunno $300 a day (is that an overestimate?). Say it actually takes a whole entire day to make one sub and/or speaker, or at least on avg if doing multiple at a time (is that an overestimate for a skilled woodworker doing a typical build?). 7.2 would only be $2,700 in labor. Most of that difference could easily be made up for with dual subs by themselves, let alone all the speakers. And I'm talking cutting the wood and all, the drilling, etc, we're not even talking about pre CNCd flat packs. A motivated worker could probably do all 9 speakers and subs in just one single day if they were all flat packs. Glue and screw, yeah? But, yes I guess we are sort of saying the same thing, differently, lol. If there is a false wall, most of these pieces may not require any finish. In any case, I'm betting there will already be somebody who can work with wood, on-site just for the building of the room itself?

I'm not sure I'm quite with you on dynamics though. 12 feet is not far. And I happen to enjoy full Reference Volume. I ask a lot of my speakers and subs. But movies only require 20dB swings in the speakers, 30dB in the subs. You'll typically run into the limits of your amplification before you'll run into the limits of the drivers themselves.

Maybe you're absolutely right, but I'm not yet convinced. This is not a big deal to me, as I'm pretty sure I don't have the same desires/expectations as the OP. But, I'd like to see you convince other Seymour + commerical speaker users, such as rmk, or even basspig.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/607953-post29.html

Anywho, like you say, we're not really in any disagreement. You're simply pointing out a different avenue, and a way to stretch one's money even further! I totally appreciate that. But I also place value on the effort it takes to do DIY, and on the headaches a person can run into, especially if they're not experienced with putting together speakers and subs! For some of us - a lot of us, I actually think - we'd rather just buy a finished product And I don't think the dual SVS Plus subs I recommended will be any sort of disappointment in any metric in a 3500 cubic foot room You're right, for the same money or less you can go even better in certain areas with DIY solutions. No disagreement. But forgetting the difference in price for a moment, the sheer performance of the dual PC12-Plus subs is not beneath many DIY solutions. For a finished product, the performance is stellar.

Fair enough, FR. Point taken clearly. I indeed was somewhat dismissive of consumer subs for whatever personal reasons, and perhaps a bit too blithely. (Even if I was stating it from a personal point of view.)

Thanks again for all the expert help.

By the way, is the JVC projector available yet as I'm not finding it online.

Which one? Google JVC projector, and I see a bunch.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jvc+projector&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=jvc+projector&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=fs7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ei=0J2EULWeLavNigLw5YHICg&ved=0CA4Q_AUoBQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=226cca4cc56170df&bpcl=35466521&biw=1920&bih=951

Also, what is the lumens rating on this unit and how important is that for a large screen?

Thanks again.

Tejay

Quite. But define large. If you're at 12ft, my guess is you're going to want at least 120" (40 deg), and go up from there. I prefer 126" 16:9 from that distance. IMO, the JVC will work at this size in a bat cave. The more reflective, the more bright the walls, the less effective it will be, and you will be getting less of your money's worth.

I would look up lumens as measured by 3rd parties. Lumens ratings by mftr are almost worthless. Also, some OTB lumens are much closer to calibrated lumens than others. A bad case scenario would be losing close to half your brightness after calibrating.

When looking at such measurements, bear in mind that "best setting" usually refers to high lamp mode, which also means louder PJ. You will also burn through your bulb more quickly. I pretty much never use hi lamp mode, because it is too loud for me, with mine, with its location.

By having a darker room, your minimum level of black will start to be limited by the PJ's capability. The brighter the room, the limitation will be the room itself. IMO, black levels really are what make "contrast" in a system, and the way I see it, they are the "heart and soul" of the video side of an HT.

If you would like a brighter room, and/or a considerably larger screen than low/mid 120"s, yeah I'd be leaning toward the DPI, which I really don't know too much about. 3 chip DLP, that's pretty cool they've come down that far in price, I didn't realize. They used to cost as much as a new car not that long ago, well at least the SIM2s did, maybe they still do. It will give up a tiny bit of sharpness to the inferior single chip, due to the convergence factor, but I believe it's going to be negligible, just saying it for education's sake.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The picture quality was lousy on all of them. They were dull, not bright, lacked colors that popped and were just un impressive to say the least.

I know what you mean. All the PJ I've seen at dealers were never bright enough for me. The PQ looked dull, dim, and boring. I prefer the black-is-black, white-is-white, vibrant PQ.

