Little help on a 20,000 Home Theater System please

J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thats tested with the 500 watt amp or 600? I know the Rythmiks are impressive amps, but I always thought the in room difference wouldnt warrant the $500+ price difference.. I know the numbers are important, but when you get 2-15" 350 watt subs home chances are you arent going to care about the extra 5db? I have 1 vtf12 and cant turn it 1/2 way up, and my room is a good size...

There are definitely choices out there, and this is one of the great things about this forum, you are going to get all sides of the coin {even the edge}.. Thanks Steve..
The subs you're discussing are not only considerably more expensive than what I recommended, and they are probably vastly inferior. There is no need here for a living room friendly size (a definite constraint on performance), or a living room friendly exterior finish (a definite constraint on performance-value).

Someone mentioned running multiple electrical circuits, my belief is that not more than one to run the whole show will be be necessary with the subs I mentioned. In all likelihood, even the most modest of amps will provide ridonkulous bass.

Thanks again guys for all the great help, ideas and opinions. It amazes me that I have approached 3 different home theater companies in my hometown of Atlanta GA. One never responded to my emails and calls and the other 2 proposed simple solutions with what I considered sub-par electronics and speakers. Neither of the two that I spoke with offered any design elements, just a simple quote of "here's what you get for you budget" in equipment and installation. Not to mention...."I'm sorry but I don't carry that brand".
I swore I thought Dennis Erskine was right in your backyard, but it looks like the phone # is out of CO. Anyway, an option play could be to contact him to make some blueprints for you including even running HVAC, where you and/or your contractor do all the work/building. About half a decade ago, it was about $1,000, IIRC, but I have a sinking feeling that probably has gone up in price, not sure and am guessing.
http://www.erskine-group.com/index.php

I would start reading, a lot, in the dedicated theater construction subforum of AVS. Pay particular attention to whenever Ted White or Dennis Erskine say something. Among others.
Dedicated Theater Design & Construction

Anyway, your space is 22' long, or 20'-6 1/2"? In a perfectly rectangular room, for the axial modes, you want to sit about 38% of length, doesn't matter front or back. The # may drop slightly with the inclusion of non-axial modes. What you definitely don't want is to sit perfectly smack dab in the middle of the room, nor have the back row's heads too close to the rear boundary. The closer you are, the more you will probably want loads of broadband absorption there.

Someone mentioned some large figure for acoustic treatments. Well, for starters you could build some superchunk-floor-to-ceiling corner traps, if you pick two corners only, do the front wall, and no you won't see them anyway with a false wall.

Some people even make their back row risers as acoustical instruments, like in this AH article:
Building a Multifunction Home Theater Seat Riser — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Others have mentioned turning the riser into a Helmholtz resonator. I couldn't explain to you how that worked if my life depended on it.

If you are willing to paint any certain walls/ceiling black, there are those who believe that Rosco Supersaturated Velour Black #6003 is the flattest black hole stuff there is. I used Mouse Ears flat black (it's a Disney color) from HD, but it was more reflective than I was hoping, and if I did it over again, I'd try a different paint.

For the screen border I used the Fidelio velvet from Seymour, as I recall it has a 0.3% reflectivity or something, ok looks like I'm right. Not cheap, but the real estate needed for the screen border is not much, so I would splurge. Whatever velvet you choose to suck up any overscan should at least be telescope grade, IMO.
The official SeymourAV center stage screen thread!

edit: I definitely agree with going for XT32 (for the dual subs) over some other version of MultEQ, so up the receiver/processor budget from what I was thinking. If you go 4 subs for some reason, there are devices that can handle those, I think of the JBL BassQ. I don't have any knowledge on well it works though.
 
T

Tejay

Enthusiast
Thanks again everyone for the great help and information.

One other thing I failed to mention is that my wife and I are both near-sighted and we prefer to be closer to the screen than what the normal recommended distance is.
 
T

Tejay

Enthusiast
Hi Guys

Below are some more answers to questions posed earlier.

Is the screen going on the 22' wall or the 18' wall?
Currently it's on the short wall but I'm not sold that this is the best layout. I only plan on 4 chairs and 2 large bean bags for the kids. 99% of the time it will be just my wife and I

How high is the ceiling?
9'

Also...no 3D. From what I have seen it looks too gimmicky.


What is the distance from eyes to screen for the primary "throne" seat?
Little over 9'

How many rows of seating will you have?
Really 1 is enough even though the drawing shows 2

How many seats in each row?
4

Is this an enclosed room?
It can be. One of the home theater guys said its better to be open as it prevents standing waves...not sure if that's right though.

If the room is open to other rooms, what are the dimensions? How big is the opening? Where is the opening?
Opening in back as its laid out now but that can be closed off if need be.

Where are all the doors and windows? A diagram or photos would be extremely helpful.
No windows
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Whoo boy. OK!

Well first up, thank you for replying with answers to the questions I asked. And those diagrams are great! Very helpful :)

I'm not sure where you were getting all of your info prior to coming to this forum. But sadly, it seems as though you've been led down some wrong paths. While it's true that having a large opening to the rest of the house will reduce standing waves, having that opening creates far, FAR more problems than it solves. Most obviously, you can't contain the sound what-so-ever to the theater with a permanent opening! What if you want to watch a movie, but your wife wants to take a nap? It also makes light control a nightmare. Do you really want a situation where, in order to watch a movie, no one can have a light on in the bar? And in terms of the audio itself, having a permanent opening means that you have to consider the entire area as part of the volume of freely moving air that makes up your theater. That's an utter nightmare for your subwoofers because your basement is very large!

