Could use some help and advice about a new HT we are getting ready to install

[BAF]

My wife and I are planning on turning a 11' 8" wide by 15" long room into a home theater. We are definitely neophytes at this.

We listened to a lot of speakers. The best sounding to us was a Bowers & Wilkins set-up with 685 speakers upfront, HTM61B center, 685 rear channels, and an ASW61TB sub.

Question number one. Is this overkill in a room this size? Should we be going with something smaller? We heard it in their listening room and thought they were the best (We insisted on testing them blind so we would not have brand bias) but they did not seem keen on letting us borrow them for the house. Besides, we need to do some construction that will be specific to whichever speaker we buy so we could not test them the way they will be placed in the end.

We also need to get a receiver. I have to tell you, the Onkyo, Yamaha and Denon's we listened to sounded pretty much the same. They all seemed to have all the inputs we would need.

Question number two. Inputs and the various sound codes (whatever the right term is for things like THX, etc.) aside--these all seemed comparable from what we could tell in those regards. Is there something we are missing? How do you guys pick from among similar receivers? And how much power would it need to drive the speakers?

Question number three. Do we need a preamp and an amp along with the receiver?

We probably have approached this wrong and we think our local dealer thinks we are rubes. Unfortunately the guy is near us and no other dealer is. I want to make sure I don't get more system than I need yet maintain the quality I am seeking. Further I feel every time I ask a beginners question, it is making him lick his chops to sell me stuff I don't need.

Question number four. Are there question I should be asking beyond these?

Help!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

It sounds like you have a very good understanding of the proper approach.

Speakers: The first step should be to find a pair of speakers that sound good to your ears and I like the way you approached this.

I actually think that a solid set of bookshelf speakers crossed-over to a sub will work great in a room this size. So...I would consider the speakers a done deal.

AVRs: Pick the one with the features you need and the proper power to drive the 685's. THX doesn't matter what-so-ever but make sure it has all the latest codecs (they probably all do now) such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. I am a Denon guy. I am a big believer in Audyssey so I always pick an AVR with that vs one of the brands that use their own version of room correction.

Sub: Take it from a guy that has owned a million subs, skip the B&W and get a SVS. Just call them, describe your room and the will tell you which one you need. It should be a lot less expensive then the B&W and it be better.

Preamp/amp: You don't need a preamp and it's unlikely you need an amp in a room your size. The 685" have a Impedance of 8 ohms and sensitivity of 88db so they are pretty easy to drive. I would just get a Denon with 120-140 watts and be done with it. A good mid-fi AVR will have preouts so it's easy to add an amp later if you want/need to.

Cables/wires: Never spend much money on these. Use Bluejeans cable or Monoprice. Both are ID dealers, have great products and are very inexpensive.

Questions: You are asking the right questions. What are you doing on the video side?

 

[BAF]

Thank you for what is an extremely helpful response.

So the sub doesn't have to be from the same group as the speakers? The dealer was talking about the need to voice-match the speakers and that the easiest way to do it was to do the whole thing in B&W.

What is the best way to compare receivers? Should I be hearing a sound difference from one to another? Or do they all basically sound the same and it is the codecs and outputs and power that is the point of difference.

The dealer was pushing a Pioneer Elite VSX-50 for $600. Then I found out the thing isn't even on the market anymore. Does that matter? Should I not have been put off by that? Given the speakers, what should one budget for the AVR?

Actually, what sort of discounts, if any, are available on products like these?

Video: Here's a long answer to a short question. Figured I would again tell you how I came to this so you can tell me if I have approached this poorly or not.

The way I looked at it, speakers can stay with you much longer than TVs and receivers. I have a pair of speakers my Dad built in the late 60's that use on my stereo that still sound really solid and held up with what was in the listening room. So it struck me that the speakers were the place to invest some money. But then came the video. We thought about trying to do a projector and screen deal, but it seemed a lot for the room--the dealer was saying how we could get a 120" picture...the ceiling is 8' high...the room is small. He seemed very intent on this. But all I could think was how could I realistically take in the entire imaghe? I'm going to be sitting 10' back at most. So then we started looking at LCDs. We were, of course, blown away by the Elite the dealer was pushing. Gorgeous picture. Insane price. It was $7K or $8K for the 70". All I could think was there will be something that smokes it in a year or two for half the price and I would be kicking myself. So I kept looking and looking. And quite frankly, I have not settled on anything. I am leaning to the Sharp Aquos 80" LC-80LE844U since it seems to have a nice picture and decent blacks. And with a discount it is a lot cheaper for more TV than the Elite. Besides, if what I was told is true, Sharp makes Elite and there is a fair amount of component crossover at this level. But I am not locked into anything and would be open to suggestions.

