Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can the Phil 3s handle track 03 of the Inception OST? without bottoming out? That track makes my Mal-X move.

Man, Inception bottoms out my Orion for sure!

I would never try that again with any speaker in 2.0! Not even Salon2.

Inception is crazy bass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Or one pair of Phil 3's with the Scanspeak woof for 3k? I really wonder sometimes about the playback volumes you guys generate. Or want to generate. I introduced the Phil 3's at the Capital Audio Fest last year in the largest room available (something like 24' by 28', thick carpets, acoutical ceiling tile, heavy curtains.) I played those things at volumes I could never tolerate at home for some dudes who wanted to test their limits. The dudes threw in the towel before the Scans did. I hope we're not forgetting that accurate speakers are intended to reproduce music, not noise, and not the kind of dangerous and distorted din you get at rock concerts. The Phil 2's can produce higher dB's than you should expose yourself to, unless you're feeding them source material with lots of content below 32 Hz (which rules out rock). If you want to experience the full shudder of an organ with all stops open,or the full boom of a bass drum, without a sub, then the Scan is a better choice thanthe SB Acoustics in the Phil 2. Home theater is a different matter. Prehistoric reptiles on a rampage really need a sub--not one or two or three 8" woofers.

Anything above 90dB hurts my ears for sure.

But Walter is well-known for superhuman insane volume!

I heard the latest GTG w/ JTR, Seaton, SS was really loud, but I bet Walter would just fall asleep with that volume.

 

[cpp]

Anything above 90dB hurts my ears for sure.

But Walter is well-known for superhuman insane volume!

I heard the latest GTG w/ JTR, Seaton, SS was really loud, but I bet Walter would just fall asleep with that volume.

Agree on the 90db... Give me clean sound at normal levels and they can keep the over 90db volume. PS: playing loud music in my younger years killed my ears, so all you young pups go on and crank it up, loud really loud.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Agree on the 90db... Give me clean sound at normal levels and they can keep the over 90db volume. PS: playing loud music in my younger years killed my ears, so all you young pups go on and crank it up, loud really loud.

90db average or 90db peaks?

 

[Nuance AH]

Anything above 90dB hurts my ears for sure.

But Walter is well-known for superhuman insane volume!

I heard the latest GTG w/ JTR, Seaton, SS was really loud, but I bet Walter would just fall asleep with that volume.

Yup - peaks hit 95dB, though for very short periods of time. The average listening volume was probably 85ish. Terry's amplifier was mucked up, which didn't help the situation. Do any of these GTG's ever go off without a hitch?

Agree on the 90db... Give me clean sound at normal levels and they can keep the over 90db volume. PS: playing loud music in my younger years killed my ears, so all you young pups go on and crank it up, loud really loud.

Right on. I tend to listen at no louder than 85dB.

 

[walter duque]

Anything above 90dB hurts my ears for sure.

But Walter is well-known for superhuman insane volume!

I heard the latest GTG w/ JTR, Seaton, SS was really loud, but I bet Walter would just fall asleep with that volume.

I do like my sound loud, that's one of the reasons I have to stick to my speaker builder (JSE Infinite Slope was his old company) he's no slouch I think he knows what he is doing. These speakers can handle tremendous power without blowing and still sound good. Take the Phil3 with 2 good subs and I'll bet they sound awesome. At the moment I am listening to my rear towers with (1) 12" 1000 watt sub and I think they sound great and they are not even in the league of the Phil3's. The Phil3's 2 good subs in the $1500-$2000.--range sounds like an unbeatable combination to me. Should actually sound better then the Salons for 1/3 of the price. I'll find out when fuzz gets his, maybe I'll take a sub along just to check it out.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I tend to listen at no louder than 85dB.

Same here - 85dBA is my level.

 

[Gordonj]

Same here - 85dBA is my level.

Is that A weight or C weight or flat peak? Just curious....

Gordon

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is that A weight or C weight or flat peak? Just curious....

Gordon

A-weight Peak about 87dBA, but usually below 85dBA.

When I switched to C-weight, it was about 93dBC peak.

 

[Irvrobinson]

A-weight Peak about 87dBA, but usually below 85dBA.

