Please help me, I'm overwhelmed

[runswithscisors]

Let me start off by saying HI!!! I've been lurking for some time now and decided to finally register and post. I was really into audio gear in the '90s while in middle and high school, but after building my stereo system, just enjoyed it and got out of the loop. Now, its time to get back in.

I purchased a 55" Samsung 7000 LCD TV, and it came with a "free" 3D bluray player. It replaced an eight year old 30" Sanyo tube HDTV.

Now, I need to upgrade the rest of the system. I currently have a Onkyo HTIB, with tiny satellite speakers all around and a terrible excuse for a sub. At the time it was what I could afford, and it fit my first apartment. Times have changed.

All my speakers are wall mounted with wiring run in the wall, and about 70" up.

What I want to do is replace surround speakers with bookshelf speakers. Replace current front speakers with bookshelf speakers, but wall mount them so they fire straight out and not aimed down towards the listening area and run them as front highs. Run floor standing speakers for FR and FL. Mount the center channel on a shelf above the TV, where the wiring is coming out of the wall. And finally, replace that sub.

The room is 20' w x 10' deep x 8' with a 16' x 8' "dish" in the ceiling, where it is 9' high. It opens into a narrow hallway on the end opposite the HT area, and the "front" wall has a 5' wide opening into the 10' by 10' dining room, which is in turn open to the 10' x 7' kitchen. It has an open space sunk in about 32" and 10' long along the ''front'' wall where the entertainment system lives, which runs the length of the half of the room that is set up as the home theater, giving a HT area of about 12.5' deep x 10' wide. This is a small issue for sub placement, as I can not fit the TV stand, the floor speakers, and a good sized sub in this sunk in area, so it looks like I'll have to put in some attic time and run a sub cable in the wall after I determine its new home. I would like to post a drawing of the room layout to help, but haven't figured that out yet.

I also want a decent receiver, and am horribly overloaded with info on receivers, especially with some info in current threads. I also want to upgrade the BR player to an Oppo or Pioneer Elite, and integrate some vintage equipment, like my Marantz CD changer, and VCR.

So, here is what I have done so far:

Auditioned some speakers, Polk RTi A7s, B and W 683s, Definitive Techology BP10Bs, Martin Logan Motion 12s and my current choice, Klipsch Reference RF 82-II towers, RB 41-II bookshelves, CS 62-II center.

Auditioned B and W, Sunfire, Definitive Technology, Polk, Martin Logan, and Klipsch Subs. I felt the Klipsch SW 115 was OK at best, but feel ID is the way to go with the sub. Based on some current threads, the HSU VTF-3 MK4 sounds like a possibility.

Auditioned some receivers, I wasn't able to play around with too many mid-higher end level receivers, but determined that based on some lower end models, I don't care for the sound of Yamaha, or Sony, and that Onkyo was ok, while I felt Pioneer was a step up as was Marantz. This is based on sound, not features. I want good sound and solid digital decoding, I couldn't care less about internet on a receiver.

So, please help me. I do not know where to start. Any must audition speakers based on what I've tried and chosen? Any receiver options in the $500 range (I'm willing to look at refurbished units) Any input on the sub? I really want the system to come together as a whole.

Also, where should I start? I'm assuming receiver first, then speakers (I'll upgrade all speakers at one time), then the sub, and finally the BR player.

I appreciate any and all help that you could give me.

 

[fuzz092888]

Well first things first, I don't think you mentioned a budget, and keep in mind the budget for speakers to everything else should probably be something like 80% speakers 20% everything else, especially since you plan on buying all your speakers at once.

Depending on your budget it may be much more helpful to space out some of these purchases.

Receivers are a mixed bag, it really depends on what you want to get out of them.

IMHO Marantz receivers are excellent, and even though they may skimp on a few features here and I think that they have some of the best build quality of the commercially available receivers.

Denon is another solid brand, Denon and Marantz are both owned by the same company, D&M holdings. They share some of the same hardware and software, but they are still unique brands.