I guess Blu-Ray plays a factor too. It seems to me--and maybe I am wrong on this--that most Blu-Ray players give just about the same image. I was just thinking of using my son's PS3 for the Blu-Ray, but if you think there is a better way to go, I am all ears.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

BAF, ParadigmDawg is 100% right - there is no need to match sub and speakers, in fact for HT uses, the only front speakers must be matched (brand AND series) - using surround speakers from different brands is actually very common.

SVS, HSU and Rythmic subs will all give much better value and quality at same price point and B&W subs...

My last TV lasted 6 years and I consider this ok, but most speakers should be fine without repairs for 25-30 years (if used within their limits) or much longer if kept in ideal conditions and/or might need re-foam later on..

ps3 is one of the best BR transports and there is not much benefit getting stand-alone BR player and if you do - keep it under tight budget - $100-150 should do it for nice unit from Panasonic.

You mentioned you live in rural and your local dealer would not load you speakers for in-house demo - Are you aware than many Internet direct companies will give you worry free 30 days at home trials?

Some of them:
Home Theater Systems and Speakers - Free Shipping - 30 Day Trial - Aperion Audio
Audiophile Loudspeakers and Subwoofers for Home Theater and Music - Ascend Acoustics, renowned speakers,subs,audio
Product Category Name
High Performance - Surround Sound Speakers - SVS
Speakers | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifiers, as we
EMP Tek Home Page

In addition anything for AH store will give you same 30 days, I'm willing to bet some of them will sound better then B&W 685

Re: VSX-50 - I think it's a solid mid range AVR - It is missing 7.1 pre-outs which I consider a big drawback. In addition the $600 is full blown MSRP and since this is last year model it should be priced considerably less - I'd consider it for $400 or less
VSX-50 - 7.1-Channel 3D Ready Elite A/V Receiver | Pioneer Electronics USA

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Thank you for what is an extremely helpful response.

So the sub doesn't have to be from the same group as the speakers? The dealer was talking about the need to voice-match the speakers and that the easiest way to do it was to do the whole thing in B&W.

What is the best way to compare receivers? Should I be hearing a sound difference from one to another? Or do they all basically sound the same and it is the codecs and outputs and power that is the point of difference.

The dealer was pushing a Pioneer Elite VSX-50 for $600. Then I found out the thing isn't even on the market anymore. Does that matter? Should I not have been put off by that? Given the speakers, what should one budget for the AVR?

Actually, what sort of discounts, if any, are available on products like these?

Video: Here's a long answer to a short question. Figured I would again tell you how I came to this so you can tell me if I have approached this poorly or not.

The way I looked at it, speakers can stay with you much longer than TVs and receivers. I have a pair of speakers my Dad built in the late 60's that use on my stereo that still sound really solid and held up with what was in the listening room. So it struck me that the speakers were the place to invest some money. But then came the video. We thought about trying to do a projector and screen deal, but it seemed a lot for the room--the dealer was saying how we could get a 120" picture...the ceiling is 8' high...the room is small. He seemed very intent on this. But all I could think was how could I realistically take in the entire imaghe? I'm going to be sitting 10' back at most. So then we started looking at LCDs. We were, of course, blown away by the Elite the dealer was pushing. Gorgeous picture. Insane price. It was $7K or $8K for the 70". All I could think was there will be something that smokes it in a year or two for half the price and I would be kicking myself. So I kept looking and looking. And quite frankly, I have not settled on anything. I am leaning to the Sharp Aquos 80" LC-80LE844U since it seems to have a nice picture and decent blacks. And with a discount it is a lot cheaper for more TV than the Elite. Besides, if what I was told is true, Sharp makes Elite and there is a fair amount of component crossover at this level. But I am not locked into anything and would be open to suggestions.

I guess Blu-Ray plays a factor too. It seems to me--and maybe I am wrong on this--that most Blu-Ray players give just about the same image. I was just thinking of using my son's PS3 for the Blu-Ray, but if you think there is a better way to go, I am all ears.

The sub doesn't come into the equation at all. Only timbre matching the mains and surrounds is important if you listen to a lot of multi-channel music.

Yes, they pretty much sound the same if they are calibrated the same. Usually 2/3 of your budget on the audio should be on the speaker side of things but a good AVR is likely to last years. It sounds like he is just trying to dump some old stock on that AVR. I would take the money saved on the sub and put it on a Denon 3313.
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-3313CI-Networking-Receiver-Capacity/dp/B00829USKS or get last years model(3312) for around $750

In a dedicated HT, you are doing yourself a disservice not going with a PJ. Get a good JVC PJ for 3.5k, use a fixed screen and go 100-120" and you will have a blast for less than the cost of a TV. The Sharp 80" is pretty sweet but in a dark room it won't touch a plasma if you decide to skip the PJ. (Except for maybe the Elite, which is a whole different animal) PM BoredAdmin, FirstReflection or BMXtrix for suggestions on PJs and screens.