When I switched to C-weight, it was about 93dBC peak.

What you hear won't sound remotely like "live" at those levels, unless we're discussing mild classical pieces dominated by strings.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What you hear won't sound remotely like "live" at those levels, unless we're discussing mild classical pieces dominated by strings.

What about live without amplification or "unplugged"?

 

[Irvrobinson]

What about live without amplification or "unplugged"?

It depends on the venue, of course. In a very large venue unamplified instruments, even very loud ones, can be relatively quiet. For example, a 9' grand piano in an auditorium. On the other hand, in venues that are much smaller, like most restaurants or bars, the sound levels for acoustic instruments can be quite high. Drums, horns, and pianos can produce surprising pressure levels. Trumpets, especially, can be very loud. I know a sax player who sometimes wears ear plugs because the instrument is so loud and the sound is aimed upward.

The loudest acoustic performance I've ever heard was an awesome big band in a very large, multi-story high school lobby. It was so loud we had to sit on some stairs 40 feet away so that we could listen comfortably.

The most abused live instrument is probably the upright bass, which is very quiet, and even in small venues I've noticed every bass player uses an amp these days.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It was so loud we had to sit on some stairs 40 feet away so that we could listen comfortably.

The question is, how loud was it from where you sit (40ft away) in order to listen comfortably?

The Phil3 can probably play 110dB sound. But we only care about the volume that we can listen comfortably.

Yes, "live" music has to be played very loud so that people sitting 40 ft away can hear with good volume.

But we are sitting 40 ft away, not 4 inches away.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The question is, how loud was it from where you sit (40ft away) in order to listen comfortably?

The Phil3 can probably play 110dB sound. But we only care about the volume that we can listen comfortably.

Yes, "live" music has to be played very loud so that people sitting 40 ft away can hear with good volume.

But we are sitting 40 ft away, not 4 inches away.

Well, I didn't bring a sound meter with me, but even at 40 feet I'd easily estimate the peaks at mid-90s. Easily. The trumpets were quite loud even at that distance. You *felt* them.

The reason music has to be relative loud to sound "live" is described by the Fletcher-Munson curves. Turn down the sound and you change the perceived frequency balance. I never said one has to listen at 110db, but if you don't let a drum kit generate near 100db peak when played with passion it isn't going to sound live. It's the same thing even with a solo violin. Some professional violinists, for example, get some hearing loss in the ear on the side that they hold the violin.

I don't mean to be as silly as this sounds, but it is an inconvenient truth that if you want reproduced music to sound live it needs to have loudness and scale similar to the original performance. With a violin, a piano, a cello, a guitar, a human voice, and I think even a drum kit, this is practical, but for orchestras, big bands, rock groups, and anything "big" we can make reproduction "impressive", but "live" takes loudness and scale. I'm not saying it's always advisable to even try to achieve live levels, but peaks limited to 92db mean there's only a very limited domain for live sound. Like I said, an inconvenient truth.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Well, I didn't bring a sound meter with me, but even at 40 feet I'd easily estimate the peaks at mid-90s. Easily. The trumpets were quite loud even at that distance. You *felt* them.

The reason music has to be relative loud to sound "live" is described by the Fletcher-Munson curves. Turn down the sound and you change the perceived frequency balance. I never said one has to listen at 110db, but if you don't let a drum kit generate near 100db peak when played with passion it isn't going to sound live. It's the same thing even with a solo violin. Some professional violinists, for example, get some hearing loss in the ear on the side that they hold the violin.

I don't mean to be as silly as this sounds, but it is an inconvenient truth that if you want reproduced music to sound live it needs to have loudness and scale similar to the original performance. With a violin, a piano, a cello, a guitar, a human voice, and I think even a drum kit, this is practical, but for orchestras, big bands, rock groups, and anything "big" we can make reproduction "impressive", but "live" takes loudness and scale. I'm not saying it's always advisable to even try to achieve live levels, but peaks limited to 92db mean there's only a very limited domain for live sound. Like I said, an inconvenient truth.