Onkyo packs as many features as possible into their receivers and offers excellent bang for your buck, although sometimes at the risk of lesser build quality. They also tend to run a bit hotter than either of the other two brands mentioned, but the better higher end the model you get the less chance you'll have of getting a bad one (hopefully)

Pioneer makes pretty good stuff. To me they make the least user friendly UI of the bunch and it really depends on how tech savvy you are to get the most out of them.

Yamaha, H&K, NAD, I have no experience with but there are enough reviews out there about them to get a good feel.

I would say, and I feel many would agree with me that ID could be the best way to go for both speakers and subs.

You also will probably need more than one sub FWIW.

So again, hit us up with a budget and the speaker recommendations will come rolling in

I'll also say that I have a Marantz SR5006 and have an Onkyo TX NR 3009 on it's way so I can provide information about the Marantz (and reasonably guess how your experience would be with a 6006 or 7005) and I'll be able to give you feedback about the onkyo in about a week should you want to wait that long. But there are plenty of onkyo owners who can and probably will chime in before that.

 

[Grador]

Welcome to the forum! From your post it seems you are far less confused than you're letting on. You've taken all the appropriate first steps and your design ideas sound to be pretty spot on. Fuzz pretty much covered everything I would like to say though I would add that though the Oppo bluray players are well liked here for their feature set and amazing analog outs I would put that on the backburner first [or possibly right after front height speakers] if there is anything of a budget crunch. Over HDMI a lesser player will treat you just as good for a bit less money. I cannot, however, argue that they aren't very nice looking pieces of equipment.

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree, the oppos are pretty awesome, but are definitely one of the first things that you should hold off on.

Grador is right, you seem like you know a lot more and have done a lot more than you give yourself credit for. You're headed in the right direction going out and auditioning speakers.

One of the best things you can do for yourself, before any recommendations is continue going out and listening to more brands

kef
totem
paradigm

to name a few. Personally I really liked the totem, IMO they are one of the better commercially available speakers in the price range I was looking.

One other thought, you didn't give any of your thoughts about the speakers that you heard. That would also be helpful when trying to give suggestions.

 

[runswithscisors]

I can get all 7 Klipsch speakers for around $1800 as a package deal ($2350 retail/total if purchased piece by piece), and the HSU sub goes for $759 shipped. I'm looking at a budget of around $3,000 for speakers and sub. As stated in the OP, in the $500 range for a receiver, and refurbished is just fine.

As far as the player goes, I'm having lip sync issues, and have to manually adjust/compensate for it on the BR player. I know that there are auto lip sync options out there, but have no idea how any of that works. I spoke with a guy at B.B. Magnolia about players and stated the same ideas about the "value" of a high end player when the output is digital. His statement was that the deep color output was an advantage even with digital output. I'm not even going to pretend to know anything about BR players or DACs, or bit rates, or deep color etc... BUT, I want to learn.

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

 

[runswithscisors]

One other thought, you didn't give any of your thoughts about the speakers that you heard. That would also be helpful when trying to give suggestions.

Auditioned some speakers, Polk RTi A7s, B and W 683s, Definitive Techology BP10Bs, Martin Logan Motion 12s and my current choice, Klipsch Reference

Definitive Technology sounded like mud.

Martin Logans sounded OK with music, but the center channel sounded like a "voice in a box", and entire sound wasn't convincing, sounded like I was listening to speakers. I want to listen to movies, not speakers.

I liked the B and W 683's and the Polk RTi A7's well enough, and was actually leaning towards the 683 when played side by side with the Polks.

But, then I heard the Klipsch Reference next to the B and W 683s, and they blew me away. They sounded better to my ears on Transformers, and made the cymbals in Motle Crue's "Wild side" sound, well, I'm not versed enough to say anything other than, just plain better. I was truly listening to the movies and music, not the speakers.