PS3 is an awesome BD player and is what I use. If you already have one, stick with it.

As far as "deals and discounts" I'm not sure what normal is. I am a Sales Rep and use reverse selling when I purchase stuff and always seem to come out with a pretty good deal. I don't think getting 25-30% off is too far out the norm if you know what you are doing and take your time.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

BAF, ParadigmDawg is 100% right - there is no need to match sub and speakers, in fact for HT uses, the only front speakers must be matched (brand AND series) - using surround speakers from different brands is actually very common.

SVS, HSU and Rythmic subs will all give much better value and quality at same price point and B&W subs...

My last TV lasted 6 years and I consider this ok, but most speakers should be fine without repairs for 25-30 years (if used within their limits) or much longer if kept in ideal conditions and/or might need re-foam later on..

ps3 is one of the best BR transports and there is not much benefit getting stand-alone BR player and if you do - keep it under tight budget - $100-150 should do it for nice unit from Panasonic.

You mentioned you live in rural and your local dealer would not load you speakers for in-house demo - Are you aware than many Internet direct companies will give you worry free 30 days at home trials?

Some of them:
Home Theater Systems and Speakers - Free Shipping - 30 Day Trial - Aperion Audio
Audiophile Loudspeakers and Subwoofers for Home Theater and Music - Ascend Acoustics, renowned speakers,subs,audio
Product Category Name
High Performance - Surround Sound Speakers - SVS
Speakers | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifiers, as we
EMP Tek Home Page

In addition anything for AH store will give you same 30 days, I'm willing to bet some of them will sound better then B&W 685

Re: VSX-50 - I think it's a solid mid range AVR - It is missing 7.1 pre-outs which I consider a big drawback. In addition the $600 is full blown MSRP and since this is last year model it should be priced considerably less - I'd consider it for $400 or less
VSX-50 - 7.1-Channel 3D Ready Elite A/V Receiver | Pioneer Electronics USA

I'm not sure what the audition policy is with these but I love me some Ascends..
Ascend Acoustics - Quality loudspeakers Made Affordable Via Direct Sales

As a matter of fact, I wound pick the SIERRA-1 over the B&W 685 but he already likes the sound of the 685 and that's the most difficult piece so I am just leaving it alone.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm not sure what the audition policy is with these but I love me some Ascends..
Ascend Acoustics - Quality loudspeakers Made Affordable Via Direct Sales

As a matter of fact, I wound pick the SIERRA-1 over the B&W 685 but he already likes the sound of the 685 and that's the most difficult piece so I am just leaving it alone.

Ascend 30-Day Guarantee
They don't pay for return shipping, but offer full refund for 30 days

AFAIK only Aperion will pay for return shipping and their Verus line got high praises from AH Staff

 

[BMXTRIX]

We thought about trying to do a projector and screen deal, but it seemed a lot for the room--the dealer was saying how we could get a 120" picture...the ceiling is 8' high...the room is small. He seemed very intent on this. But all I could think was how could I realistically take in the entire imaghe? I'm going to be sitting 10' back at most.

If your intent is mostly to watch movies and use this room as a nice home theater for dark viewing, then going with a front projection setup is a great way to do things and will give you, by far, the most immersive experience.

The general guideline is you want about 10" of diagonal for about every foot of viewing distance. You mentioned the room is 15' deep, but then say that you are most likely viewing from about 10' away. That means about a 92" to 100" diagonal image is ideal for that viewing distance for 'center of the theater' feel. If you like sitting a bit more towards the front, then slightly larger is ideal.

The Sharp 80" display is very solid, but doesn't have the motion handling capabilities or black levels of a decent projector, and won't feel nearly as immersive. This is (clearly) your choice, but I would truly avoid LCD for a critical viewing area and would stick with plasma in a small room or front projection in a medium/larger room if possible.

Front projection requires the turn from 'we want to do a theater' to 'we are doing a PROPER theater' for best results. Many people have white walls and light carpet and furniture and throw some speakers up and a big TV and call it a theater. While I certainly agree it can make a nice surround setup, the difference is the atmosphere and the immersiveness of a theater.

I would recommend, the Carada Criterion screen at 100" diagonal with a 10' viewing distance, with their Brilliant White material.

I would put in the JVC RS45 projector (with 3D option if you want it).

The PS3 and HD cable (sat/fios/whater) for your viewing.