No, if at all possibly, PLEASE enclose that room. You could have some nice, large french doors - preferrably solid core for soundproofing purposes, of course. Once the room is enclosed, the way to deal with standing waves is two-fold:

1) with your budget, room size, and desires in terms of seating area, you should definitely be considering multiple subwoofers. At least a pair. Although you might be a very good candidate for using four subwoofers.

2) Bass traps. These are passive room treatments. They're simply panels made of insulation. You first treat all of the vertical corners, followed by the upper perimeter of your room if necessary. Bass traps - and all acoustic absorption, for that matter - work by absorbing soundwaves. Normally, sound waves will travel outwards from your speakers and subwoofers. When those soundwaves reach a normal, flat wall, ceiling or the hard floor, they reflect off of such hard, flat surfaces. So you've got these soundwaves normally bouncing and reflecting all around your room. Especially bass soundwaves, which are very long and powerful. And sometimes, waves will "run into" each other and either "double up" or "cancel" each other out. A standing wave occurs between two parallel, flat surfaces when the soundwave is exactly the right length so that it perfectly doubles back on itself. So it keeps bouncing back and forth between those two parallel walls, and keeps doubling up and cancelling out in exactly the same spots, over and over. If you happen to be sitting right in one of those spots, you get a HUGE, way too loud note at that particular wavelength, or you get dead silence, no matter how loud the subwoofer or speaker is playing that note!

But if you use bass traps and absorption, now the soundwaves reach the wall, hit the bass trap or absorption panel instead of the hard, flat wall, and they get turned into harmless heat, rather than bouncing and reflecting all around the room :) Now, you're hearing the sound that's coming directly from your speakers or subwoofers, rather than all of the reflected soundwaves. And those standing waves don't occur nearly as much, because every time the soundwave reaches a wall, it's being absorbed, rather than reflected back on itself.

So enclose the room!

Next, we've got to talk about that equipment closet. Few issues:

1) the way it's shown in the diagram, it blocks your walkways on that side of the room. Although, like you say, the seating might be different in the final layout.

2) Not a big deal at all, but it would take up one full corner, preventing you from putting bass traps or a subwoofer in that particular corner.

3) Having it in that location might make it difficult for you to access the back of your equipment, unless you use a fairly fancy and expensive rack that can pull out, and/or rotate.

Is there any way of moving your equipment into that area under your stairs? Or perhaps recessing the equipment rack, even partially, into that space under the stairs?

I'm guessing you might want to keep open access to a disc player or videogame systems or the like within the theater. Kind of a hassle if you have to go under the stairs every time you want to put in a different disc :p But if you could make use of that area under the stairs, or simply have the access door for that area be inside the theater instead, you could hide your equipment in there, have much easier access to the back of all your equipment, have way more room for wires and cables and such, and still keep easy access for switching discs and whatnot. Just an idea, anyway ;)

Then we've really gotta talk about where you're gonna put your seats, and exactly what the seating is going to be. Right now, the two rows are shown a little bit close together for my liking. I find 5.5 feet from the back of one row to the back of the other row to be about perfect. Right now, you're only showing about 4.5 feet, which could easily lead to someone in the back row kicking the head of the front row if they're fully reclined ;)

As already mentioned, acoustically speaking, having your primary seat at about 1/3rd of the room's length (from front to back) is more or less ideal. You don't want it dead center. That's the worst spot, other than pushed right up against a wall.

So I'm really thinking with what you've said, AND because you've said you don't really care about 3D (which works out great, frankly ;) ) you could have your eyes and ears at about 13-14 feet from the physical front wall of the theater room. That'll put the physical back wall about 7 feet behind your ears, which is a nice distance to have for ideal surround sound. This would pretty much make a 2nd row a no-go. But if you're really planning on just one row anyway, this would be ideal.

Keeping the false wall at the front with an acoustically transparent screen and the speakers behind that screen with about 2 feet to work with from the screen to the physical front wall is great! That'll give you an 11-12 foot viewing distance with this seating plan, which is a really nice distance in a home theater. 10 feet is a bit close in a theater this size. You'd sort of feel as though you're sitting on top of the screen!

I'm all for wanting to go BIG for the screen size. But you're going to want to consider how you'll handle 2.35:1 aspect ratio content vs. 16:9 aspect ratio content. It's easy enough to just use a very large 16:9 aspect ratio screen. But that will mean "black bars" above and below the image for 2.35:1 content. In a theater of this size and price range, it's usually nicer if your 2.35:1 aspect content has the "bigger" screen, the height always stays the same, and you simply close in the right and left sides of the screen for 16:9 aspect content.

This gets a bit tricky though - especially with an acoustically transparent screen. To start, motorized screen masking systems are not cheap! And the least expensive ones are not acoustically transparent, so now you'd have to make sure that your Front Left & Right speakers are within the borders of the 16:9 aspect screen. Otherwise, the masking, when closed, will block the sound. Acoustically transparent, motorized masking systems are prohibitively expensive. As in over half your budget all by themselves! So yeah, that's not gonna happen :p

Frankly, we need to talk more about this. I'm out of time right at this moment. But again, work big to small, anyway. We should sort out the exact layout of the room and the seating first. We'll worry about the screen after that.

Final question, the diagram shows the 1st row of seats on a elevated floor, and then the 2nd row on a riser above that. This is great for soundproofing if you are planning to use a floated floor in the entire room. But I was just curious where you got those plans.

