To bi amp or not to amp

D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
You make grandiose assumptions.
You know, a rigorous thinker wouldn't just hide behind the conclusory claim that someone else "made assumptions." Instead, such a person would spell out those assumptions and point out why they're invalid. Anything less is, well, less.

Though you have failed to demonstrate the intellectual capacity required to argue rigorously through your failure to do so and your expressed preference for personal attacks over substantive argument, others may benefit from a more thorough airing of my assumption.

The only assumption underlying my previous post is that the factory passive crossover was not a textbook filter, but rather incorporated some EQ as well. Perhaps a notch filter to tame a woofer's out-of-band breakup peak, or some baffle step compensation, etc.

For those of us who use competently-designed loudspeakers, that assumption is not so grandiose at all, but simple reality.

For people inordinately fond of underengineered crap, my assumption may not be that grandiose, but it is unwarranted.

If you choose your life-partner with the same rigiorous criteria you seem to apply to everyone else's audio gear, they probably only exist in print or on the internet, and it's probably a very lonely existance.
First, why are you not mensch enough to write about ideas rather than making everything an ad hominem attack?

Second, what's this "other people's audio systems" garbage? My standards are highest for my own system, others can do whatever the hell they want. I don't have to listen to their systems.

Third...as a matter of fact, I did apply rather rigorous criteria to selecting my life partner. Or at least outward appearance would make it seem so: my fiancee is a warm, loving, funny, beautiful, driven, and talented young woman from a wonderful and accomplished family. She is also a rising star in her field, neurology, with teens of pubs in peer-reviewed medical journals in her short career. So, not lonely at all. :)

However if you know what you are doing, active crossovers are easily modified to get the crossover points and slopes you desire. You have to understand how to modify the loop gains of opamps, and that is not rocket science.
It's more than that, though. One also needs some means to sculpt the response, and perhaps apply delays as well. Furthermore, unless one is using very wide-bandwidth drivers and crossing very conservatively, the electrical slope is going to be much different from the acoustical slope of a crossover.

Biamping has huge advantages, especially in the lower crossover points.
I agree that any crossover in the modal region or below should be active, if for no other reason than the parts costs for passives in the 80-160Hz region is so high. Also, in the modal region drivers are typically working in their passbands or with smooth rolloffs, so electrical and acoustical slopes are more similar.

And it should also be noted that I'm going to soon experiment with taking my mains fully active. miniDSP just released their 8x8-in-a-Box unit. Pending resolution of a question I asked them, I will order either their whole boxed unit, or their board and new enclosure. Before the 8x8-in-a-box, there wasn't a single reasonably-priced box that could do at least 3-in/7-out (needed for LCR 2-way mains and a mono subwoofer channel that's a summed mix of the LCR channels) with matrix routing and the parametric EQ necessary to make a good-enough-for-me crossover. Previous suitable products, such as Ashly's NE line, were too expensive for me.

This will change. Now we have digital microphones, and the AES 42 standards to keep cabling optical, the push to keep everything digital from microphone to the final drivers will be unstoppable. So I think we will see, total digital pathways, to loudspeakers with digital DSP crossovers, and conversion to analog right at the class D amps for each pass band.
***
This will come to homes near you much sooner than you think.
I hope you're right, but I doubt it. Don't doubt what a reactionary and anti-fidelity force the so-called high end can be.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
You still don't get it.

Helping someone with their problem is fine but overloading them with extraneous BS that isn't even marginally related to the solution to problem at hand just turns 'em off and makes us look like smarmy audiosnobs.

By mentioning the two types of bi-amping in my first post was simply to help illustrate the ignorance, or greed, of the salesperson he was dealing with.

So, don't take it to heart.

[edit] This was for Johnny. somehow, the posting times got mangled. PM to follow.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
*** All the poor guy wants to know is how to solve his dynamics problem and frankly, it doesn't seem that anyone except me has tried to address that issue lately. ...and that includes you.
Your reading comprehension is, again, suspect.

Here's what the OP posted

"heres my question. some salesboy told me that i will hear more dynamics when listening stereo at lower volume when you have a more powerful amp, so do you think adding rotel 1552 for bi-amp will increase music dynamics at lower volumes?"

The plain meaning of that sentence is not

"he has a problem,"

but rather,

"a salesperson has put it in his head that he might have a 'problem,' and offered to sell a widget from his inventory to 'fix' the 'problem'"

Any other reading is simply incorrect.

