The Crown XLS DriveCore Thread

[jinjuku]

So, guys, I've had my XLS 2000 for just under a week now.

Do I have anything conclusive to say about its sound? Of course not - I'm not so arrogant. But man, does my system sound good. The bass is effortless, any harsh sibilance seems to be completely gone, the speakers sound good whether at -40 or +3, and I hear layer upon layer of content in different recordings. Whether that's the amp or not, I can't say. But I honestly can't imagine a better amplifier being available in the whole world at any cost. I'd love for someone to reliably prove me wrong but as it is, I'm just happy.

I would recommend anyone with great speakers, whether you spent 2K, 5K, 20K, or 50K to give these amplifiers a shot. You might be really damn biased, but who knows, maybe this amp sounds better than the name-brand audiophile amp you're looking at. Or it sounds the same but weighs a fraction as much. Or it sounds the same but costs a fraction as much. Just clear your mind for a moment and buy one from a local store with a return policy. You can make any decisions after that yourself. You might find yourself with a few grand in your wallet and a better sounding system.

The only complaint I'd make about this amp is that the blue LEDs are pretty obnoxious. I had to hide the amp behind an external hard drive and a gamecube.

Make sure you mention this to Face over at PETT

 

[GranteedEV]

Make sure you mention this to Face over at PETT

...how come?

 

[jinjuku]

...how come?

He's one of them more than happy to bash 'pro-audio junk'. Plus in a thread about heat generation with the Peavey IPR he rather disingenuously posted a graphic of an IR Heat Image of the Peavey and trying to spin it as a hot running amp. Then two weeks later he's talking about how Class D amps run cool.

Basically lying to try to besmirch me because they didn't like my over all counter viewpoint to much of the BS him and the others keep slinging to the newbs over there. 2Face.

Here is 2Face post one

Post 2

 

[Irvrobinson]

So, guys, I've had my XLS 2000 for just under a week now.

Do I have anything conclusive to say about its sound? Of course not - I'm not so arrogant. But man, does my system sound good. The bass is effortless, any harsh sibilance seems to be completely gone, the speakers sound good whether at -40 or +3, and I hear layer upon layer of content in different recordings. Whether that's the amp or not, I can't say. But I honestly can't imagine a better amplifier being available in the whole world at any cost. I'd love for someone to reliably prove me wrong but as it is, I'm just happy.

I would recommend anyone with great speakers, whether you spent 2K, 5K, 20K, or 50K to give these amplifiers a shot. You might be really damn biased, but who knows, maybe this amp sounds better than the name-brand audiophile amp you're looking at. Or it sounds the same but weighs a fraction as much. Or it sounds the same but costs a fraction as much. Just clear your mind for a moment and buy one from a local store with a return policy. You can make any decisions after that yourself. You might find yourself with a few grand in your wallet and a better sounding system.

The only complaint I'd make about this amp is that the blue LEDs are pretty obnoxious. I had to hide the amp behind an external hard drive and a gamecube.

How do they sound at very low listening levels? Any audible hiss?

I'm not getting the blue LED thing with US-designed pro audio these days. Super-bright and no defeat. The Benchmark stuff is the same way. I saw a post on another forum from a guy who dabbed some black silicone over the LED for the input he was using on his Benchmark DAC.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How do they sound at very low listening levels? Any audible hiss?

I'm not getting the blue LED thing with US-designed pro audio these days. Super-bright and no defeat. The Benchmark stuff is the same way. I saw a post on another forum from a guy who dabbed some black silicone over the LED for the input he was using on his Benchmark DAC.

There is no hiss at all from 1 ft away. But I don't get the blue LED either. Why don't they just make the amps simple like those old NHT sub amps? Or the Outlaw monoblock amps? Just simple. No need for flashy lights or anything.

 

[Adam]

Maybe the pro amps have those bright lights so that it's easier for someone with multiple amps and speakers in a larger soundstage to quickly see if one has gone down? Just a thought.

The overall looks of those make me baulk. I also like a more simple look.

Putting something over the led is by far the easiest thing to do. I imagine that it wouldn't be too difficult to wire a resistor in line with the LED to make it dimmer...unless it's on a circuit card that's flush against the front face.

 

[jinjuku]

Most people if they can will hide them out of site. A little dab of paint will do it too.

You can't have it all. At least not yet. The tremendous value and SQ that Crown offers is nothing short of amazing.

 

[Adam]

Hi, guys. Do you have any idea how these Crowns would compare against an NHT Power 5 amp? I'm asking because the Power 5, being discontinued and on the used market, isn't that much more expensive per channel than the Crowns - but I don't know how the ICE modules compare between the two designs. Have there been significant improvements in those modules over the past four to five years? Thanks.

