ATI AT2000 amps

[slipperybidness]

In technical terms the circuit topology Pure Balance represents, end-to-end differential signalling and amplification stages, theoretically makes a difference. Symmetric noise and distortion are cancelled in the signal path. Does it make an audible difference? That's a different question.

As with all high level design decisions, implementation is really the deciding factor. Can a properly implemented single-ended amplifier sound as good or even better than a balanced one? Yes. Without question. Choose lower noise components, a stiffer, higher-output power supply, better-matched output transistors, a higher input impedance (which lessens the current demand on the upstream component)... any number of factors, can swamp the improvement rendered by a balanced design. But, all things being equal, I would much rather have a balanced design like the AT2000/3000 than a single-ended one.

But is it audible? Maybe with speakers of the quality of the Phil 3. Maybe. But only maybe.

Does a balanced design also reject noise generated from outside the system? i.e. rF noise or noise from power lines?

 

[internova]

I lose my faith in AVR once when I changed my AVR pre to DCB1. DCB1 has more clarity. It could be the AVR or could be the level matching. But recently, I switched from DCB1 to a BurBrown digital volume control. It sounded very good. I probably feel it has more control at the bass. So it makes me wonder there is no reason a good AVR cannot use these chips and simple circuit in their machines, plus they have the economy of scale.

When I audition the very same speakers (involving some moving of course) in someone's mega dollar electronics, there is something that "I didn't hear" (or subtle difference) on my system. The whole electronic chain is different so I cannot really isolate where the subtle difference comes from. It is very difficult to argue where the "extra detail" I'm hearing come from. The room gain is different and I like my room better. I said "subtle" in comparison to switching different speakers.

I have an 3-4 yrs old Denon 1610 for my theater. It doesn't have any preouts. The AVR990 looks attractive. If I don't care about the amp section, would higher end Denon be any better in the electronics?

1) AVR measure as well as class A analog stereo preamp in terms of FR, THD, XTalk, SNR. In fact, some AVR from Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, and Pioneer have measured better than some analog preamp. In addition many of these AVR give you a lot more features like bass management/subwoofer management, channel gain control, etc. They also look better aesthetically to my eyes, and aesthetics is huge on my list.

BTW, I used to own four Acurus RL11 Class-A Analog preamplifiers. I used to be almost 100% analog. They measured exceptionally well and sound awesome. But I found that they don't sound any better than even a $400 AVR in Direct Mode.

2) The Audio Critic was the 1st publication that made complete sense to me. For example, I could never tell the difference between my amps when level matched. I could not even tell the difference between preamp + amp vs AVR in direct mode. I could not tell any difference between my Kimber Kable, Audioquest, Vampire Wire vs Radio Shack wires. I thought I was crazy. But The Audio Critic dispelled all these things. Double-blinded studies have proven that amps, preamps, wires, DAC, & media players just pretty much sounded .......well, the same or at least so similar that most people couldn't tell the difference. Most people. So I think it is possible that some people can tell the difference. I'm just not one of those people.

3) Theoretically you would still have some benefits of the Pure-Balanced fully balanced tech even if you use RCA unbalanced cables. Just like theoretically you would still have some benefits to passive bi-amping.

The AT2000/3000 also have the "fuse-less" automatic reset circuit feature. My understanding is that you don't have to worry about blowing any fuses on the amp. When I had my Acurus 200X3 amps, I had to replace some fuses. I don't think the AT1800 has this feature.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The AVR990 looks attractive. If I don't care about the amp section, would higher end Denon be any better in the electronics?

Both from HTM:

"Denon AVR-2311CI...two channels...8-ohm...1 percent distortion at 154.3 watts. Into 4 ohms...1 percent distortion at 198.8 watts...THD+N...0.005 percent...Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –74.43 decibels left to right and –75.83 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio...–112.12 dBrA"

Denon 4310 (should be like 4311):

"Denon AVR-4310CI...two channels driving 8-ohm loads...179.3 watts. Into 4 ohms...1 percent distortion...258.5 watts....THD+N...0.005%...Crosstalk...–89.37 dB left to right and –87.47 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio...was –112.28 dBrA."

As you can see, both the less expensive made-in-China AVR2311 measures just as well as the higher-end-made-in-Japan AVR4310. The XTalk on the 4310 is better, but insignificant for most people.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Does a balanced design also reject noise generated from outside the system? i.e. rF noise or noise from power lines?

If the external factor occurred on an upstream device, like a preamp, and the noise is now part of the input signal to the balanced circuit, no.

If you're discussing any common mode influence on the device with the balanced circuits, yes.

 

[internova]

If I got a Denon 990 + ATI Amp, we'll have the same chain (except the CD Transport) before Phil3. Kind of scary...... How did that happen?

Any value of "pure" processor like Marantz AV7005 or Integra 40.2?