That is why I would never sacrifice Brightness.

My BenQ 6000W (new model is 7000W) is twice as bright as the $10,000 JVC PJ in best-picture calibrated mode.

I use the same calibration as the Projector Reviews website, except I use Economy Lamp mode (lowest light setting), instead of standard. And it is still a light canon compared to the other PJ in high brightness lamp mode. My screen size is 120" widescreen 16:9. I should have gotten 130".

 

[jostenmeat]

I know what you mean. All the PJ I've seen at dealers were never bright enough for me. The PQ looked dull, dim, and boring. I prefer the black-is-black, white-is-white, vibrant PQ.

That is why I would never sacrifice Brightness.

My BenQ 6000W (new model is 7000W) is twice as bright as the $10,000 JVC PJ in best-picture calibrated mode.

I use the same calibration as the Projector Reviews website, except I use Economy Lamp mode (lowest light setting), instead of standard. And it is still a light canon compared to the other PJ in high brightness lamp mode. My screen size is 120" widescreen 16:9. I should have gotten 130".

Your blacks are also probably twice as bright. Crap, I bet they are more than twice as bright. (After all, as you have less contrast, this would forcibly be the case, right?)

Which is totally fine, as your room is probably a light control nightmare with white walls everywhere. You NEED the brightness, and performance with blacks would be wasted on you.

 

[jostenmeat]

Tejay, I forgot to make a few other points.

Fact #1: Ambient light in your room (such as reflections from white walls) will kill your contrast at an exponential rate.

Fact #2: Once this contrast is lost, you simply cannot get it back, through any means of alchemy, it is gone forever.

To get a better, more convincing idea of the exact size of screen you want, try to ballpark the size first, to help choose PJ. Then buy PJ. Then start firing it at a blank wall for at least a few days, running all sorts of material through it.

You can use these handy calculators too:
TV Calculator
Viewing Distance Calculator

 

[FirstReflection]

Tejay,

The exact JVC models I recommended:

DLA-X55R or DLA-RS48

Are not for sale yet. They ship in November

For a pretty good idea of what they'll look like, if a local dealer has:

DLA-X70 or DLA-RS55U on display, the new, less expensive models should be pretty darn close.

The new X55R/RS48 falls in between the high end X75R/RS56, and the low end X35B/RS46. Last year, there was no equivalent models to the X55R/RS48. That's what makes the X55R/RS48 so exciting! It's the least expensive way to get the pseudo-4K resolution, but you don't have to pay $8000 for the slightly higher contrast if the higher end models It's a great "middle ground".

The lumen rating you get from manufacturers is, indeed, useless. A projector rated at 2700 lumens might actually be dimmer than one rated at 1200 lumens in real world use.

I'd highly recommend that you head over to projectorreviews.com and projectorcentral.com . Read some of their reviews. You'll learn a heck of a lot! You can certainly read the JVC reviews of last year's models. Again, all reports are that the new X55R/RS48 are brighter and sharper. So some of the quibbles from last year's models seem to have been improved, at least to the early reports out of CEDIA and other trade shows.

The other info the other folks here have shared regarding projectors and screens is great! Especially the idea of getting the projector first and just shooting the image onto a wall first. You'll really be able to figure out exactly what size screen you truly want!

For me, I would find a 126" 16:9 from 12 feet away too big. But that's MY taste. jostenmeat likes it that size. You might too. Or you might prefer even bigger. I can't possibly know So finding out first hand what you want before ordering the screen is EXCELLENT advice.

For the brightness and light output, all the info you've been given is right. The darker and less light reflective your room is, the brighter and higher in contrast your projector will seem. The JVCs are generally considered bright enough to handle the 120" size I recommended in 2D mode. But in 3D, they were too dim. At least in the past. The new models in November are supposed to be better. But we'll see

There are definitely alternatives! But the JVCs have the best black levels, and the pseudo-4K at this $5000 price point is exciting, and would be very useful in your case! That's why I chose to recommend it. But if you want brighter, or a bigger screen, you might prefer something else

 

[Steve81]

Maybe you're absolutely right, but I'm not yet convinced. This is not a big deal to me, as I'm pretty sure I don't have the same desires/expectations as the OP. But, I'd like to see you convince other Seymour + commerical speaker users, such as rmk, or even basspig.