Also with the B and W, (Not sure of model numbers) the smaller book shelves sounded smaller, and to get a sound that "matched the size" of the 683s, I had to go with a larger speaker. With Klipsch, the RB 41-II (smallest bookshelf in the line) sounded just as big as the RB 61-ii (two sizes up). With my set up, I want smaller speakers on the wall.

Auditioned B and W, Sunfire, Definitive Technology, Polk, Martin Logan, and Klipsch Subs. I felt the Klipsch SW 115 was OK at best, but feel ID is the way to go with the sub. Based on some current threads, the HSU VTF-3 MK4 sounds like a possibility.

None of the Subs I listened to really dug very deep except for the Klipsch, which I'll factor in as the fact that all the others were sealed. The Klipsch SW 115 was OK, but I feel that for $800 better can be had.

 

[fuzz092888]

DENON AVR-3310CI 7.1-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

Marantz SR5006 AV Receiver with Networking and AirPlay | Accessories4less

Onkyo TX-NR709 7.2-Channel 3-D Ready Network A/V Receiver | Accessories4less

All three are pretty good options for your price range.

http://www.emptek.com/special_impseries71_pkg3.php

Verus Forte Tower Surround HD - Aperion Audio

Ascend System Advisor

All three of these ID companies offer a package in your price range, and you can always swap out the sub later, or you could put together a package that comes in lower than your price range so that you could get the HSU.

As for subs, I would get one of the packages wait a little while and then get

VTF-15H DualDrive Package

or if you want to wait a little longer

ULS-15 DualDrive Packages

but that's just my opinion. Being patient will allow you to put together a much better system than if you try to buy everything at once, however I can totally understand you wanting to do that. For your price range there are some very good options, but there are also some even better options if you spread everything out a little. However this should at least get you started.

 

[fuzz092888]

Meh the klipsch sub.....you can do much better. As for the speakers, the klipsch probably sounded better to your ears just because they're loud and crisp. Horn speakers are like that. I'm not trying to bash the klipsch at all, they are very good speakers, but comparably they will play louder than the others and given that you were watching a clip from transformers its no wonder you liked them more.

The issue can be, are they too loud? If you like that loud in your face sound then maybe they klipsch will be right for you. However many people find that they can be fatiguing for a listening sessions of any length.

I strongly recommend you go listen to at least totem (what can I say I'm showing a little bias here ) and then maybe go back to the klipsch. Remember to always bring a demo CD of your own with you that has at least one track from every genre of music you plan on putting through your speakers, or multiple CDs. Maybe a few movies too. Also don't make an opinion on a speaker based on one listening and with a limited amount of content.

You're on the right track, it just seems you need to get a little more critical in your auditions by bringing your own content with you (it wasn't clear to me if you did or didn't already).

I strongly suggest taking Aperion up on their 30 risk free trial. They even pay for return shipping and hey, with that deal you may even want to spring for their verus grand package just to take it for a test run.

 

[runswithscisors]

I have no problems putting together the system piece by piece, I just wanted to get the speakers all at once since I was getting a $550 discount to do so. I had planned and getting the receiver first, the the speakers, then the sub. Please note I'm not considering the Sub a speaker, but a separate purchase on its own.

I looked at the Marantz 5006, but the 5005 looks like a more feature packed receiver, any thoughts?

 

[fuzz092888]

It really depends, a few more features (5005), or more network connectivity(5006). This is what essentially separates them, decide which you'd rather have and there you go.

Its tough to tell you what to do, because if you really like the klipsch system and you're getting that discount then hey, that might be the best route to take. If you'd rather put together something a little slower, and maybe go with a 3.1/2 system for now and slowly add stuff on then your options for speakers change a little bit.

Sierra Tower pair: Ascend Direct

philharmonicaudio.com

philharmonicaudio.com

SongTower Images

The aperion Grand Versus Towers are still in the mix here.

Centers

SongCenter features/pricing

Sierra Horizon (Sierra Tower Center) - Page 13 - Ascend Acoustics Community

The above link is a picture of the ascend center speaker priced at $998

Sardonyx

The above are what $3000ish bucks get you for your front three speakers. Granted I left out the subwoofer costs but at least you start to get an idea where you could possibly head if you go a different route.