I'm not sure where you're at in the construction phase. But if you're still able to make changes to the plans, there is a WHOLE lot to consider in terms of the construction - especially if you want to consider real soundproofing. And there's all the electrical and HVAC to consider as well. If having the room be dead silent to the rest of the house isn't really a concern, then normal construction is just fine. But those plans make me think that someone in your design and construction team was thinking about soundproofing. So it's worth my asking ;)
 
L

llewop

Audiophyte
be wary of emotiva cheap amps not so great sound every were on the internet the get rave reviews.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
be wary of emotiva cheap amps not so great sound every were on the internet the get rave reviews.
So in other words, don not listen to EVERYONE else, listen to one person {you}???? That is logical since you presented such a rock solid and well delivered case of real world data...


I own 5 Emotiva amps, and have toured their facility, I wouldn't beware of them, they are a great value for the money, and do what they say they do, have you ever even heard one? I have ati, B&K, ect and I use the emotivas, the others are slowly getting sold off.... Plus look on ebay, the resale value is almost what you can buy a new amp for... Not to mention Emotiva has some of the best customer support in the business, and if you dont like thier product can return it within 30days for a full refund even 1 way shipping . I would compare the 2000watt $2000 amplifier I suggested to any class a/b amplifier with its power, twice its price? Oops there are none... Even the sunfire 400x5 was like $4000 and I owned one, nothing to brag about for sure... The emo seems much better built and my Sunfire had issues they couldnt repair and needed to be contently reset...
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The mention of the BP7000SC and Trinity brings back some good memories of my past. :D

I used to own them. :D

Just like anything, some will like and some will not. :D

Audition as many speakers as you can and bring your favorite CDs.

You may be able to audition B&W, KEF, Revel, Focal, Dynaudio, ATC, TAD EX, JBL, as well as Def Tech and Klipsch at local dealers.

You may be able to audition Ascend, Salk, Philharmonic, and some other ID brands at other people's houses.

NHT and Aperion also offer in-home 30-day 100% money back trials/ audition. KEF direct may also do that.

I think the subwoofer is very important. Everyone has a different taste. Good to see it all the brainstorm.

I would get dual Funk 18.0 subs (TSAD18v1) Unpowered for $3800 shipped. These are 4 ohm subs. Nathan Funk will throw in free magnetic grilles valued at $300/pair.

http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.0_Options_and_Pricing.html

Spend the remaining $6K on your speakers.

For BD, I would just get the Panasonic 220 for about $100 from Amazon. I also own two $2,000 Denon BD players. They are in the closet now because I use the Panasonic. :D


For AVR/amp, I would call Electronics Expo and see if they can sell you a Denon AVR-3313 for $750 shipped.

Then get four Crown XLS 1500 @ $348 each (3 will power your 5 or 6 speakers, 1 will power your dual subs). The XLS 1500 is 300wpc 8ohm/ 525wpc 4ohm/ 775wpc 2ohm.

http://www.crownaudio.com/usa/amplifiers/xls-drivecore.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B003HZV2JS/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Also get a Smart Strip surge protector for $32 to automatically power down all your gears when you turn off the main gear (like AVR).

http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Strip-Protector-Autoswitching-Technology/dp/B0006PUDQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350830684&sr=8-1&keywords=smart+strip
 
Last edited:
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
The subs you're discussing are not only considerably more expensive than what I recommended, and they are probably vastly inferior. There is no need here for a living room friendly size (a definite constraint on performance), or a living room friendly exterior finish (a definite constraint on performance-value). likelihood, even the most modest of amps will provide ridonkulous bass.
Certainly if the OP is willing to toss out aesthetics and size constraints, bang for the buck goes up considerably. I mean, for just a hair over a thousand bucks, you can get a prebuilt package like this:

Data-Bass

Few people are just going to pop that thing in their living room, but if you can hide it/live with the ugly factor, you're getting huge output, and as near as I can see, reasonably flawless measured performance. If you're up for DIY, you can possibly drive that cost down even more.


Someone mentioned running multiple electrical circuits, my belief is that not more than one to run the whole show will be be necessary with the subs I mentioned. In all likelihood, even the most modest of amps will provide ridonkulous bass.
With some of the main channel amplifiers being mentioned, it'd still probably be a good idea to keep the electrical layout in mind, not to mention all the other equipment. Not saying you need five dedicated twenty amp circuits, but if something like an Emo XPR-5 is on the table along with multiple subwoofers, a projector, etc, you don't want a single 15 amp circuit feeding the room.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
be wary of emotiva cheap amps not so great sound every were on the internet the get rave reviews.
Be wary, that is fine. But, they do offer a no-hassle return policy and work well for many people, so I wouldn't just write them off without giving them a fair shake at it.

I have a USP-1 preamp and a XDA-1 dac. For my purposes and for the price to performance, they really were tough to beat, and no complaints here. I took a look at the internals of the USP-1. Build quality is good. Definitely better than any "commodity" receiver out there, but not as nice as something like a Parasound Halo or better.

One more item about Emotiva. It is pretty well-known that at a minimum they do a 4th of July and a Holiday sale at the end of every year. So give it another month or so and their prices will probably drop 10-15% across the board for a few weeks.

Also, used usually isn't a bad decision, assuming you know the red-flags to look out for.
 
Last edited:
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I'm a little confused as to why everyone is focusing on high output capabilities for the speakers and subs. 22' x 18' x 9' is barely over 3500 cubic feet, and the drawings are showing even smaller dimensions (we really need to know what the actual dimensions are, by the way ;) ). A 10-13 foot distance isn't all that far. So why the focus on high output? It's a "large" room by THX standards, but it's not huge by any means.