 

[GranteedEV]

How do they sound at very low listening levels? Any audible hiss?

When I first set it up, I heard a ground loop and some hiss. So I went and played around with things. I lowered the gain a good bit (it's at around 1 o clock I think) and I had to change the outlet the Crown was hooked up in. Mixing chassis-grounded consumer gear with pro gear can be a headache WRT ground loops and i will give that disclaimer. All-Balanced gear would probably be a much better idea. *shrug*. I also ensured that the soft clipping mode was OFF.

Perhaps the lower gain would not work with a lesser receiver's pre-outs, but I know mine can output a good 7 volts so I wasn't too concerned.

Now, I do still hear a bit of hiss in the RAAL if I'm about 5 inches away Perhaps playing a bit more with the gain staging would take that away. I don't know. Whatever I have right now seems very satisfactory. When I feel like it i'll actually try to get a perfect gain structure going, just not yet. At 8 or 9 inches away I don't hear a thing from the RAAL. I imagine that being a very light ribbon element with a huge magnet, it has more hiss than other tweeter might, even when padded down to 87db.

 

[ImcLoud]

I had an old receiver in my bedroom a few years back that had the worst amber glow to the screen.... I tinted it with automotive tint, a small piece of tint {I got it for free from a local car audio store, they throw enough away to tint a couple cars}.. It worked perfectly I would still see what it said but it took out the harsh glow... maybe worth a try, instead of smearing silicone on your components..

Another option would be going to office max getting a tinted plastic cover binder and cutting a small peice to cover your screen with some 3 m tape to hold it on...

 

[ahblaza]

When I first set it up, I heard a ground loop and some hiss. So I went and played around with things. I lowered the gain a good bit (it's at around 1 o clock I think) and I had to change the outlet the Crown was hooked up in. Mixing chassis-grounded consumer gear with pro gear can be a headache WRT ground loops and i will give that disclaimer. All-Balanced gear would probably be a much better idea. *shrug*. I also ensured that the soft clipping mode was OFF.

Perhaps the lower gain would not work with a lesser receiver's pre-outs, but I know mine can output a good 7 volts so I wasn't too concerned.

Now, I do still hear a bit of hiss in the RAAL if I'm about 2.5 inches away Perhaps playing a bit more with the gain staging would take that away, but I don't have the patience or equipment to get it perfect, especially since 7 volts is not "unlimited" preout headroom and the SR6003 is not exactly an ultimate preamp in source direct mode.

Whatever I have right now seems very satisfactory.

Grant, I had a ground loop and hiss with mine, rather than go crazy trying to figure it out, I just lifted the ground leg of amp plugged into my SS and that into a portable GFCI, problem solved, I hope. Dead solid quiet. I'm using the amp gain at about 80% and adjusting levels in my Onkyo 809, all I can say is this amp never even shows any sign of strain or wimping out, in a 11 pound package. I found out the 1000 has a SNR of 97dB, the 15-2500 are all rated at 103dB, I found that interesting. What advantage is having the soft clipping turned off, and is it in the manual how to do so? My 809 specs say:
Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance: 200 mV/470 Ohm (pre-out) and
Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance 4.6 V/470 Ohm (pre-out). So am I to understand that the preamp section of the 809 has 4.7 V output, if so, is this adequate to drive an external amp like the 2000, the reason being your Marantz has 7 volts. Sorry for all the questions, but everything sounds so good with this amp, maybe I just answered my own question Thanks.
Jin 2, I like that......
Cheers Jeff

 

[Irvrobinson]

Grant, I had a ground loop and hiss with mine, rather than go crazy trying to figure it out, I just lifted the ground leg of amp plugged into my SS and that into a portable GFCI, problem solved, I hope. Dead solid quiet. I'm using the amp gain at about 80% and adjusting levels in my Onkyo 809, all I can say is this amp never even shows any sign of strain or wimping out, in a 11 pound package. I found out the 1000 has a SNR of 97dB, the 15-2500 are all rated at 103dB, I found that interesting. What advantage is having the soft clipping turned off, and is it in the manual how to do so? My 809 specs say:
Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance: 200 mV/470 Ohm (pre-out) and
Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance 4.6 V/470 Ohm (pre-out). So am I to understand that the preamp section of the 809 has 4.7 V output, if so, is this adequate to drive an external amp like the 2000, the reason being your Marantz has 7 volts. Sorry for all the questions, but everything sounds so good with this amp, maybe I just answered my own question Thanks.
Jin 2, I like that......
Cheers Jeff

First of all, his name isn't Grant, so he says.