 

[zieglj01]

Look at the KEF Q series
Q900
KEF Q900 2.5-way Q Series floorstanding speakers | Vanns.com
Or, Q700
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/542876182/kef-q700-floorstanding-speaker?s_c=site_search

Q600
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/548023570/kef-q600c-center-channel?s_c=site_search

Q100
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/543621606/kef-q100-bookshelf-speakers?s_c=site_search

Take a hard look at the HSU and Rythmik subs - and also SVS subs.

Denon and Marantz are good receivers, along with Yamaha.

Panasonic makes good Blu-ray players
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMP-BD87-Ultra-Fast-Booting-Blu-ray/dp/B00752R4S2

More speakers:
Focal 726
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-41254-focal-chorus-726v-tower-speakers-pr.aspx

Focal 700
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-4927-focal-cc700v-center-speaker.aspx

Focal 705
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-41245-focal-chorus-705v-bookshelf-speakers-pr.aspx

 

[runswithscisors]

Meh the klipsch sub.....you can do much better. As for the speakers, the klipsch probably sounded better to your ears just because they're loud and crisp. Horn speakers are like that. I'm not trying to bash the klipsch at all, they are very good speakers, but comparably they will play louder than the others and given that you were watching a clip from transformers its no wonder you liked them more.

The issue can be, are they too loud? If you like that loud in your face sound then maybe they klipsch will be right for you. However many people find that they can be fatiguing for a listening sessions of any length.

Good advice!!! The dealer kept trying to turn up the volume and saying listen to this and that. I finally got blunt and said, I don't listen to movies that loud. At lower volumes is really where the Klipschs kicked the B&Ws, IMHO.

I haven't decided on the Klipsch's yet, they just sounded better to me, based on what I've heard. I appreciate the advice on the media. I've listened to everything within 100 miles of my house, had a nice day trip just to audition the Polks. I would love to Hear them compared to the Klipsch, and love to audition everything I can.

I may be a little biased towards horn tweeters. My current STEREO speakers in another room are vintage Cannon TLSs and these are what I'm used to listening to for music, and have been since the 7th grade. They had a 12" woofer, 12" bass radiator, 6" mid and a 3" x 8" horn tweeter. When I got my hands on them the bass radiators and woofers were trashed, it looked like somebody kicked them in and tore them up. I was unable to find parts at the time (this was pre-internet bang) so I put two car audio 12s in them wired in series to get 8 ohms, added a vent, and re-finished the cabinets in an industrial grey finish. I really hated these speakers (compared to my dad's vintage Knights) until I got a BSR equalizer in the 8th grade, and re did the ports in high school as a shop class project. Now I refuse to give them up, but that's a whole new thread there.

Please forgive me for such a noob question, but if a speaker sounds too loud, why can't you turn it down? Some speakers must be played at higher levels or they loose details, is that it? A nice salesman told me that I shouldn't account for this because Audesy has a built in equalizer that adjusts for different volume levels, and that every current receiver has Audesy. I didn't really believe him, but could there be a hint of truth to that statement? I'm trying to learn as mush as I can before I pay out any cash. I have no experience with auto calibrations, let alone Audesy's dynamic volume/dynamic EQ.

 

[runswithscisors]

Ah, finally up to 5 posts, here is a crude drawing of my HT room and adjoining spaces.

At least on my screen the color key looks like junk,

Blue is seating

Red is the TV stand

Brown are the two most convenient sub locations

Yellow-green is surround/front high

Purple is the FR and FL towers

Dark green is the center channel

I misstated 20 x 10 in OP, its 18 x 10, but couldn't go back and edit.