Anyways, I've been starting to put together a potential equipment list in my head, and once again, the money goes QUICK.

For the projection screen:

I'm gonna assume the drawing is actually correct and we're dealing with the physical front and back walls being about 20.5 feet apart, not 22 feet.

I think some nice, dramatic, solid core 36" each, french doors in the middle of the back wall would make a great entry. So you'd have a 6 foot wide entry at the back. I'd put pneumatic door closers on those and set them to prevent the doors from opening more than 110 degrees (more on this later ;) ). That way, someone could get up and leave the room during a movie and you won't have to worry about the doors closing behind them ;)

It'd be nice to be able to have the doors fully open and still retain a proper walkway behind the row of seats, so I'm going to suggest the distance from the back wall to the back of the seats be 6 feet. In a normal reclined viewing position with "wall hugger" seats, that'll put your eyes and ears about 0.5-1 foot ahead of the physical backs of the seats - depending on the exact seats you're using.

You're going to have that false wall at the front of the room. So bottom line is that, if the drawing's dimensions are correct, you're looking at a 12 foot viewing distance. If the 22 foot distance you gave earlier is correct, you're looking at 13-14, like I mentioned earlier.

I'm going to go with the 12 foot distance for now.

I'm not going to mess with fancy, motorized masking systems. Even with $20,000, there just isn't room in the budget unless you want to take a big hit on the projector and speakers.

There are also many complications when it comes to choosing a screen size and aspect ratio. I love, personally, to have my 2.35:1 aspect movies be larger than my 16:9 or 1.85:1 aspect movies. But there are also several films, like The Dark Knight, Dark Night Rises, Tron: Legacy, and Mission Impossible 4 that are largely 2.35:1 aspect movies, but also include IMAX sequences in 16:9 aspect. And in those instances, the 16:9 IMAX sequences are meant to be larger than the 2.35:1 sequences.

Several 2.35:1 aspect movies also include subtitles that are placed in the lower "black bar".

Bottom line, with this budget, and given what you said about wanting a truly HUGE screen experience anyway, the easiest solution is to just go for a 40 degree viewing angle in a 16:9 aspect ratio. Don't even worry about masking or changing the sizes. Just view 2.35:1 aspect movies with the black bars, and view 16:9 content in HUGE 40 degree viewing angle format.

With the 12 foot viewing distance, that's going to equate to a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen. I know your plans had you sitting even closer and using an even bigger screen. But I've got to say, that would be absolutely overwhelming the way you had it. I mean, you can go even bigger if you really want to, but there comes a point where you're having to physically turn your whole head, just to see one side of the screen or the other! That is not enjoyable. You shouldn't have to watch a movie or TV show as though you were at a tennis match! There IS such a thing as too big a screen ;) 120" at 12 feet is huge. I'd stick with that.

Happily, 120" 16:9 is a very common screen size :)

Given the 40 degree field of view, I'm going to suggest opting for pseudo-4K resolution in the projector, and a 4K acoustically transparent screen to go with it!

Elite Screens has their new AcousticPro-4K screen material, which is perfect for this application. The angular weave of the screen is so fine that you truly cannot see any perforations in the screen, and there's no degradation of the image from moire or "sparkles".

For some reason, Elite Screens' consumer website is down at the moment I'm writing this. Their custom installer website shows the Elite Prime Vision Peregrine HD screen and ezFrame screen versions that are sold only by custom installers. Only prices I could find are dealer prices - so I'm not sure what the mark up is going to be.

The ezFrame is a very basic, black painted frame. Dealer price shown is a little over $1300 for the 120" 16:9 A4K version. The Peregrine HD frame is a high end 3.5" bevelled, black velour-wrapped frame. Dealer price shown is way up at $2600 though. And, like I say, I don't know what the mark up will be over those prices.

Since you're putting in your own stage, and maybe curtains or other treatments for that false wall at the front anyway, the obvious choice would be to just get the basic ezFrame version and then build your own, fancy, black velvet frame around it if you want to. That'd be much less expensive. It should also be easier to find and purchase the ezFrame version, as it is sold by both custom installers and Elite Screens' Consumer division.\

The AcousticPro-4K material isn't being shown for sale by any of the Consumer online Elite Screens' dealers yet. But, like I say, at the moment I'm writing this, the Elite Screens Consumer website is down, and I can't fully check on availability. They seem to be more focused on rolling out the A4K material to custom installers first though. Elite was showing their Peregrine HD frames with A4K material at IFA and CEDIA recently - trade shows for custom installers. So your best bet for getting this awesome screen material is probably going to be via a custom installer ;)

So figuring out how much the screen is going to cost is a bit of a guessing game. Looking at the dealer portal website, the regular ezFrame 120" 16:9 with just the regular matte white, solid screen is $870. That same screen from the Consumer division sells for about $800 online. So it's possible that the dealer portal is showing MSRP. They do label it as "list" price. The AcousticPro-4K material should add about $400-$500 to the price. So I'm kinda crossing my fingers for you that the dealer portal prices are, in fact, MSRP because the "list" prices shown do line up pretty well with the Consumer division online prices. Or it could just be the custom installer division gouging people on prices, which is pretty much what custom installers are all about!

