To bi amp or not to amp

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chrstr

Audioholic Intern
Hi Guys, I have a quick question and its a nood question need your advice before i purchase.:D

I currently have rti A7s powered by onkyo 709.
I'm comfortably listen around -25 to -20db
heres my question. some salesboy told me that i will hear more dynamics when listening stereo at lower volume when you have a more powerful amp, so do you think adding rotel 1552 for bi-amp will increase music dynamics at lower volumes?

Thank you and mwah!
 
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T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
I currently have rti A7s powered by onkyo 709.
I'm comfortably listen around -25 to -20db
heres my question. some salesboy told me that i will hear more dynamics when listening stereo at lower volume when you have a more powerful amp, so do you think adding rotel 1552 for bi-amp will increase music dynamics at lower volumes?
No, it won't. He's just trying to sell you some extra gear. Plus, I don't think this would work equipment wise since you'd have to use preouts to hook up the amp, but then you'd still only be connecting one set of cables. In other words, I don't think you can hook it up so the Onkyo amp goes to the tweeter and the Rotel goes to the woofers.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Above poster is correct. I'd just like to augment his post a bit.

First off, when one is attampting passive* biamping, which is what that salesperson suggested, it's best if both amps are of the same make/model. this assures the gain between all four amps is the same. Without that, imbalances are very, very likely.

The results of passive biamping, when done correctly, are ambigious at best.

As such, I'd be very. very wary of what this "expert" suggests in the future. At best, he's ignorant of his field or, at worst, he does know better and is simply trying to make a buck off of you. Either way, you lose.

*"Passive", as opposed to "Active" bi-amping, which is where an elecronic crossover is inserted between the preamp and power amps to assure proper balance. Active bi-amping (aa well as tri and quad amping) is a proven technique and are routinely used in pro sound.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Mark is right about the bi-amping. I will say the A7s and the A9s need a lot of power to get the most out of them, so in that respect the sales boy isn't totally incorrect. Most people who own them say that they need a minimum of 200 wpc to have them sound good, and 300 is better. I'd say to try and buy an amp that you can return that has that much power try it out in home and if you don't hear a difference, return it.

The cheapest way to get there would probably be pro amp, but they're noisy with their fans and all.

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS2500-Amplifier-integrated-Crossover/dp/B003HZV2OI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1336400819&sr=8-4

Not sure how much you were looking to spend, but this would work and you could probably disconnect the fans and reconnect them to a cheap fan controller so that they're not on all the time.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
No. I don't think adding more amps and bi-amping will do anything for you either.
 
S

Sounds Good

Senior Audioholic
I recently ran my 876 in BTL mode. It supposedly sends more power to the FL and FR by using the rear surrounds from the 7.x setup...

I didnt notice a difference, and I lost the Zone 2 functionality so I switched it back to "normal" mode...
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... some salesboy told me that i will hear more dynamics when listening stereo at lower volume when you have a more powerful amp, ...

Thank you and mwah!
Salesboy has no clue. To use all the dynamics on a recording, you have to listen at reference levels, loud. As soon as you turn down the volume the low levels are turned into the noise floor and the dynamics suffers as by definition it is the difference between the lowest level and highest peak. The more you turn down the volume the lower the dynamics are.
 
D

DS-21

Full Audioholic
*"Passive", as opposed to "Active" bi-amping, which is where an elecronic crossover is inserted between the preamp and power amps to assure proper balance. Active bi-amping (aa well as tri and quad amping) is a proven technique and are routinely used in pro sound.
Active biamping is also usually a big mistake. Unlike mere "buy-amping" (using multiple amps on a speaker all feeding through its passive crossover), active biamping can actually be sonically deleterious, rather than just a silly waste of money and energy.

The only exception to the to that rule is when the following two conditions are met:
(1) the crossover unit has significant EQ capabilities (many do, e.g. miniDSP, Behringer DCX2496, Ashly Protea, etc.; older analog units generally are useless, unless used with a high-quality parametric EQ in a separate box) AND
(2) the user can take high-resolution polar measurements to make proper use of the onboard EQ.
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
Mark is right about the bi-amping. I will say the A7s and the A9s need a lot of power to get the most out of them, so in that respect the sales boy isn't totally incorrect. Most people who own them say that they need a minimum of 200 wpc to have them sound good, and 300 is better. I'd say to try and buy an amp that you can return that has that much power try it out in home and if you don't hear a difference, return it.