Both from HTM:

"Denon AVR-2311CI...two channels...8-ohm...1 percent distortion at 154.3 watts. Into 4 ohms...1 percent distortion at 198.8 watts...THD+N...0.005 percent...Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –74.43 decibels left to right and –75.83 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio...–112.12 dBrA"

Denon 4310 (should be like 4311):

"Denon AVR-4310CI...two channels driving 8-ohm loads...179.3 watts. Into 4 ohms...1 percent distortion...258.5 watts....THD+N...0.005%...Crosstalk...–89.37 dB left to right and –87.47 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio...was –112.28 dBrA."

As you can see, both the less expensive made-in-China AVR2311 measures just as well as the higher-end-made-in-Japan AVR4310. The XTalk on the 4310 is better, but insignificant for most people.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I got a Denon 990 + ATI Amp, we'll have the same chain....before Phil3. Kind of scary...... How did that happen?

That would be scary.

(except the CD Transport)

I have 5 Denon now, so I play music from my server via network.

Any value of "pure" processor like Marantz AV7005 or Integra 40.2?

I've compared these pre-pro against AVR many times. The measurements are practically the same. In some cases the AVR actually measure better than some pre-pro. Kind of hard for some people to accept, but the FR, THD, XTalk, SNR measurements don't lie.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just installed the AT2004 in my system. Phil3 now hooked to AT2004. Dead silence when music not playing. No hiss even with ears next to drivers.

AT2004/Phil3 - no hiss
AT3005/KEF 201/2 - no hiss
AT3002/Salon2 - no hiss
AT6012 - Orion - slight hiss. Must be that damn analog XO? Or is it just the AT6012?

Does the AT1800 have any hiss anyone?

Maybe it's the Pure-Balance at work on the AT2000/3000.

I remember my Emotiva MPS-2 had some hiss. So did all my Acurus amps.

 

[internova]

My XPA2 has "some" hiss but it is not audible at my listening distance. To be fair, XPA2's hiss is less than my ClassD amp. Since I don't have any ATIs, I guess I'm not in the club yet.

It is funny that buying a 7 channel AVR for a two channel preamp is actually cheaper than going to a dedicated preamp. And even knowing I will be using an external amp, buying AVR is way cheaper than prepro. It is interesting how the economy of scale works.

So I guess as long as I stay above Denon 33xx level, I should be fine? After looking at different preamp and prepro, suddenly Denon 33xx becomes so affordable. How did that happen?

Just installed the AT2004 in my system. Phil3 now hooked to AT2004. Dead silence when music not playing. No hiss even with ears next to drivers.

AT2004/Phil3 - no hiss
AT3005/KEF 201/2 - no hiss
AT3002/Salon2 - no hiss
AT6012 - Orion - slight hiss. Must be that damn analog XO? Or is it just the AT6012?

Does the AT1800 have any hiss anyone?

Maybe it's the Pure-Balance at work on the AT2000/3000.

I remember my Emotiva MPS-2 had some hiss. So did all my Acurus amps.

 

[Irvrobinson]

AT6012 - Orion - slight hiss. Must be that damn analog XO? Or is it just the AT6012?

Well, you have enough AT2000/3000 channels to put them in the signal path in place of the AT6012 and find out. I'd bet on the amp causing the hiss.

I've been too lazy to move the old Levinson amps that lost their jobs due to hiss like that. And not enough power. They're still sitting around collecting dust. Maybe when my son comes back into town I'll talk him into helping me pack them up. 110lbs each. No handles. Heat sinks everywhere with sharp edges. Pretty, but not practical.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, you have enough AT2000/3000 channels to put them in the signal path in place of the AT6012 and find out. I'd bet on the amp causing the hiss.

I've been too lazy to move the old Levinson amps that lost their jobs due to hiss like that. And not enough power. They're still sitting around collecting dust. Maybe when my son comes back into town I'll talk him into helping me pack them up. 110lbs each. No handles. Heat sinks everywhere with sharp edges. Pretty, but not practical.

The keyword there is "LAZY" - which I am a member of.

I'll let some other guys with AT1800s tell us if there is any hiss.

I think it's just that darn Orion analog XO. Shouldn't Linkwitz be going to a digial XO by now?
Behind the times much?

But for a fact, the AT2004, AT3002, & AT3005 have absolutely no hiss even with the ear pressed against the drivers!

Also fact - Emotiva amps, Acurus amps, AudioSource amps, some Mark Levinson amps, (? AT6012), and probably most amps have this "hiss" with the ear next to the driver, but not from 6ft away.

 

[cpp]

Does the AT1800 have any hiss anyone?

dead quiet

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My XPA2 has "some" hiss but it is not audible at my listening distance. To be fair, XPA2's hiss is less than my ClassD amp. Since I don't have any ATIs, I guess I'm not in the club yet.

It is funny that buying a 7 channel AVR for a two channel preamp is actually cheaper than going to a dedicated preamp. And even knowing I will be using an external amp, buying AVR is way cheaper than prepro. It is interesting how the economy of scale works.

So I guess as long as I stay above Denon 33xx level, I should be fine? After looking at different preamp and prepro, suddenly Denon 33xx becomes so affordable. How did that happen?