Anywho, for now, we can assume that a 120" 16:9 AcousticPro-4K screen is going to cost you somewhere in the range of $1300-$2600 or so, depending on the type of frame you want. Like I say, I'd just opt for the least expensive ezFrame version and then make your own fancy frame around it as part of that false wall ;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
So now we come to the projector itself. And this is a pretty easy choice. The new JVC DLA-X55R Procision Consumer or DLA-RS48 JVC Pro version will be coming out in November for $5000. Those two models: DLA-X55R and DLA-RS48 are identical projectors, by the way. One is simply the consumer model number while the other is the professional division model number ;)

While the D-iLA (LCoS) panels themselves are 1920 x 1080 resolution, JVC is using a technology they're calling "e-shift2" to create pseudo-4K resolution.

By all accounts, the newest models are brighter, sharper, and better all around. When it comes to black levels, JVC has been king of the heap for years now. The DLA-X55R/DLA-RS48 are the first models to bring this pseudo-4K resolution to this sort of price point. They're just too exciting to pass up with your budget and dedicated room! And since you want to sit so close to such a large screen, the 4K resolution on the AcousticPro-4K screen material is really going to pay off for you!

The X55R/RS48 can also do 3D if you ever want to. JVC is using new RF active-shutter glasses with these models. But the glasses and RF signal emitter are sold separately, so 3D is purely an option with these models. Again, 3D will probably look too dim on a 120" screen anyway. But it's sort of nice to have it as an option anyway, just in case ;)

So we've already burned through around $6500-$7500 on the projector and screen. But that's ok. That's what a dedicated theater room is all about! Might as well get the very best that you can, right? :D
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Now let's take some time to talk acoustic room treatments.

Everything regarding room treatments is about addressing reflected sound waves. In a theater, the sound coming from the front of the room is supposed to be very clear and precise. You should be able to pin point where sounds are coming from. And have great imaging and detail. The sound should “wash over” you and then “disappear” behind you.

So at the front of the room, and directly behind you, reflections are pretty much the enemy :p So what makes the most sense is to absorb reflections at the front of the room. To do that, we put absorption panels on the front wall (behind the front speakers), on the side walls where the reflections will be strongest, and on the ceiling in between the speakers and the listeners. The floor should also be carpeted or have a nice, thick rug in between the speakers and listeners.

Directly behind the listeners, we also want to absorb the sound so that sound waves do not bounce straight off of the back wall and come back your ears from behind you. This is actually the main reason why so many people have intelligibility problems with dialogue in a lot of systems. Many people have their seat pushed right up against the back wall. If you go with two rows of seating, you'll want to avoid this problem for the rearmost row.

The surround speakers are a different story though. Their sound is meant to envelop and “blanket” the audience. So for the rear portion of the room, it is better to scatter the sound waves with diffusers, rather than absorbing them. You WANT the sound bouncing around back there. So diffusion is your friend :)

And I've already talked about bass traps previously. Treating the vertical corners of your room with bass traps is where you'll get the most sonic benefit.

So how do we accomplish all this and make it look good? Thankfully, it's not too hard :)

We start with the Acoustimac Home Theater Room Package XL . This is a tremendous deal on all the absorption and bass traps you will need!

What you can do is upgrade to suede material, which looks great. And you can specify a mix of colors if you like. Acoustimac offers quite a few suede colors.

I would put 4 of the regular 48” x 24” x 2” thick panels on the front wall, behind your front 3 speakers and screen. I would put 3 panels on each side wall in between the speakers and seats. The final 2 panels can either go on the ceiling, or on the french doors – which is one of the reasons for the pneumatic door stops ;)

The eight 24” x 24” panels can be used on the ceiling, side or back walls to give you some options in terms of patterns and color arrangements. A mixture of black 48” panels with dark brown or tan 24” square panels can look really nice. Or you can use other colors that better match the paint and finish of your room.

I would also upgrade to the corner bass trap models, which are easier to hang and fit better into the corners. Two bass traps in each vertical corner will give you nearly floor to ceiling coverage, which is great!

Once you include shipping, with the suede and corner bass trap upgrades, you're looking at a little over $1900.

To complete your room treatments, head on over to GiK Acoustics for some of their excellent QRD Diffusor panels . Four of those would be nice for the rear portion of the room. You could put two on each side wall behind the listening position, or one on each side wall, and then one on each side of the back wall, right next to the corner bass traps.

You're looking at $680 including shipping for those.

So all told, this package of room treatments is going to run you roughly $2600. They'll look great with the suede material. But more importantly, they'll make your room sound better than any commercial movie theater or other person's house you've ever been in! These treatments are what make all the effort of a dedicated room and a $20,000 budget worth while!
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
So let's turn our attention to audio equipment now :)

For the front 3 speakers, I'm going to suggest something a little different and unique. Since you're putting the front 3 speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen and a false wall, I'm going to suggest getting three identical

Ascend Acoustics Sierra Horizon (Sierra Tower Center) .

And I'm going to suggest sticking with the stock NrT tweeter. I'm a huge fan of the RAAL ribbon tweeter that's offered as an upgrade. But in this case, sticking with the regular NrT tweeter makes more sense. For one thing, the NrT tweeter is more dynamic, which, for a movie theater, is a nice advantage. The NrT tweeter also has better vertical dispersion, which means it'll work better for you if you decide to have more than one row of seating.

