If I were to upgrade my towers, which one of these is the best deal?

[Steve81]

Although when I compare my B&W 802D2 to my Salon2, KEF 201/2, Linkwitz Orion3, and Phil3, the B&W sound extremely neutral, crystal clear, and detailed to me.

Perhaps this post might be of use to you

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/913676-post2.html

 

[PENG]

I think the engineers who work for B&W are no different than many of us.

They went to universities and studied their butts off like all of us. They graduated with real degrees like the rest of us. They enjoy music and good sound like all of us. And they differ in opinions and preferences like the rest of us.

Let's not think that our opinions and preferences are the only ones correct.

If folks buy B&W, Wilson, Martin Logan, Magnepan, Def Tech, etc, after they have auditioned other speakers, they are not wrong and we should not make them feel that way.

Great point about buying speakers with great on-axis, off-axis, power response, etc. In the end, don't expect everyone to buy speakers if they don't like the sound of the speakers, even if the speakers have great "measurements".

Just one example is a member who bought Salk speakers based solely on measurements and user reviews from other forum members. He basically couldn't live with their sound. So he ended up auditioning other speakers and ended up buying KEF and selling the Salk.

This example could be for buying any brand of speakers solely based on measurements from Stereophile or Soundstage.

In the end, people will keep the speakers that sound great to them. It's the same destination, just different paths.

I agree with you. The B&W engineer who talked about how they pick components not only by specs on paper but by "hearing" them as well, has a doctoral degree. In my mind, you don't necessary need to have a degree at all to be an expert, but someone with a doctoral in a related field has a pretty good chance to be considered and accepted by many as experts. Just because he talked about something we don't believe does not automatically negate his expertise in his field. For example, many reputable speaker manfacturers, aside from B&W (e.g. Vandersteen just to name one) also advocate the sonic benefits of passive bi-amp and bi-wire, something many of us around here despise and dismiss, yet those manufacturers do make very decently/competently designed speakers.

I don't know half the names of those threw at me but I do have great respect for one, i.e. Dennis Murphy. I really want to try out a pair of Philharmonic 3 because somehow in addition to respect I also trust Dennis as a designer. When I made reference to self proclaimed experts I did not have any of those names in my mind and regardless, I much prefer peace to war. I do want to be clear that I have great respect for Grant, for his knowledge and being a real gentleman.

 

[PENG]

Although when I compare my B&W 802D2 to my Salon2, KEF 201/2, Linkwitz Orion3, and Phil3, the B&W sound extremely neutral, crystal clear, and detailed to me.

TLS Guy and PENG also think the B&W 800 Diamond sound very neutral to them.

I did, but of course that's just my own impression based on what I heard in the demo room and what I heard in concert halls but all just by memory, not A/B comparisons with anything other with just a couple other speakers. I understand what those graphs show, but I am not sure if there are other measurements that we have not seen, that may have influence on the final outcome.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did, but of course that's just my own impression based on what I heard in the demo room and what I heard in concert halls but all just by memory, not A/B comparisons with anything other with just a couple other speakers. I understand what those graphs show, but I am not sure if there are other measurements that we have not seen, that may have influence on the final outcome.

I can see us in court:

"Your honor, these B&W speakers don't have great off-axis FR; thus, they must not be neutral. I rest my case."

 

[GranteedEV]

I can see us in court:

"Your honor, these B&W speakers don't have great off-axis FR; thus, they must not be neutral. I rest my case."

"Your honor, these B&W speakers look really damn sexy in black gloss. Just let it off with some community service"

 

[PENG]

I can see us in court:

"Your honor, these B&W speakers don't have great off-axis FR; thus, they must not be neutral. I rest my case."

Same for break ups above 15 kHz that may not have any effects on a lot of human ears, but they must sound bad even if they are perfectly linear from 40 to 15,000. Bi-amp is different, even though its makes a different electrically but since it is not audible so it is just marketing hypes.. Of course I am just kidding...seriously, just kidding, no need to react.

 

[PENG]

"Your honor, these B&W speakers look really damn sexy in black gloss. Just let it off with some community service"

You know people can die from laughing in extreme situations so please.....

 

[PENG]

Well since no one seems to have much objection to KEF products except someone mentioned a couple of the Q models may not be that great, I pulled the trigger finally, hopefully will have them in a few days. It was a really tough decision though as I have to force myself to give up pursuing what I really wanted all along.

 

[GranteedEV]

Well since no one seems to have much objection to KEF products except someone mentioned a couple of the Q models may not be that great, I pulled the trigger finally, hopefully will have them in a few days. It was a really tough decision though as I have to force myself to give up pursuing what I really wanted all along.

what'd ya pull the trigger on? R900s?

 

[PENG]

what'd ya pull the trigger on? R900s?