Furthermore, the narrowest possible reading of the OP's subject choice, "To bi amp or not to amp," clearly allows for a discussion of the merits of various approaches of biamping. Especially when somebody brings up various approaches in a misleading way that invites correction.
 
C

Chipbyrd

Audioholic Intern
Similar question

I am kind of a newb as well. I have the Cambridge Audio 840w and 840e.* I am really loving them.* While pursuing them, there was a guy selling a 840w*that I was interested in but ended up selling to*someone who made a*better offer.* Well... that deal fell through and he got in touch with me and I have an opportunity to get it*at an even better price.* The deal is too good to pass up so it looks like I will have two 840w's.* Here's my first question:

I can run the cambridge 840w's as as a*mono. That will be 500 watts per side.

Or...

I can use the two amps to bi-amp.

Which would be better?* Is there a definite answer? It is hard to pass up a $500 Cambridge Audio 840w. But can it help my system and how much?

And here's another question:*

If you have a stereo power amp that allows you to bridge it to a mono, do you lose some of the quality versus an*amp that is*manufactured as a mono?*

So, if company "A" makes a*250w stereo amp that is bridgeable to 500w, and they make a 500w mono, is there a difference in quality?

Thanks again for all your help.

Chip
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah, yeah.. Whatever...

Your reading comprehension is, again, suspect.

Here's what the OP posted

"heres my question. some salesboy told me that i will hear more dynamics when listening stereo at lower volume when you have a more powerful amp, so do you think adding rotel 1552 for bi-amp will increase music dynamics at lower volumes?"

The plain meaning of that sentence is not

"he has a problem,"

but rather,

"a salesperson has put it in his head that he might have a 'problem,' and offered to sell a widget from his inventory to 'fix' the 'problem'"

Any other reading is simply incorrect.

Furthermore, the narrowest possible reading of the OP's subject choice, "To bi amp or not to amp," clearly allows for a discussion of the merits of various approaches of biamping. Especially when somebody brings up various approaches in a misleading way that invites correction.
So, now you're an English instructor? Will the wonders never cease. :rolleyes:

Actually, the answer to the bolded question , specifically the underlined part, is simply "yes" or "no". It was decided that "no" was the appropiate answer before you chimed in.
 
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D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
I am kind of a newb as well. I have the Cambridge Audio 840w and 840e.* I am really loving them.* While pursuing them, there was a guy selling a 840w*that I was interested in but ended up selling to*someone who made a*better offer.* Well... that deal fell through and he got in touch with me and I have an opportunity to get it*at an even better price.* The deal is too good to pass up so it looks like I will have two 840w's.* Here's my first question:

I can run the cambridge 840w's as as a*mono. That will be 500 watts per side.

Or...

I can use the two amps to bi-amp.

Which would be better?* Is there a definite answer?
Bridged would be better, but unless your room is huge and your speakers have enough cone area and heat-sinking to turn the extra power into anything but thermal compression, the end result will likely be de minimis.

I wouldn't waste the $500, unless you just want to look at more audio gear in your living room.

If you have a stereo power amp that allows you to bridge it to a mono, do you lose some of the quality versus an*amp that is*manufactured as a mono?*
It depends. Sometimes, what you lose is the ability to drive lower-z loads. The amp can swing out much more voltage bridged, but the current limits remain fixed.

However, sometimes a "monobloc" amp is in fact an internally-bridged stereo amp with one fewer input.
 
C

Chipbyrd

Audioholic Intern
Thanks DS-21

One of the struggles for a newb is the lack of consensus on these things. Thanks for the help. I probably will pick up the 840w. At $500.00, if it doesn't make any difference I can easily recoup.

Again, as a newb and one who is ignorant of electronics, it just seems like adding another amp would make a big difference. But I guess that isn't the case.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I will say the A7s and the A9s need a lot of power to get the most out of them, so in that respect the sales boy isn't totally incorrect - boss can you clarify please? regarding budget im okay with 1552 or 1582 if its better