But the most obvious reason is because these speakers are going behind an acoustically transparent screen. And while the AcousticPro-4K material is very good in terms of low attenuation and not mucking up the sound very much at all, it does still attenuate and alter the sound a little bit, and the extreme nuance of the RAAL ribbon isn't really going to be worth the cost of the upgrade when the sound is going to have to go through a layer of fabric first. The NrT is still a fantastic tweeter, and it'll punch its sound right through that A4K screen material. So it's the obvious choice, IMO ;)

Let me explain a little bit about these Sierra Horizon speakers. The reason I'm suggesting using three identical Horizons across the front is mainly because the Horizon is front ported, while the Sierra Towers are rear ported. You've got constricted space behind that false wall and screen, and the speakers are going to be fairly close to the physical front wall right behind them. The front ported Horizon speakers are going to work a lot better in this placement.

Having all three speakers be the horizontal Horizons also makes mounting them behind the screen easier. You can simply put them on identical speaker stands, or just build yourself a simple table/bench to hold them all.

And let's address the elephant in the room ;) Even though the Horizon seems like a dedicated Center speaker, and it has a horizontal form factor, it still works brilliantly as Main Left & Right speakers. Dave F. himself, over at Ascend, has raved about how well they work as mains, and there's even a YouTube video with Dave F. testing them out - in horizontal position - as Main Left & Right speakers.

I know this is an unusual suggestion. But for $1000 each, the Sierra Horizons are phenomenal speakers. And they're ideal for a setup like yours, with an acoustically transparent screen, and about 2 feet of space behind a false wall.

What I would suggest strongly in a room like yours, and with a huge 40 degree field of view screen, is to position the front 3 speakers a little bit higher than normal, and then angle them down slightly to aim them straight at the listening position. The reason for doing this is to perfectly match the center of the screen itself with the sound source, and to also give you better coverage if you decide to use more than one row of seats.

I'm not talking about putting the speakers way up high. Just so that the physical bottom of the speakers is roughly in line with the top of your head when you're sitting down, rather than having the tweeters right at ear level like normal. You would then angle the speakers downwards just slightly to aim them perfectly.

So I'd recommend some 36" tall speaker stands for the Horizons - although you might need to adjust that figure if you're building a raised stage for the screen and speakers, or if you're putting the primary row of seats on a floated floor or riser as shown in the drawings.

How ever you end up placing the front three Horizons, decouple them! At this price point, there's zero reason to balk at the Auralex MoPads , even at their normal $40 price. The MoPads are effective decouplers, but they are also perfect for letting you angle your speakers downwards just slightly. That's exactly what they were designed for in mixing studios, where the studio monitor speakers are typically on a bridge that has the tweeters slightly above the ears of the mixing position. The slight downward angle is just one more way to reduce reflections off of the ceiling and get a slightly higher ratio of direct-to-reflected sound.

So three identical Ascend Acoustics Sierra Horizon speakers with the stock NrT tweeters, all on Auralex MoPads across the front. That's going to be about $3200 once you include shipping. Get the Sierra Horizons in the standard matte black finish, by the way. No sense in paying extra for a nicer finish that you're never going to see! And the matte black is best for behind the screen anyway, as it won't reflect back any light that makes it through the screen ;)

For surround speakers, I'm going to suggest going with a different brand for reasons of price, style, easier mounting on the side and back walls, and because this is a theater, and I feel very strongly that you should have diffuse surround speakers.

In a full-sized, commercial movie theater, there are multiple speakers on each side wall, and they are up high. This is because the surround speakers are supposed to envelop and "blanket" the audience. They're job is to create ambience and play the occassional sound effect. They are NOT supposed to draw your attention away from the screen!

Many people mistakenly think that surround speakers are "rear" speakers that you're supposed to notice all the time. Many people place monopole speakers at ear level, and don't have them in the correct spots.

Try to follow the THX Guidelines for Speaker Placement . You'll notice that these call for diffuse surround speakers directly to either side, monopole surround back speakers directly behind you, and all 4 of the surround and surround back speakers are up high - about 2-3 feet above your head when you're sitting, but not closer than 2 feet to the ceiling. So about 5-6 feet off of the ground, in other words ;)

So I'm going to suggest you get one pair of the Focal Chorus SR800V bi-pole surrounds, and one pair of the Chorus SR700V monopole surrounds for the surround back positions.

The SR800V retail for $1200/pair. The SR700V retail for $700/pair.

These are very attractive looking speakers. They mount very easily on the wall. It isn't vital that the surround speakers perfectly match the front 3 speakers. They're jobs are very different. But the Focal surrounds are actually a very good sonic match for the Ascend Horizon speakers anyway! They have a very similar quickness and clarity to their sound. And these will all work extremely nicely together.

Also, remember how I suggested a 6 foot wide entrance with pneumatic door closers and limiting the doors to no more than 110 degrees of swing into the theater room? Well part of that is so that you can mount the SR700V surround back speakers on either side of the entryway :) That'll give you nice positioning that matches the THX Guidelines for TrueHD and DTS-HD speaker placement. See? I think ahead ;) You don't want the doors swinging wide open and hitting either the surround back speakers or the acoustic panels mounted on the doors.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
We've spent somewhere in the range of $14,000-$15,000 for the projector, screen, acoustic treatments, 7 speakers, and decouplers for the front 3 speakers so far. See? It goes quick!

A great pair of subwoofers is next. I'll just cut right to the quick and suggest getting a pair of SVSound PC12-Plus cylinder subs and a pair of Auralex SubDude decoupling risers for them.

The pair of PC12-Plus have appropriate output levels for your room size, and they are versatile as can be! They have a plethora of tuning options. You can even run them sealed if you like. And the cylinder form factor with the black velour finish is perfect. You could actually put these behind the screen if you like. Their compact footprint will allow for that, while most of the big box subwoofers would be too large. Or you could stand these subs in corners, where they'll totally disappear into the blackness.

