Hi! Welcome back
First up, I'm happy to hear that you're happy with your Martin Logan speakers. As we talked about before, they're nice speakers overall, but it does seem clear that you're having to turn the volume dial up pretty high in your room size and setup. That was anticipated. And it's a combination of the 616 receiver that isn't really up to the task of driving them on its own, plus the Martin Logan speakers themselves, which aren't really meant for a large room setting.
I'm hoping that you're starting to agree that we weren't just talking out of our rear ends with our advice
There's no magic in audio, and a lot of us have gone through exactly what you're going through now. It's all about matching the right products to your given circumstances and tastes.
I've said it over and over on this forum, but never skimp on the subwoofer! There's just no magic or tricks to it. You have a certain room size, you have certain desires and tastes in movies and music - that will tell you all you need to know in terms of what subwoofer(s) you really need.
I'm guessing the SVSound SB13-Ultra recommendation was based on trying to keep the price as low as possible (the SB13-Ultra is the least expensive "Ultra" model) and also trying to keep the size rather compact. As you said, the cylinder subs actually have the same small footprint and don't take up a lot of floor space. They're just much taller is all
I would say that the PC12-Plus is very likely sufficient in your room, just in terms of sheer output. And going with that cylinder model would get the price point even lower.
That said, if "chest thumping", "house shaking" bass is what you're after, nothing really beats the
Rythmik FV15HP ! That sub is a MONSTER in terms of sheer output - even besting the SVS Ultra subs everywhere above 25Hz! And just so it's clear, all the tactile "chest thumping" bass is in the 40Hz-ish range. The super low 20Hz stuff is the "blur your vision" and "give you the tingles" bass
The FV15HP puts you back into the same price range as the SVS Ultra subs (once you factor in shipping). It's also a VERY large subwoofer. So if floor space is a consideration, the PC12-Plus, PC13-Ultra or SB13-Ultra would all make better choices from a floorspace perspective.
These are all FANTASTIC subwoofers though. The only question is if you are willing to spend that much! I have to say that the PC12-Plus cylinder is the bargain of the bunch though. At $1200 shipped right now, it's the least expensive of the group, but right up there in terms of sheer output, while keeping the small footprint that the cylinder form factor affords.
I have to give a word of caution about the less expensive Marantz receivers that were listed from Accessories4Less. A couple of them are older models that do not support the new TrueHD and DTS-HD audio formats - although you can easily just have your Blu-ray player perform the audio decoding. That will make the Blu-ray player send out multi-channel PCM audio, which those Marantz receivers CAN handle via HDMI. The other thing is 3D support, which none of them have. And there's also Audyssey to consider.
So I come back to my strong recommendation for the
Onkyo TX-NR709 . What makes it SO worth the $450 price is the feature set it offers. 8 HDMI inputs - all of them ready for 3D and HD Audio. And Audyssey MultEQ XT is a big one. MUCH better room correction than the lesser "levels" of Audyssey or other brands of room correction, IMO.
The 709 on its own might still struggle a bit with those particular Martin Logan speakers in your room. It'll do better than the 616 on its own though, which should give you enough time to save up to add some external amplification for your front 3 speakers.
I'm not exactly sure what other words I can use to try and convince you of the value of the products I've been recommending. You've got the first hand experience now to go along with what I was trying to convey earlier. Skimping on the subwoofer didn't work out. The 616 has to have its volume dial cranked in order to get good output levels from those speakers in your room.
I'm not about pushing people to spend more money. I'm about trying to get people to spend their money in the best way possible. Sometimes that does mean paying a bit more. But never just for the sake of spending! Match the best products out there to your needs and your tastes. There's no magic way to get more performance from less.
I agree that the SB13-Ultra subwoofer likely isn't totally necessary. The folks at SVSound are very conservative and honest though. They don't go claiming that their subs can play louder than they truly can. So they base their recommendations on the true output limits of their subs, compare that to your room size and your tastes, and recommend the subwoofer in their lineup that they are sure can deliver what you're looking for! But most people overestimate how loud they really want their bass. Most folks don't listen at full THX Reference or Live Concert listening levels. And most people never ever notice the slight bit of distortion that creeps in when slightly lower output subs are pushed right to their limits.
Personally, I DON'T think the VTF-2 MK4 - as good as it is - is quite up to the task of handling your room size. Just personally, I'd be much more comfortable with the VTF-3 MK4. Or you could go back to one of my earliest recommendations, which was the SVSound PB12-NSD if you still have a desire to keep the price tag well under $1000.
If you're ok with going over $1000 just for the subwoofer though, then BY ALL MEANS, take SVSound's advice! The PC12-Plus, SB13-Ultra and Rythmik FV15HP are all within the same relative price range. Those are the subs to consider if you really want to bring the house down
The Onkyo TX-NR709 should simply be a lock at this point. You cannot get more in an AV Receiver for less.
I still very much want to encourage you to audition just a pair of the Ascend CMT-340SE speakers. I know you're happy with your Martin Logans. And I don't have any big problem with them or anything. But I really think that if you heard the Ascend CMT-340SE for yourself, and compared them head-to-head, there'd be no doubt left in your mind. The Ascends would stay, the Martin Logans would go back.
With the Ascend speakers, the Onkyo 709 could probably do just fine all on its own, actually. I'd NEVER say no to a great external amp in the future, but I'm quite confident you'd be just fine with the 709 driving the CMT-340SE speakers for the time being.
I hope you'll take all this into consideration