The cheapest way to get there would probably be pro amp, but they're noisy with their fans and all.

Amazon.com: Crown XLS2500 Power Amplifier with integrated PureBand Crossover System and PeakX Limiters: Musical Instruments

Not sure how much you were looking to spend, but this would work and you could probably disconnect the fans and reconnect them to a cheap fan controller so that they're not on all the time.
I will say the A7s and the A9s need a lot of power to get the most out of them, so in that respect the sales boy isn't totally incorrect - boss can you clarify please? regarding budget im okay with 1552 or 1582 if its better

using onkyo 709 i listen round -25 to -20db, if i add 1582 bi-amp or as pre outs only. whats the difference? will it just be that i can play louder? hence listen round -15 to -10? thanks!;)
 
C

chrstr

Audioholic Intern
Guys thank you all for inputs.

sorry for my ignorance, i want to simplify my question.

I dont like playing music very very load
My volume is around -25 to -20db using 709

I want to:
have better dynamics playing around -25 to -20db & better if;
retain dynamics even at lower level of volume, so salesboy recommends blah blah
- Can i achieve this by adding rotel 1582 / cambridge 840W (both 200w/c) as pre outs NOT bi-amp (YES or NO?)

again thank you and more power mwah!
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Active biamping is also usually a big mistake. Unlike mere "buy-amping" (using multiple amps on a speaker all feeding through its passive crossover), active biamping can actually be sonically deleterious, rather than just a silly waste of money and energy.

The only exception to the to that rule is when the following two conditions are met:
(1) the crossover unit has significant EQ capabilities (many do, e.g. miniDSP, Behringer DCX2496, Ashly Protea, etc.; older analog units generally are useless, unless used with a high-quality parametric EQ in a separate box) AND
(2) the user can take high-resolution polar measurements to make proper use of the onboard EQ.
You make grandiose assumptions. We've been successully quad-amping in the pro field for years now with great success.

And, you automatically assume that everyone else holds their personal standards to what you claim to hold for yourself. Just beause someone has a system that suits them is no skin off your teeth. This hobby is supposed to be to please oneself, not impress others, or at least that's how most of us see it.

If you choose your life-partner with the same rigiorous criteria you seem to apply to everyone else's audio gear, they probably only exist in print or on the internet, and it's probably a very lonely existance.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Simple answer.

Guys thank you all for inputs.

sorry for my ignorance, i want to simplify my question.

I dont like playing music very very load
My volume is around -25 to -20db using 709

I want to:
have better dynamics playing around -25 to -20db & better if;
retain dynamics even at lower level of volume, so salesboy recommends blah blah
- Can i achieve this by adding rotel 1582 / cambridge 840W (both 200w/c) as pre outs NOT bi-amp (YES or NO?)

again thank you and more power mwah!
If you're running out of power on peaks, then additional power might help.

But, keep in mind that to obtain a barely audible 3 decibel increase in peak headroom you need twice the power you're currently running. For an apparent doubling of that level, you need ten times the power.

Keep in mind that more power won't change your average listening levels at all.

It'll just cover those occasional peaks if you're running out of power with what you currently have. Your average listening level most likely calls for no more than 1 to 1.5 watts.

Of course, if you up your average listening level, your power demands go up exponentially.

Now, I must ask you: How do you know you're running out of power.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of what you refer to as "dynamics" is controlled by the recording engineers. If it's intentionally compressed out for a more constant level, and a lot of recordings are, it ain't coming back no matter what you do, Betcha salesguy didn't mention that, did he?
 
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jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I think I have to side with DS-21. If you're going to be removing the crossover from a loudspeaker and replacing it with something you designed, you need to be able to perform measurements to get the response to work out.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Active biamping is also usually a big mistake. Unlike mere "buy-amping" (using multiple amps on a speaker all feeding through its passive crossover), active biamping can actually be sonically deleterious, rather than just a silly waste of money and energy.

The only exception to the to that rule is when the following two conditions are met:
(1) the crossover unit has significant EQ capabilities (many do, e.g. miniDSP, Behringer DCX2496, Ashly Protea, etc.; older analog units generally are useless, unless used with a high-quality parametric EQ in a separate box) AND
(2) the user can take high-resolution polar measurements to make proper use of the onboard EQ.
I agree, that using an off the shelf crossover is not better than choosing an off the shelf passive one, and will be as disastrous.