Here is the measurements for the Denon 3808, which should be similar to 3312/3311/3310/990/991:

Response measures –0.02 dB at 20 Hz, +0.03 dB at 20 kilohertz,...THD+N was less than 0.004%. Crosstalk was –87.53 dB left to right and –87.69 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio was –106.09 dBrA.

The 4311, 4810, 5308 will have better numbers, but inaudible differences, so purely academic.

So I think the Denon 3xxx (or their clones 990/991) should be great as a pre-pro.

Hey, Amazon has a new Denon 990 for $638. Call Electronics Expo and see if they would sell you the 3311 for the same price.

Even though they are clones, the name "3311" just sounds more prestigious than "990".

If they won't, the 990 will be just as great, minus some prestige.

Of course, they have sold some new 4311 to few guys for $1330 + s/h.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

dead quiet

OK. ATI amps are dead quiet. What can I say? ATI makes awesome amps. And made in the USA too.

Linkwitz Orion Active Analog Crossover - Not dead silent.

 

[slipperybidness]

I don't think the current lineup has handles at all

To revive an old part of the post. Handles in the rear serve another good purpose. If you have a rack with a solid back, then the handles offer some protection to the connections when you slide it back. Handles stick out a bit farther than all your wiring, so when the handles hit the back, it stops and you can't kink up the wiring and break something.

 

[Solid-State]

I know you love those ATI amps as I love my Cinepro, but these Custom Built Amps - AB Systems Cinema Series Amplifiers | AVForums.com - UK Online - Page 15 got me thinking. Just scroll down on page for pricing and pictures. It's page 15 but you can start at page one if it interests you. Since you like everything custom build I thought it might catch you eye. I am still a Cinepro man and always will be, I think. On pricing Bob will work with you.

That AB Sytems Cinema 6500SE sure looks like a Cinepro with WBT jacks and some cap upgrades and various other component upgrades and "tweaks".

In that thread it says they will be available for 50% off !

That was last year... my god what a deal on a Cinepro !

 

[Solid-State]

Seems overpriced. And are there any 3rd party measurements like Stereophile, Soundstage, HTM, etc?

I say stick with your Cinepro.

I'm most certain it's the same amp AcuDef or a variant on the same/similar design. Of all of Bobs creations I bet that AB 6500SE (what a history AB has, love to see that label again) is his pride and joy.

It's most certainly better looking than a Cinepro!

Purple with a gold faceplate...

no comment!

LOL

I always forget about those when people talk amps and ask for suggestions/list.

Boy owhh boy if you have the money and can pickup one of those DB 6500SEs for HALF PRICE I sure as heck would.

It looks like Bob's 456se with a cherry on top AND 50% off intro deal... my god TEARS for those of us that could have afforded it and missed out...

TEARS!

 

[Solid-State]

Correction 'Cinepro 456se with a cherry on top'.

Bob's official pieces carry the AB International logo/moniker. Sorry Bob and Cinepro to confuse the two outfits as they don't directly do business anymore.

Same design/layout... different components and pcb revisions. That 6500 SE is his current creme de la creme BABY.

Last year he was offering them for a smoken deal...

Darn there is a guy on AVS that has a thread called 15-30k system or something to that affect and I was suggesting amps speakers and all kinds of Solid-State endless pontifications...



well

He needs to know about Bob's amps! But I have been kicked from the thread... I guess that guy is going to lose out!

Would somebody with compassion tell him about Bob! He knows of Jed, Craig and Jim so he's A OK on speakers. And he's onto EJs pre amp... NOW HE NEEDS BOB!

LOL

-Sticking it to the middle man one line card at a time...

 

[walter duque]

That AB Sytems Cinema 6500SE sure looks like a Cinepro with WBT jacks and some cap upgrades and various other component upgrades and "tweaks".

In that thread it says they will be available for 50% off !

That was last year... my god what a deal on a Cinepro !

I spoke to Bob a few weeks ago, they are still available at that price. I bought a few amps off Bob for some friends of mine over the years.

 

[walter duque]

I'm most certain it's the same amp AcuDef or a variant on the same/similar design. Of all of Bobs creations I bet that AB 6500SE (what a history AB has, love to see that label again) is his pride and joy.

It's most certainly better looking than a Cinepro!

Purple with a gold faceplate...

no comment!

LOL

I always forget about those when people talk amps and ask for suggestions/list.

Boy owhh boy if you have the money and can pickup one of those DB 6500SEs for HALF PRICE I sure as heck would.

It looks like Bob's 456se with a cherry on top AND 50% off intro deal... my god TEARS for those of us that could have afforded it and missed out...

TEARS!

You did mean 4K6SE not 456SE, right? Seems to me that this is the same amp he used to make for Verastarr. I think that relationship is no longer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Darn there is a guy on AVS that has a thread called 15-30k system or something to that affect and I was suggesting amps speakers and all kinds of Solid-State endless pontifications...

He needs to know about Bob's amps! But I have been kicked from the thread... I guess that guy is going to lose out!

He needs to get some digital 1000wpc x 2 ch RMS 8ohm amps that only cost $2,000.