I like the Sharp displays just fine, but I am most likely to get that for my family room and move my 64" plasma to my future theater space along with a projection setup. The best room gets the best displays, and LCD is just not what I will put in.

If money were no object, the 85" Panasonic plasma is about the best darn looking display I have ever seen. That is truly a 'money is no object' display, as are their 103" and 152" plasmas.

 

[BAF]

Again, thank you for everyone's generous help. I really appreciate it.

Of course, the more I learn, the more questions I have.

My wife and I had dinner tonight with her audiophile former boss. He has a 9.1 music system with Nautilus and 800 series B&W level speakers. He's playing in another league.

He had some thoughts and I would like to add them to the mix for your reactions. They would raise the budget some, but I would be OK.

We told him we were thinking of the 685 fronts and the 686 rears. Where I had been concerned that this was too much speaker, he was of the impression it may not be immersive enough. He thought I would be better off with a pair of 683s on the floor up front with the 685s in the rear.

His thought was that if I were to stay in B&W for a sub that I should bump up to a PV1D. He agreed that other subs might be better and/or less expensive but he was not familiar with most and had never tried anything in the SVS line mentioned earlier.

As far as receivers go, he mentioned needing 125w-150w per channel. After dinner, he shot me these models to consider: Denon AVR-3313CI, a Yamaha RX-A1010, Pioneer SC-61, Onkyo TX-NR818.

What do you guys think? Do any of his suggestions have merit?

 

[BAF]

BMXTRIX...

I have to admit the projector sounds tasty. We are having the walls painted grey to reduce reflections and we are having blackouts installed in the existing windows to reduce light leakage.

For us, a projector would begin to require some significant reworking of the ceiling, including removing the ceiling fan--my wife is a huge believer in ceiling fans. She loves them. Besides, in the South they make sense. Would also have to lose the overhead fixture in there which would be regrettable. It is really nice.

As for the Sharp, I was of the impression that the highest level of the 80" units had a 240 refresh rate and that the Quattron technology improved the blacks dramatically. But I would like to hear more about other options like this projector.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Again, thank you for everyone's generous help. I really appreciate it.

Of course, the more I learn, the more questions I have.

My wife and I had dinner tonight with her audiophile former boss. He has a 9.1 music system with Nautilus and 800 series B&W level speakers. He's playing in another league.

He had some thoughts and I would like to add them to the mix for your reactions. They would raise the budget some, but I would be OK.

We told him we were thinking of the 685 fronts and the 686 rears. Where I had been concerned that this was too much speaker, he was of the impression it may not be immersive enough. He thought I would be better off with a pair of 683s on the floor up front with the 685s in the rear.

His thought was that if I were to stay in B&W for a sub that I should bump up to a PV1D. He agreed that other subs might be better and/or less expensive but he was not familiar with most and had never tried anything in the SVS line mentioned earlier.

As far as receivers go, he mentioned needing 125w-150w per channel. After dinner, he shot me these models to consider: Denon AVR-3313CI, a Yamaha RX-A1010, Pioneer SC-61, Onkyo TX-NR818.

What do you guys think? Do any of his suggestions have merit?

Like I said above, a good set of bookshelves and a capable sub would work in a room this size but if towers work for your budget and you have the room for them, it would likely blend into the sub a little better. Your call, get what you want for the long haul as speakers will be one of the items you can keep for close to a lifetime.

It would be just silly to go with a B&W sub but once again, your call.

I think that since I recommended the Denon AVR-3313CI above, then I would be comfortable recommending the Denon AVR-3313CI

 

[BAF]

Hi Paradigm Dog:

I totally agree on the B&W subwoofer after what you and others have said. I was simply mentioning what he said in the conversation, and he also said to check out other companies as you did. People have mentioned SVS, Hsu and Rhythmic. Any others to check out as I shop?

LOL on the Denon receiver. I missed that. I need to see where I can get it in order to check it out.

Again, thanks for your (and everyone's) wisdom on this. It is really helping get a better feel for how to go at this. Any other advice you or anyone else has is welcome and appreciated.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Hi Paradigm Dog:

I totally agree on the B&W subwoofer after what you and others have said. I was simply mentioning what he said in the conversation, and he also said to check out other companies as you did. People have mentioned SVS, Hsu and Rhythmic. Any others to check out as I shop?

I know that HSU, FunkyWaves, Seaton and a couple of others make good subs but I am just a huge fan of the way SVS does business and I have no doubt that "bang for you buck", they are difficult to beat.

I have owned top of the line subs from B&W, Paradigm, Velodyne, Klipsch(well, that one wasn't top of the line), JL Audio and one bad-boy DIY. Outside of the DIY the SVS is just superior especially if you factor in cost and CS.

Spend some time in the "sub forum" and read all about the different subs.