Now wait a minute. I've been playing violin (loudly) for 58 years. And I have many friends who play even more loudly and frequently than I do. No hearing loss, unless they're playing too close to the trumpets, trombones, or tubas. It just isn't that loud. Now a beer-hall band in a beer hall? Loud. Really loud. And you have to listen loud to recreate that experience (with a little help from the refrigerator). But most friends I know who are hi-fi nuts and haven't been to a live orchestra concert or opera, have the same reaction when I drag them to one. "Gee--it wasn't loud enough." Orchestra halls are huge. Living rooms--not so much. So I really can't buy on to this line of thinking. Obviously a loudspeaker has to be able to play loudly with low distortion. But most high quality speakers can do that. Basic design considerations such as proper driver integration, even off-axis response, and cabinet damping are what really counts.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Now wait a minute. I've been playing violin (loudly) for 58 years. And I have many friends who play even more loudly and frequently than I do. No hearing loss, unless they're playing too close to the trumpets, trombones, or tubas. It just isn't that loud. Now a beer-hall band in a beer hall? Loud. Really loud. And you have to listen loud to recreate that experience (with a little help from the refrigerator). But most friends I know who are hi-fi nuts and haven't been to a live orchestra concert or opera, have the same reaction when I drag them to one. "Gee--it wasn't loud enough." Orchestra halls are huge. Living rooms--not so much. So I really can't buy on to this line of thinking. Obviously a loudspeaker has to be able to play loudly with low distortion. But most high quality speakers can do that. Basic design considerations such as proper driver integration, even off-axis response, and cabinet damping are what really counts.

You're making several points here:

1. The issue of hearing loss in violinists has been long discussed and you can just Google it for yourself. I played the violin as a child, and it seemed loud back them, but I sucked as a violinist, so perhaps it just seemed louder because it was so terrible.

2. I agree that orchestras in large auditoriums are not all that loud on average, perhaps high-70s to low-80s db, with louder peaks. I've posted that comment before, and so have others. (PENG, I think?) We also agree that bands, even acoustic ones, in smaller venues can be quite loud.

3. We also agree that basic speaker design considerations are more important than just being loud, which is your expertise and not mine.

Where we might disagree is that I think most speakers don't play loudly *and* effortlessly, IMO. I'm inferring that you think most high quality speakers can do that. I've heard a lot of speakers that are great at lower levels but get rather tiresome when they get loud.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree that orchestras in large auditoriums are not all that loud on average, perhaps high-70s to low-80s db, with louder peaks. I've posted that comment before, and so have others. (PENG, I think?) We also agree that bands, even acoustic ones, in smaller venues can be quite loud.

So "live" doesn't have to be above 90dB SPL.

Some live music are above 90dB, and some are below 90dB.

The only kind of live music I've been apart of is below 90dB (from where I sat).

And the only kind of live music I care for is below 90dB.

 

[Nuance AH]

Where we might disagree is that I think most speakers don't play loudly *and* effortlessly, IMO. I'm inferring that you think most high quality speakers can do that. I've heard a lot of speakers that are great at lower levels but get rather tiresome when they get loud.

I think you need to define what you feel "loudly" is. Even according to Dr. Floyd Toole most conventional cone-dome speakers can hit reference levels for short periods of time in small and medium sized rooms (with ample power). It's only when the room is "very large" and the listener calls for "high sound levels much of the time" when he recommends horns, also know as ultra high efficiency designs. If most conventional style speakers couldn't play effortlessly at realistic music volumes in the average consumer's home without being high efficiency, why is the average sensitivity of such speakers in the 88dB range?

 

[Irvrobinson]

So "live" doesn't have to be above 90dB SPL.

Some live music are above 90dB, and some are below 90dB.

The only kind of live music I've been apart of is below 90dB (from where I sat).

And the only kind of live music I care for is below 90dB.

Yes, sometimes live music in very large venues is a low-80s / 90db peak sort of experience. If that's what you like, cool.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If most conventional style speakers couldn't play effortlessly at realistic music volumes in the average consumer's home without being high efficiency, why is the average sensitivity of such speakers in the 88dB range?

I'm not so sure that the lack of effortlessness at realistic listening levels in large rooms is a sensitivity issue. Not having specific expertise in this field, I'm not sure what the cause is. I'm just making a subjective observation.