Shipping is included from SVSound, so you're looking at $2500 for the pair of PC12-Plus cylinder subs and the pair of Auralex SubDude risers to decouple them.

$16,500 - $17,500 spent. We're at the home stretch!

So now let's connect and power it all!

Frankly, you're the perfect candidate for the Onkyo TX-NR1010 as your receiver. Other folks have already talked about Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ HT dual subwoofer setup, and THX Ultra2 Plus certification. The TX-NR1010 has all of that, plus the best video processing in any AV Receiver right now. It will actually upscale to 4K, but you won't actually be making use of that, even though the JVC projector is pseudo-4K. The DLA-X55R/DLA-RS48 still only accepts 1080p signals. But the TX-NR1010 can do 4K upscaling if you ever upgrade one day! :p

The TX-NR1010 can easily power the surround and surround back speakers on its own. But those three Sierra Horizon speakers up front could benefit from some external amplification :D

Lots of other folks have already mentioned Emotiva, and that's certainly what I will recommend, too. The Emotiva XPA-3 is ideal for this situation.

You'll notice that I linked to accessories4less.com for the TX-NR1010. No sense in paying the full MSRP on this unit. A4L is a fully authorized dealer, and you still get a full 1 year warranty.

Buying the TX-NR1010 from A4L and the XPA-3 from Emotiva will give you ridiculously good processing and power for right around $2000!

So we're at $18,500 - $19,500, depending on a few options. You see now just how quickly the budget goes! And why I didn't recommend quad subwoofers or the Ultra series subs – as much as I love both those ideas!

You've still got cables and wires to purchase, all of which should come from Bluejeanscable.com as far as I'm concerned. Bluejeans sells American made, broadcast quality cables. So they are absolutely, without question, the “go to” for a nice theater like this.

We haven't talked about sources at all. I don't know what your situation is for cable or satellite TV. I'm not sure what you want to do for Blu-ray and other discs. Videogame systems. Streaming boxes or AppleTV. You might want to consider a HTPC or other mass network storage solution as well.

Two more things we CAN talk about right now though are the remote and power protection.

The subs and amp can plug straight into a wall outlet. They have their own power protection built in. The rest should definitely be power protected though, and I consider battery backup VITAL for the projector and your cable or satellite DVR. When the power goes out – as it does on all of us at some point or another – you definitely want to be able to shut things down properly. Let the cooling fan keep running on your front projector the way it is supposed to. Lots of people have blown projector bulbs from that. You'll want to be able to save a videogame in progress, or properly shut down an HTPC or any other device with a hard drive. And for the DVR, having battery backup will let you keep recording during a black out! I can't stress enough how nice that is! And you won't lose your guide data either, which is also nice.

APC AV is the company to go with for battery backup and power protection. A system this nice, you might want to consider one of the S-Type units, but those are rather expensive. I use a J-Type J15BLK myself, which has been one of the best things I've ever purchased.

You don't really need to spend that much though. The J25B is pretty much the perfect, affordable unit. It'll definitely give you time to shut everything down properly. And with everything else turned off, it can run your DVR off of the battery for about an hour.

Finally, I'd just keep things simple and go with the Harmony 900 remote .

It's RF signal means you can have all of your equipment hidden in that area under the stairs or in an equipment closet. I personally find the layout of the hard buttons to be pretty much perfect. And even though the Harmony software is old and janky at this point, they still have the best and most complete library of commands. And so long as you're willing to put the time in (and pull your hair out), the software IS powerful, and you can customize the remote to your heart's content!

So that's it! That's a killer $20,000 system. And I STILL had to really watch the budget! Simply put though, this is what I would purchase if I had your room and budget. It's complete (except for sources), I can almost guarantee its better thought out that what you'll get from most custom installers. And it will look and sound astonishingly good!

Hope that helps. And best of luck!
 
Last edited:
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
OP, go lengthwise with the room, always, unless there is some special reason not too.

3) Having it in that location might make it difficult for you to access the back of your equipment, unless you use a fairly fancy and expensive rack that can pull out, and/or rotate.
FWIW Tejay, if it was my* budget of 20k, and that's where the stuff went for sure, I would desire such a fairly fancy and expensive rack here, Middle Atlantic if I could swing it. (Excuse my taking snippets from your post, FR.)

Then we've really gotta talk about where you're gonna put your seats, and exactly what the seating is going to be. Right now, the two rows are shown a little bit close together for my liking. I find 5.5 feet from the back of one row to the back of the other row to be about perfect. Right now, you're only showing about 4.5 feet, which could easily lead to someone in the back row kicking the head of the front row if they're fully reclined ;)
Agreed, and that's with compact-functioning HT-specific seating in mind. Even 5.5' is pretty close, and it's possible you might need even more than that; I'd say 5.5' is probably the starting min according to my limited experience. There is a proper/technical term to describe the distance between the same points on rows of seating, I gotta ask my friend what it was again.

So I'm really thinking with what you've said, AND because you've said you don't really care about 3D (which works out great, frankly ;) ) you could have your eyes and ears at about 13-14 feet from the physical front wall of the theater room. That'll put the physical back wall about 7 feet behind your ears, which is a nice distance to have for ideal surround sound. This would pretty much make a 2nd row a no-go. But if you're really planning on just one row anyway, this would be ideal.
If it's just as easy to do a 2nd row, I would do it. Of course, it's not just as easy, but it's nice to have. I typically find myself in the back row for foreign titles, so that the eyes don't have to shift as much to read subtitles, for instance.