I get a kick out of guys who have stuff like Klipsch Jubilees in their living rooms. I know there's one guy floating around the Klipsch forums that uses MCM Grands in his house. While that may be overkill, I think it's fair enough to say that a little weenie bookshelf with a single 5.25" midwoofer isn't going to be pushing reference levels in a room any bigger than a broom closet. If it were me, something as capable as the Klipsch THX Ultra 2 line would be my minimum. After all, the last thing you want after spending $20,000 on your theater is to hear your system strain when you demo it to your friends at full reference level

 

[BMXTRIX]

JVC projectors are bright enough for about a 120" to 135" screen with acceptable results, but the room does need to be good if you intend to get the most out of it.

Far to often people are focussed on the equipment. There has been some discussion of acoustics, but at a much more basic level, you need to focus on the room itself in one primarly aspect...

LIGHTING!

Just as room acoustics will affect your audio, lighting will affect the image you get on screen.

If you don't properly treat the room, you will completely lose out on all the quality that a decent projector can deliver.

The goal is to get as close to black as possible - this means the walls, the ceiling, the floors, and the furniture should be dark colors and should be flat. Dark reds, dark blues, dark greys, dark... whatever.

Lighting: The actual lights in the room are the second biggest screw-up that occurs most frequently.

People think that because it is a theater, you shouldn't have much lighting in it. In fact, the opposite is true. You should have more lights, and you should plan on no less than four different zones of lighting, perhaps more. Wall sconces are useful for main room entry and exit, but will never be on during a movie - ever. Ceiling lights over each room of seating should be recessed or directional in a manner that they do not allow any light whatsoever to fall on the screen except through secondary reflections. If you have four seats in one row, then put four recessed lights above them. If you have two rows of seating, then that is two zones of lighting. One for the front row, one for the second row.

Finally, the front of the room needs lighting as well, and this becomes it's own zone.

Putting 12 to 20 lights (60 watt) is not at all unreasonable. The dark walls and furniture will suck up lighting, and unlike your family room which is a light color and reflects lighting everywhere, you will find your theater to be a light siphon. No indirect reflections will mean that every corner will need to be properly lit directly by a fairly bright light to be visible.

As well, zoning directional lighting away from the screen means that you can put lights on when watching a movie, or more often, sports, and still have a rock solid image on screen.

This is from my family room on a 106" diagonal screen using a sub 500 lumen projector as an example of how zoning lighting can give a balance of excellent results:

AV Integrated - Custom Audio Visual Integration In Washington DC Metropolitan Area

Finally, get a good controllable dimmer light a Lutron Grafik Eye so you can set scenes.

I will say that I really like Digital Projection, but I have a really hard time recommending them due to their pricing. Projection technology is still changing and is likely to be one of the earlier products to start going towards 4K products natively. In 4-7 years it will be time to replace the projector completely with something new. It is a heat bath inside a projector and the electronics fail rather quickly unfortunately. A cheaper projector, even like the W7000, may be a good alternative as a balance between money and quality than a more expensive projector which is marginally brighter. Keep in mind that the DP projectors certainly don't have the same focus on contrast ratios that some other brands do and are still DLP based which is going to use the same chips that most other DLP manufacturers are using.

They do have a 3,000+ lumen 1080p projector which I think is awesome, but that one is over $10,000.

All BD discs are encoded as 16:9 1080p movies. But, the movie itself may be 2.35:1 on that disc with black bars above/below the image to fill it to 16:9 aspect ratio. If you have a Blu-ray player currently, or know someone that does, rent Tron Legacy and you will see it jump between 1.78:1 (16:9) and 2.35:1 aspect ratios.

Don't get a pricey Blu-ray player.

Get a VERY good remote.

Wish I lived in the Atlanta area, would have been happy to come by on this one.

I've done the Denon 3313 with the Emotiva XPA-5 and some Kef speakers recently in a similarly sized room and it looks and sounds great.

If you do not intend to go with an acoustically transparent screen - you need space behind the screen for sepakers! then you have to leave enough room to the sides of the screen and below the screen for speakers. Center channels should be a pretty decent size.

Also keep in mind that your surround speakers, if wall mounted, will protrude into aisles and may become a headache - litterally, as heads bonk into them if your aisles are narrow and you don't give room for them properly. Columns that extend into the room several inches will encourage people away from the walls and will allow the surrounds to fit on the wall with less potential for people to bonk heads against them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

JVC projectors are bright enough for about a 120" to 135" screen with acceptable results, but the room does need to be good if you intend to get the most out of it.