However if you know what you are doing, active crossovers are easily modified to get the crossover points and slopes you desire. You have to understand how to modify the loop gains of opamps, and that is not rocket science.

Biamping has huge advantages, especially in the lower crossover points.

My system could never be what it is without active crossovers at selected points in the system.

In three way systems in particular, the passive crossover is a huge roadblock to optimal performance.

This will change. Now we have digital microphones, and the AES 42 standards to keep cabling optical, the push to keep everything digital from microphone to the final drivers will be unstoppable. So I think we will see, total digital pathways, to loudspeakers with digital DSP crossovers, and conversion to analog right at the class D amps for each pass band.

The car engineers know it, and there are already there. That is the way my car audio works, and the sound is amazing.

This will come to homes near you much sooner than you think.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
I think I have to side with DS-21. If you're going to be removing the crossover from a loudspeaker and replacing it with something you designed, you need to be able to perform measurements to get the response to work out.
I don't see where either of us suggested ripping out crossovers and buying the cheapest stuff available and just throwing it together. I do see where I provided a cliff's notes summary of the difference between passive and active biamping, nothing more.

I did such in the spirit of helping someone learn the basics of what's involved and perhaps to give them a bit of an incentive to move ahead and learn more. Never was it intended to be a full tutorial. I'm not here to stroke my own ego.

But, to come along and make it seem an impossible task for someone to attempt, thereby keeping "Audiophilia" in the relam of the elite, seems to go against the helpful, nurturing spirit of this forum.

(In hindsight, maybe an active crossover with adjustments just might be a good way to experiment and learn a few things about what works and what doesn't ...hmmm)

After all, I see this as an inclusive hobby forum, not an exclusive one meant only for the privliged, all knowing*, few where the rest can press their noses against the glass and look longingly inside.

*sarcasm
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
No one said anything about cheap stuff or throwing anything together. We said that active biamping needs to be done carefully and you need to have the capability to measure speaker response. That's not "an impossible task."

It's like loudspeaker design. It's not "impossible" but no one is suggesting buying up random components and throwing them together. You need to be able to measure the speaker in order to make the proper changes to the design to get a quality product. It's not impossible, but there are certain capabilities you need to do it right.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
No one said anything about cheap stuff or throwing anything together. We said that active biamping needs to be done carefully and you need to have the capability to measure speaker response. That's not "an impossible task."

It's like loudspeaker design. It's not "impossible" but no one is suggesting buying up random components and throwing them together. You need to be able to measure the speaker in order to make the proper changes to the design to get a quality product. It's not impossible, but there are certain capabilities you need to do it right.
And, your point is?

This is not a "how to" thread on biamping. Somehow, it got hijacked into a how to thread .

It started out asking if it would solve his problem and it was quickly determnd that it would not. All the poor guy wants to know is how to solve his dynamics problem and frankly, it doesn't seem that anyone except me has tried to address that issue lately. ...and that includes you.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
And, your point is?

This is not a "how to" thread on biamping. Somehow, it got hijacked into a how to thread .

It started out asking if it would solve his problem and it was quickly determnd that it would not. All the poor guy wants to know is how to solve his dynamics problem and frankly, it doesn't seem that anyone except me has tried to address that issue lately. ...and that includes you.
My point is that DS-21 outlined two correct caveats before thinking about active biamping. You - wrongly, in my opinion, blasted him for it. I agreed with and supported his original claim. That's it.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
My point is that DS-21 outlined two correct caveats before thinking about active biamping. You - wrongly, in my opinion, blasted him for it. I agreed with and supported his original claim. That's it.
They were not needed for the discussion. It was showboating to boost ones ego, much like you're doing here.

Now, you wanna help the OP with his problem?
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
They were not needed for the discussion. It was showboating to boost ones ego, much like you're doing here.

Now, you wanna help the OP with his problem?
Wow, this is getting pretty personal and ridiculous. I'm the one stroking my ego when you were the one blasting DS-21 and talking about what "we do in the pro field"?

DS-21 was right. End of story. You were wrong to blast his opinion, you were wrong to attack him personally by insulting him, and you were wrong to attack me personally by accusing me of "showboating to boost my ego."

I won't post in this thread anymore. You can have your fun. This is obscene and uncalled for.
 

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