Keeping the false wall at the front with an acoustically transparent screen and the speakers behind that screen with about 2 feet to work with from the screen to the physical front wall is great! That'll give you an 11-12 foot viewing distance with this seating plan, which is a really nice distance in a home theater. 10 feet is a bit close in a theater this size. You'd sort of feel as though you're sitting on top of the screen!
Depending on the speakers chosen, 2ft can be a little tight. That is one of the nice things perhaps of getting custom designed speakers; he will know the room dimensions, the spacing between speakers, and boundaries. In fact, you might be able to go completely in wall with the front 3, just sayin', where there is no BSC designed into the speakers, for example, and you get to keep the max amount of space the room has to offer. If you then add infinite baffle sub, again, you keep 100% of the room's volume.

I'm all for wanting to go BIG for the screen size. But you're going to want to consider how you'll handle 2.35:1 aspect ratio content vs. 16:9 aspect ratio content. It's easy enough to just use a very large 16:9 aspect ratio screen. But that will mean "black bars" above and below the image for 2.35:1 content. In a theater of this size and price range, it's usually nicer if your 2.35:1 aspect content has the "bigger" screen, the height always stays the same, and you simply close in the right and left sides of the screen for 16:9 aspect content.

This gets a bit tricky though - especially with an acoustically transparent screen. To start, motorized screen masking systems are not cheap! And the least expensive ones are not acoustically transparent, so now you'd have to make sure that your Front Left & Right speakers are within the borders of the 16:9 aspect screen. Otherwise, the masking, when closed, will block the sound. Acoustically transparent, motorized masking systems are prohibitively expensive. As in over half your budget all by themselves! So yeah, that's not gonna happen :p

Frankly, we need to talk more about this. I'm out of time right at this moment. But again, work big to small, anyway. We should sort out the exact layout of the room and the seating first. We'll worry about the screen after that.
While I don't necessarily agree with your idea of 2.35 being usually nicer, regardless, it doesn't have to be cost prohibitive in the sense of being automated; there are fixed panels, including AT panels from Seymour.

What can get stupidly expensive however is with the choice of anamorphic lens. It can be stupid expensive, and while it depends on who you ask, many a videophile would say not to skimp here, as you ARE distorting the image, to have it distorted once more by vertical stretch. The main bonus IMO is that (almost) 100% of the full light capability of the PJ will be used no matter which AR is being viewed. I don't think that's going to be necessary here. Most especially if he goes with DPI. Also, there are other issues besides cost with going anamoprhic, and that is what does he do when he watches the Batman movies with changing AR? Or other weirdo ARs like the Smilebox of the old Cinerama classics. (Well, I guess you could leave it as a very small pic on the 16:9. I honestly don't know what people would do in this case.)


Certainly if the OP is willing to toss out aesthetics and size constraints, bang for the buck goes up considerably. I mean, for just a hair over a thousand bucks, you can get a prebuilt package like this:

Data-Bass

Few people are just going to pop that thing in their living room, but if you can hide it/live with the ugly factor, you're getting huge output, and as near as I can see, reasonably flawless measured performance. If you're up for DIY, you can possibly drive that cost down even more.
I am unfamiliar with your rec, but you got my drift all right.

With some of the main channel amplifiers being mentioned, it'd still probably be a good idea to keep the electrical layout in mind, not to mention all the other equipment. Not saying you need five dedicated twenty amp circuits, but if something like an Emo XPR-5 is on the table along with multiple subwoofers, a projector, etc, you don't want a single 15 amp circuit feeding the room.
I didn't even look that amp up, but it will be the speakers themselves that will determine the power needed. If for example he used a set of Triple 12s, and that we believed the mftr spec of 101 sens, I'm sure a single 15 amp circuit will be plenty, no matter the choice of amp, including XPR5 or whatever.

I agree that the electrical layout should be kept in mind, and I trust that people who recommend very inefficient stuff will make sure to let the OP know of the particular compromise.

OK, I just now see the last post. I for one despise Harmony remotes. I would absolutely not use Harmony with your budget. JMO. I also would shy away from consumer subwoofers for this setup.

A possibility for a dual use riser, would be to use subs for your riser! You can also buy them as a flatpack kit. They are stupid efficient as well.

DTS-10 – Kit | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
This isn't going to sound right because I'm just picking out one thing that jostenmeat wrote :p

Just so we're clear, I'm onboard with pretty much everything he wrote.

But why would you shy away from ALL consumer subwoofers - even from specialty retailers like SVS, Rythmik and HSU - in a home theater that's only about 3500 cubic feet? This is...exactly what these subwoofers are made for! And they can more than handle the room size.

I mean yeah, if you're just all about infinite baffle systems or rotary fan subs, then that's cool. I can dig it :D But to dismiss ALL other subwoofers seems, well, a little eccentric :p I really don't see how a pair of SVS Plus or Ultra subs, or Rythmik F15HP or FV15, or HSU ULS-15 or VTF-15H are going to be any sort of disappointment.

Again, I'm just not understanding where all these recommendations for insanely high output subwoofers and speakers are coming from. It's 3500 cubic feet, folks! That's not that big!
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Dang. With all this good info from FR, makes me want to buy a new house with the room to do it myself.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm a little confused as to why everyone is focusing on high output capabilities for the speakers and subs. 22' x 18' x 9' is barely over 3500 cubic feet
I missed that. My family room is 20' x 18' x 12' and I use a Denon 3312 without amps. Before that I was only using a Denon 391. :D

So, yeah, he probably doesn't need any external amps.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top