 

[fuzz092888]

I would say, and I'm no expert here, that if you were to put the klipsch up against a better set of speakers you would hear a definite difference. In my own experience when comparing klipsch speakers to speakers I thought were better (a vey subjective opinion to follow) the klipsch seemed too harsh and didn't stay true to the source material on softer subtler material. I also found that to my ears the klipsch didn't give as big of a soundstage as I would like. The gave room filling sound, no doubt, but didn't give me some of the separation of instruments if that makes any sense.

Volume and leveling is only part of the equation for my tastes and I tend to lean more towards accurate sound, big wide sound stage and good imaging. I think for HT purposes the klipsch would probably be fine, but for me, the didn't handle all of the music I like to listen to as well as other speakers.

 

[runswithscisors]

I'm noticing that Yamaha receivers have their own version of Audesey, YPAO. Any input on this?

 

[zieglj01]

Ah, finally up to 5 posts, here is a crude drawing of my HT room and adjoining spaces.
I misstated 20 x 10 in OP, its 18 x 10, but couldn't go back and edit.

I would work more on the fronts and surrounds, and not be too
concerned about front height channels, to start with. Get the
best quality speakers that you like, and can afford to start with.

 

[zieglj01]

I'm noticing that Yamaha receivers have their own version of Audesey, YPAO. Any input on this?

I would not be the best one to answer that, because I fired all of
them - including Mcacc and SnapEQ. However, I have not used the
Trinnov Optimizer in the Sherwood 972 - a lot of people like it.
I will say that a lot of people like the receiver set ups, and benefit
from it. I do not consider Audyssey better or worse, than the others.

 

[runswithscisors]

I would say, and I'm no expert here, that if you were to put the klipsch up against a better set of speakers you would hear a definite difference. In my own experience when comparing klipsch speakers to speakers I thought were better (a vey subjective opinion to follow) the klipsch seemed too harsh and didn't stay true to the source material on softer subtler material. I also found that to my ears the klipsch didn't give as big of a soundstage as I would like. The gave room filling sound, no doubt, but didn't give me some of the separation of instruments if that makes any sense.

Volume and leveling is only part of the equation for my tastes and I tend to lean more towards accurate sound, big wide sound stage and good imaging. I think for HT purposes the klipsch would probably be fine, but for me, the didn't handle all of the music I like to listen to as well as other speakers.

That makes sense. I'm looking to play music for "get togethers". I have a (almost ashamed to admit it) Sherwood RX5502 dual zone receiver sitting next to the current Onkyo HTIB receiver, that feeds (again, almost ashamed to admit it) a pair of Polk R150s in the kitchen/dining room, and a pair of Definitive Technology AW 5500s on the back porch. The kids in the back listen to their pop (I think that's what they call it), the women in the kitchen listen to whatever whoever has on their i pod, and the men congregate in the living room and listen to rock, or watch the game, and the teen girls end up in my office listening to lord only knows what on my vintage stereo in there, and the teen boys always end up in my shop listening to the stereo in there. As long as all the music stays at a background level, (and no beer disappears from the shop fridge) all is well.

I got a little off track. About 16 hours per year my HT system will be put to use for music. I listen to music while I work (office, shop, backyard, kitchen) I watch movies to relax (Home Theater)

 

[runswithscisors]

Looking at the Denon ARV-3310 CI it has HDMI 1.3 switching. Will that handle 3D and ARC functions? That looks like one heck of a receiver.

 

[zieglj01]

Looking at the Denon ARV-3310 CI it has HDMI 1.3 switching. Will that handle 3D and ARC functions? That looks like one heck of a receiver.

No

The Marantz 5006 will
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5006/Marantz-SR5006-AV-Receiver-with-Networking-and-AirPlay/1.html#!specifications

And, Denon 2312
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2312CI/DENON-AVR-2312CI-7.2-Integrated-Network-A/V-Surround-Receiver/1.html

Denon 891
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR891/DENON-AVR-891-7.1-Channel-105W-A/V-1.4-3D-Ready-Receiver/1.html

Denon 991
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR991/DENON-AVR-991-7.2ch-Networking-A/V-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html