Lighting is certainly a huge factor.

And the (non-LED) lamp brightness goes down significantly after a while.

I see all this interest in 3D and 4K, but I'm more interested in bright LED projectors under $5K.

 

[FirstReflection]

Great post, BMX!

Acu, just speaking for myself, but when I bring up 3D, what I'm really talking about is high brightness Nothing cuts your viewable light output faster than a pair of 3D glasses!

As for the interest in 4K, that's only because of the desire to sit so close to a very large screen. At the 40 degree or greater field of view mark, it starts to get pretty darn easy to spot individual pixels or a major screen door effect with 1080p.

One issue that comes with brightness is the potential for eye fatigue. If you watch a ton of TV and movies like I do, it can cause a headache or start to become pretty fatiguing to look at a really bright image for hours and hours. I actually suspect a little bit of that was part of the industry standards for display calibration When you're looking at a screen for 16 hours straight, you start to appreciate a dimmer setting

 

[jostenmeat]

Now let's take some time to talk acoustic room treatments.

Everything regarding room treatments is about addressing reflected sound waves. In a theater, the sound coming from the front of the room is supposed to be very clear and precise. You should be able to pin point where sounds are coming from. And have great imaging and detail. The sound should “wash over” you and then “disappear” behind you.

So at the front of the room, and directly behind you, reflections are pretty much the enemy So what makes the most sense is to absorb reflections at the front of the room. To do that, we put absorption panels on the front wall (behind the front speakers), on the side walls where the reflections will be strongest, and on the ceiling in between the speakers and the listeners. The floor should also be carpeted or have a nice, thick rug in between the speakers and listeners.

Directly behind the listeners, we also want to absorb the sound so that sound waves do not bounce straight off of the back wall and come back your ears from behind you. This is actually the main reason why so many people have intelligibility problems with dialogue in a lot of systems. Many people have their seat pushed right up against the back wall. If you go with two rows of seating, you'll want to avoid this problem for the rearmost row.

The surround speakers are a different story though. Their sound is meant to envelop and “blanket” the audience. So for the rear portion of the room, it is better to scatter the sound waves with diffusers, rather than absorbing them. You WANT the sound bouncing around back there. So diffusion is your friend

And I've already talked about bass traps previously. Treating the vertical corners of your room with bass traps is where you'll get the most sonic benefit.

So how do we accomplish all this and make it look good? Thankfully, it's not too hard

We start with the Acoustimac Home Theater Room Package XL . This is a tremendous deal on all the absorption and bass traps you will need!

What you can do is upgrade to suede material, which looks great. And you can specify a mix of colors if you like. Acoustimac offers quite a few suede colors.

I would put 4 of the regular 48” x 24” x 2” thick panels on the front wall, behind your front 3 speakers and screen. I would put 3 panels on each side wall in between the speakers and seats. The final 2 panels can either go on the ceiling, or on the french doors – which is one of the reasons for the pneumatic door stops

The eight 24” x 24” panels can be used on the ceiling, side or back walls to give you some options in terms of patterns and color arrangements. A mixture of black 48” panels with dark brown or tan 24” square panels can look really nice. Or you can use other colors that better match the paint and finish of your room.

I would also upgrade to the corner bass trap models, which are easier to hang and fit better into the corners. Two bass traps in each vertical corner will give you nearly floor to ceiling coverage, which is great!

Once you include shipping, with the suede and corner bass trap upgrades, you're looking at a little over $1900.

To complete your room treatments, head on over to GiK Acoustics for some of their excellent QRD Diffusor panels . Four of those would be nice for the rear portion of the room. You could put two on each side wall behind the listening position, or one on each side wall, and then one on each side of the back wall, right next to the corner bass traps.

You're looking at $680 including shipping for those.

So all told, this package of room treatments is going to run you roughly $2600. They'll look great with the suede material. But more importantly, they'll make your room sound better than any commercial movie theater or other person's house you've ever been in! These treatments are what make all the effort of a dedicated room and a $20,000 budget worth while!

FirstReflection, I didn't realize you machine gunned so many long posts within about a minute's span- I completely missed at least a couple of them. I'm only addressing one for today.

Firstly, I am no acoustics expert. This said, I have gleaned the following impressions that sometimes aren't totally congruous with your postings.