using onkyo 709 i listen round -25 to -20db, if i add 1582 bi-amp or as pre outs only. whats the difference? will it just be that i can play louder? hence listen round -15 to -10? thanks!;)
I'm not entirely sure what I mean, and by that I mean I have a hard time describing what I heard ;) It was awhile ago that I listened to the A9's, but from what I remember and from the research I did many people who own the A9s/A7s have said that they sound weak, and not as full unless they're giving sufficient power. Now when I did my in store listening I played them hooked up to a receiver (forget which one) that pushed about 100 wpc. I listened to them a little with some music and then a movie. Then I was able to hook them up to an external amp that was rated at 300 wpc and I have to say, that to me they sounded night and day. I honestly don't think it was "they're just louder" kind of a thing. I think they really did improve with more juice, but those are just my subjective listening experiences. I believe someone said that it may have something to do with the woofers and them needing a lot of power to get the most out of them. Whether theres any truth to that I don't know, I just know that to me they sounded better with more power. Hope that clears things up a bit. :D
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
lot of recordings are, it ain't coming back no matter what you do, Betcha salesguy didn't mention that, did he?
yah u're right but i think my 80% of my collections are not hehe
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
Now, I must ask you: How do you know you're running out of power
here's what i experienced, using same level of volume

stereo using a7
mono using center a6 + sub

when i switch to mono volume increases and vocal clarity increases
when i switch back to stereo volume and clarity decreases but gained more bass

what do you think boss?

thanks and have a good day!:)
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
I'm not entirely sure what I mean, and by that I mean I have a hard time describing what I heard ;) It was awhile ago that I listened to the A9's, but from what I remember and from the research I did many people who own the A9s/A7s have said that they sound weak, and not as full unless they're giving sufficient power. Now when I did my in store listening I played them hooked up to a receiver (forget which one) that pushed about 100 wpc. I listened to them a little with some music and then a movie. Then I was able to hook them up to an external amp that was rated at 300 wpc and I have to say, that to me they sounded night and day. I honestly don't think it was "they're just louder" kind of a thing. I think they really did improve with more juice, but those are just my subjective listening experiences. I believe someone said that it may have something to do with the woofers and them needing a lot of power to get the most out of them. Whether theres any truth to that I don't know, I just know that to me they sounded better with more power. Hope that clears things up a bit. :D
hey thanks! this one will help me decide;)
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
No problem, hope that helped and good luck. Trust me, I wouldn't tell you, more power (and more $$$) is worth it unless it's what I would have done. If I had ended up buying either of those I would have had an external amp, but that's just me.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not entirely sure what I mean, and by that I mean I have a hard time describing what I heard ;) It was awhile ago that I listened to the A9's, but from what I remember and from the research I did many people who own the A9s/A7s have said that they sound weak, and not as full unless they're giving sufficient power. Now when I did my in store listening I played them hooked up to a receiver (forget which one) that pushed about 100 wpc. I listened to them a little with some music and then a movie. Then I was able to hook them up to an external amp that was rated at 300 wpc and I have to say, that to me they sounded night and day. I honestly don't think it was "they're just louder" kind of a thing. I think they really did improve with more juice, but those are just my subjective listening experiences. I believe someone said that it may have something to do with the woofers and them needing a lot of power to get the most out of them. Whether theres any truth to that I don't know, I just know that to me they sounded better with more power. Hope that clears things up a bit. :D
You are so right. If I am correct that AVR puts out 110 watts and that is not what I would call power. Entry level is at least 200 watts (and that is minimum) to expect any kind of good sound.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
here's what i experienced, using same level of volume

stereo using a7
mono using center a6 + sub

when i switch to mono volume increases and vocal clarity increases
when i switch back to stereo volume and clarity decreases but gained more bass

what do you think boss?

thanks and have a good day!:)
Frankly, I'm not sure whatto make of this. It seems like an apples to oranges comparison.

How did you make that stereo/mono switch?

I think the sub being added and removed muddied the water. If anything, adding a sub relieves the amp from having to produce power.

And, going from stereo to mono with the same source/software does strange things with phasing

But, more power coitenly can't hoit (nyuk nyuk nyuk). ...enjoy.
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
Frankly, I'm not sure whatto make of this. It seems like an apples to oranges comparison.

How did you make that stereo/mono switch?

I think the sub being added and removed muddied the water. If anything, adding a sub relieves the amp from having to produce power.

And, going from stereo to mono with the same source/software does strange things with phasing

But, more power coitenly can't hoit (nyuk nyuk nyuk). ...enjoy.
so how do i know if it lacks power?
thanks:cool:
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
so how do i know if it lacks power?
thanks:cool:
It's hard to say. That's why I was asking why you were so sure it was. With a sub doing the heavy lifting and if one listens at normal listening levels, it's not as easy to determine as one would think.

It's more of an issue when not using a sub and listening at higher levels since bass puts the biggest demands on the amp.

But, I wouldn't worry about it. With that new amp I don't think you'll have any problems with your front mains.
 

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