The difference in SNR specs is probably irrelevant.

The 809 specs are very good, because it is rated into 470 ohm loads, which is much lower than the input impedance of most consumer equipment, which is typically rated between 10K ohms and 100K ohms. The lower the impedance the more current is required to maintain a given voltage level, so this implies a robustly designed pre-amp stage.

The need for high output voltages (>2v) is to drive high-power amps to full output. Many high-end amps provide 26db of gain, so to drive a high power amp to full output may take between three and five volts, since gain is fixed and output power can vary. Lower power amps can often be driven to full output by less than two volts. Since many receivers have weak pre-amp stages (to save power and avoid heat) you now see a lot of high-power amps sporting very high gain, like 32db.

 

[GranteedEV]

I didn't want to answer Irv's other question without the system (and I have to stress that part - system, not amp) fresh on my mind. So I decided to listen to some stuff at lower levels.

From the New World Movement III - Cleveland Orchestra

If I had to guess the SPLs ranged from about 40db to 75db, give or take. First of all, every instrument even at low levels is very much "there" and the woodwind is unbelievably smooth. The most distinct part is the triangles in this track, they "popped" out at me even though they're literally VERY quiet. I enjoyed what I heard and the things that came to mind were that nothing felt muted.

Concerto a cinque Op. 9, No. 2 - I. Allegro e non presto - The English Concert

Not necessarily a "quiet" track like the last one, it has some very low level (~40 to 45db?) string instruments that are distinct and wonderful. The thing to note is that they are almost simultaneous to the higher level (~65 to 75db) oboe, which I imagine is a good test for intermodulation distortion. What kept coming to mind was "razor sharp". I can't help but feel like I was simply hearing the buttery precision of the RAAL / Neo8 and attributing it to the Crown. That's probably what it was. Either way, things sounded outstanding without any mud. Things tracked from low levels to mid flawlessly.

Haruka no Uchi - Nanase Hikaru

I listened at about -33 on the receiver. Pretty quiet overall, maybe around 50db on average? What can I say? Nothing. Just perfect. There's a little clicking noise in the last ~30% of the track that I was just amazed to be hearing. Again it's simultaneous to the rest of the track yet clearly distinct here. I had shivers through this whole thing. And did I mention how gorgeous the highs were? Oh, and the instrument layering from back to front and left to right was totally palpable.

One Mic - Nas

This track is interesting. it exists to show the upward and downward range of the human voice alone, as it makes its transition from a soft whisper to a passionate rant. So I thought it would be a perfect track for this. The lowest stuff can be a bunch of mud on lesser systems. I put it on -60 (The lowest it goes is -71 where you have to be up close to even hear sound) on the receiver and sat down. SPL was probably around 15db to 35db if I had to guess. Whatever I could hear, was clear and intelligible. That is all.

I'm not gonna lie though. This system wants me to play it really ****ing loud

Disclaimer - Take none of the above db values as facts. They are just wild guesses.

 

[GranteedEV]

What advantage is having the soft clipping turned off, and is it in the manual how to do so? My 809 specs say:

I dunno exactly, but Wolf over at techtalk suggested it, and I trust his suggestion

We don't really need soft clipping because chances are we'll never reach hard clipping.

Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance: 200 mV/470 Ohm (pre-out) and
Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance 4.6 V/470 Ohm (pre-out). So am I to understand that the preamp section of the 809 has 4.7 V output, if so, is this adequate to drive an external amp like the 2000,

It's adequate. More never hurts however, because an ideal gain staging job has your preamp clipping exactly the same time as your amp starts to clip, which also means you have the gain dial on the amp correctly set rather than randomly set to 80%

The less gain you use on the amp, the less preamp noise is amplified. But you don't want to use so little gain that you're not reaching full output power.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I didn't want to answer Irv's other question without the system (and I have to stress that part - system, not amp) fresh on my mind. So I decided to listen to some stuff at lower levels.

From the New World Movement III - Cleveland Orchestra

If I had to guess the SPLs ranged from about 40db to 75db, give or take. First of all, every instrument even at low levels is very much "there" and the woodwind is unbelievably smooth. The most distinct part is the triangles in this track, they "popped" out at me even though they're literally VERY quiet. I enjoyed what I heard and the things that came to mind were that nothing felt muted.