For the ceiling, 9ft was the height? Not the tallest, but not the shortest, and if the OP chooses vertical MTMs, they will have reduced "floor bounce" anyway. Personally, I don't put this at a very high priority, but whatever works, ya know.

The front of room, I agree that SBIR should be dealt with, the closer the speaker is to the front wall, particularly if rear ported as well. Of course with in wall speakers, not necessary. In my very limited, and personal experiences, front wall treatments make the most difference where there are areas of great resonance; not so much the relative position from said speakers. Like I said though, no acoustician here, but I have lots of traps, and I know which ones make the biggest difference to me. This may surprise most people, but of the nine panels or so at the front wall, the most effective are the very thinnest ones, on the top most portion of the front wall. Not the heavy duty bass traps, or the medium sized bass traps directly behind each speaker. Point is: it depends! Outside of hiring a pro, I think an easy (and doable) method is to simply get involved, experiment.

I don't know that vertical traps are any more effective than horizontal traps. We use vertical ones more often simply for the ergonomics of the room, AFAIK.

The trapping at the rear wall has not as much to do with absorbing HF and early arrivals, as it does with absorbing LF when listeners are within close proximity, which in turn masks the HF. I picked that one up from b pape.

Diffusion may work, however, they require certain thresholds of distance to work properly, and a lot of diffusers are ridiculously expensive. They look really cool though! Ok some of those GIK are quite affordable. I wonder what ther recommended min distance is. I doubt they would be highly recommended if the heads were only a couple of feet away. Absorption would likely be the better alternative.

Please note that I already know that you know many things that I don't.

The superchunk traps, the huge thick ones that go all the way floor to ceiling, I've even some people simply cut up the rigid fiberglass up with a very cheap electric bread cutter, and stack them. Much more effective (nothing beats mass, and they would be waaaay thicker and more massive), besides being cheaper. Just one of those DIY options once again, of course.

What's cool about the dual use riser, whether those AH/Auralex U-boats, or Helmoltz resonator, is that you get a lot of bass trapping without the visibility or any reduction of room's volume. It's a cool thing to do, admittedly difficult though, and of course this assumes there is a riser to begin with.

Regarding Blue Jeans cables, and I've discussed this with the fans here before: Look, I'm all for American made. I've also spent hundreds of dollars with them. But I wouldn't just go out and say this is the end all be all. Not only do I slightly prefer a number of Monoprice cable choices (yes, surely Chinese made), that is not the issue that would stop me from saying "BJC: The End of the Story". It's that sometimes the cabling is really not always* the greatest value. For instance, if he runs very short 2' long cables for 8 channels of preouts to outboard amplification, the very cheapest set for at BJC is over $115. Then there are two more expensive price tiers after that. Now, if it's still* the end all be all to you, always BJC all the time, more power to you, but not IMO.

I appreciate your extreme comprehensiveness. Nevertheless, even though the version I heard was a number of generations ago, I was simply unimpressed with your Focal suggestions, at least for the lineups in general. Quite "veiled" to me. For the speakers I heard, I expect to be more impressed by $100 flat pack kits. Perhaps I'd be mistaken, but that's my outlook on that one.

Keep up the good work. Don't get me wrong, the OP is extremely lucky to have you on his side, there is no doubt about it.

Oh yeah, lastly for now, and I'm not even sure which # post this is relevant to, but if you can always easily make out individual pixels at 40 deg, you have some seriously freaking acute vision. Unless you're only talking about LCD technology, which by far and away has the lowest fill ratio. DLPs are *way* better at +90%, but LCOS is even better than DLP, or I should say, it's the best. If you told me that JVC fill ratio was +99% I would probably believe you, as I can just about walk all the way up to the screen and not make out any gaps between the pixels. Yes, I can see the grid finally at a fraction of the viewing distance, but heck no at 40 deg! Maybe next time I'll put my eyeballs a few inches away, but then you see my head is blocking the light from the PJ is the problem.

SDE is an LCD problem. It is just about 100% guaranteed that LCD tech hasn't been, or will be, discussed as a serious option for the OP in this thread.

Even when you take AT weaves, the whole idea of angling the weave is for LCD tech only. It is not really necessary for any other techs. I still "tilted" mine, just to be sure, future-proofing, whatever, against any moire effect. But I gotta ask: Are you saying these things about LCD only, are all techs??

Cheers.