You guessed right. Considered the 300 and the LS50 but can't afford the sub I would want and the stands. I hope the 900 will do the bass right in that room.

 

[monkish54]

You guessed right. Considered the 300 and the LS50 but can't afford the sub I would want and the stands. I hope the 900 will do the bass right in that room.

Congrats on your purchase!!!!

How much did they end up costing you?

And what color did you get??

Was it this one:

 

[macddmac]

I listened to the R900's on Sunday at RMAF in a standard hotel room- 2-2.5k cubic ft-yowza!... Must be some sub to make up the 3k diference between the smaller speakers and the 900's. I think you'll be very happy with the 900 towers solo though
Btw- they had the 300's in the same room, but were not in use- sold? (It was late in the day) I did hear the LS 50's next door, without sub, same size room and was really impressed for their size, they were no match for the 990's bass response obviously.
Cheers, Mac

 

[monkish54]

Although when I compare my B&W 802D2 to my Salon2, KEF 201/2, Linkwitz Orion3, and Phil3, the B&W sound extremely neutral, crystal clear, and detailed to me.

TLS Guy and PENG also think the B&W 800 Diamond sound very neutral to them.

I don't want to start a huge discussion again, but I think your using the word neutral when you mean "natural". If the B&W sounds natural to you guys, I am more than happy for you, and I hope you can afford it. I mean that with all honesty. I don't get to choose your preferences, your bias, or your speakers for you. Nor would I want to.

While the 800D might sound natural to you, it is not neutral. Neutral meaning it doesn't emphasis any frequency on-axis and does so minimally off-axis (and some other stuff I won't get into). (Within reason. It doesn't have to be +/- 0.5db. Maybe +/- 1-2db. Testing myself I can't hear 1db difference, but that is said to be the average difference in SPL that someone can hear.)

Also, let me clarify something. I don't think a speaker with +/- 3db is a terrible evil speaker, I just don't think it's the best of the best, but that doesn't mean I won't recommend it. The Soundfield M1 is +/- 3db, and I still recommend it AND think it's an excellent speaker. Would I want it over, say, the Salon 2? No, but that doesn't mean it's "bad". It just means it's not "the best". If someone told me they had a budget of 50K, I wouldn't recommend the same speaker as someone with a 2K budget. I pick the most neutral and well designed speaker I can find in that budget, and I recommend that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well since no one seems to have much objection to KEF products except someone mentioned a couple of the Q models may not be that great, I pulled the trigger finally, hopefully will have them in a few days. It was a really tough decision though as I have to force myself to give up pursuing what I really wanted all along.

DenPureSound did so much research on the R900. You know him. He even called and talked to KEF engineers. They even sent him plots, data. DPS only wish he had the money to buy the R900. Too bad.

Anyway, the data were impressive to DPS. He said everything was amazing. FR, distortion, Impedance, etc. Almost like the Reference line.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think your using the word neutral when you mean "natural"

"Neutral" and "Natural" both mean the same to me - the lifelike non-amplified sound of a piano, violin, cello, etc, in a symphony, concerto, chamber music, or the piano in my family room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...of course that's just my own impression based on what I heard in the demo room and what I heard in concert halls but all just by memory, not A/B comparisons with anything other with just a couple other speakers.

And that's how most people compare speakers and form pretty "concrete" impressions of the speakers - from memory of speakers at different time and places.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just because it's expensive, doesn't necessarily mean I'll like how it sounds right?

Right. Just because they are expensive, liked by some forum members, have good plots and reviews on Stereophile, etc, guarantees nothing.

It does give you good odds that you may like how they sound.

In the end, it's your money. If you are willing to buy before audition, that's your choice, but most people would recommend you buy after you audition.

After you have auditioned many brands and you still like the sound of B&W the best, then you should buy B&W. Listen to your ears, not what others tell you.

 

[Steve81]

While the 800D might sound natural to you, it is not neutral.

OTOH, just because a speaker measures neutrally doesn't guarantee that you're hearing what the artist intended, even disregarding the effects of the room. As an example, if you want rap music as the artist intended, which is going to get you closer, a pair of Philharmonics or Beats by Dr. Dre?

I don't want to start a huge discussion again

Why not? What else are forums for

 

[DS-21]

OTOH, just because a speaker measures neutrally doesn't guarantee that you're hearing what the artist intended, even disregarding the effects of the room. As an example, if you want rap music as the artist intended, which is going to get you closer, a pair of Philharmonics or Beats by Dr. Dre?

The Phils.

 

[Steve81]

The Phils.

How do you figure that?

Take Eminem as one simple example: whats the target market likely going to be listening to music on, Philharmonics or Beats by Dr. Dre? Do you think the engineer mixing the tracks will take that into account? Do you think the fact that Eminem is signed to Dr. Dre's record label has any impact on the matter? No offense, but I think you need to get real.