Concerto a cinque Op. 9, No. 2 - I. Allegro e non presto - The English Concert

Not necessarily a "quiet" track like the last one, it has some very low level (~40 to 45db?) string instruments that are distinct and wonderful. The thing to note is that they are almost simultaneous to the higher level (~65 to 75db) oboe, which I imagine is a good test for intermodulation distortion. What kept coming to mind was "razor sharp". I can't help but feel like I was simply hearing the buttery precision of the RAAL / Neo8 and attributing it to the Crown. That's probably what it was. Either way, things sounded outstanding without any mud. Things tracked from low levels to mid flawlessly.

Haruka no Uchi - Nanase Hikaru

I listened at about -33 on the receiver. Pretty quiet overall, maybe around 50db on average? What can I say? Nothing. Just perfect. There's a little clicking noise in the last ~30% of the track that I was just amazed to be hearing. Again it's simultaneous to the rest of the track yet clearly distinct here. I had shivers through this whole thing. And did I mention how gorgeous the highs were? Oh, and the instrument layering from back to front and left to right was totally palpable.

One Mic - Nas

This track is interesting. it exists to show the upward and downward range of the human voice alone, as it makes its transition from a soft whisper to a passionate rant. So I thought it would be a perfect track for this. The lowest stuff can be a bunch of mud on lesser systems. I put it on -60 (The lowest it goes is -71 where you have to be up close to even hear sound) on the receiver and sat down. SPL was probably around 15db to 35db if I had to guess. Whatever I could hear, was clear and intelligible. That is all.

I'm not gonna lie though. This system wants me to play it really ****ing loud

Disclaimer - Take none of the above db values as facts. They are just wild guesses.

This is very encouraging. The concerns many people have about pro audio amps are that such amps are optimized for large venue sound reinforcement, so they won't sound good at low levels. Your experience, especially considering you're using a Phil 2, seems to render those concerns unwarranted, at least with this amp.

From the New World is one of my favorite selections. Good choice.

While the heavyweight ATI is adequate for my needs, so I'm not looking to get rid of it, I often wish for an 11 pound solution rather than a 95lb solution.

 

[slipperybidness]

There is no hiss at all from 1 ft away. But I don't get the blue LED either. Why don't they just make the amps simple like those old NHT sub amps? Or the Outlaw monoblock amps? Just simple. No need for flashy lights or anything.

Man, y'all are showing your age

When was the last time one of you went out clubbing in the downtown nightlife?

Dark, possibly smokey and loud. I'm sure the pro guys and roadies really dig those bright LEDs. Nice for them but sucks for home use, bright lights on electronics is one of my pet-peaves. I like the black silicone idea. I usually use a sharpie or electrical tape.

 

[ahblaza]

First of all, his name isn't Grant, so he says.

The difference in SNR specs is probably irrelevant.

The 809 specs are very good, because it is rated into 470 ohm loads, which is much lower than the input impedance of most consumer equipment, which is typically rated between 10K ohms and 100K ohms. The lower the impedance the more current is required to maintain a given voltage level, so this implies a robustly designed pre-amp stage.

The need for high output voltages (>2v) is to drive high-power amps to full output. Many high-end amps provide 26db of gain, so to drive a high power amp to full output may take between three and five volts, since gain is fixed and output power can vary. Lower power amps can often be driven to full output by less than two volts. Since many receivers have weak pre-amp stages (to save power and avoid heat) you now see a lot of high-power amps sporting very high gain, like 32db.

Thanks Irv, I know his name is not Grant, I can't remember how he came up with that name, but I know it was explained somewhere on AH. Am I correct in assuming most pro amps have variable gain staging, as opposed to fixed gain on consumer gear. EMO amps are an example of high gain (32dB), correct? I guess the 6dB is not relevant, if so, why is the 1000 97dB compared to the rest of the XLS series at 103dB? Thanks my friend for the reply.

 

[Adam]

Thanks Irv, I know his name is not Grant, I can't remember how he came up with that name, but I know it was explained somewhere on AH.

Yep, right here.

That what the EV in GranteedEV stands for... While we're at it... guys..my name is NOT "Grant". Granteed is this giant robot:

SRWJ Granteed Attack Exhibition - YouTube

 

[ahblaza]

Man, y'all are showing your age

When was the last time one of you went out clubbing in the downtown nightlife?

Dark, possibly smokey and loud. I'm sure the pro guys and roadies really dig those bright LEDs. Nice for them but sucks for home use, bright lights on electronics is one of my pet-peaves. I like the black silicone idea. I usually use a sharpie or electrical tape.

Hey Slip, Saturday Night Fever was my favorite movie at the time, I also was at the pinnacle of my disco career then.

 

[ahblaza]

Yep, right here.

Thanks Adam, I knew you would chime in.. Eternal Velocity