Speaker audition

[Nuance AH]

1) I enjoy this hobby a lot. But I really don't take this hobby or any hobby or entertainment as seriously or passionately as you or a lot of guys.

I think you're very passionate.

2) You are right. I'm not willing to spend the time or money to prove what I can't hear.

Nor should you. The room was at play, as confirmed by your experiment, but in this instance simply moving the speakers (as I had also recommend over a week ago in the SS8 thread) provided better results than acoustic panels, which isn't surprising considering the design of the Orions. Free performance cannot be beat, and all without convincing the wife acoustic panels are "art." Win Win!

Those 3 can each write a book on audio.

And AJ will one day soon become a prominent speaker designer/builder with his own multi-million dollar speaker company. Right now his company is small (Soundfield Audio). But they were the talk of the town in Tampa last weekend. Even Bob Carver showed up to listen to AJ's speakers!

Well, two of them could (AJ and Grant); the other one not so much. Anyway, I would have invited AJ to attend our GTG, but that's like a 22 hour trip...

 

[Swerd]

I know that Dennis Murphy does not treat his audio listening rooms. He does have a small acoustic absorbing panel on a wall near his piano. He also does not use any EQ, other than what he puts into his crossover networks, which can be substantial depending on the speaker.

I don't know what Jim Salk does in his home. When he travels to audio shows, he brings some home-made acoustic panels, and a large rug. At the Capitol AudioFest I did get to see him and Dennis in action as they set up their speakers in the hotel room. They both have a rather good understanding of acoustic room interactions, and how to best place speakers and listeners in a room to avoid listening problems. They also both specialize in designing speakers that seem to be (in my experience) less finicky about placement in a room.

I actually met AJ last summer at the Capitol AudioFest where he showed his odd-looking but good sounding creation. He was interesting to talk with, and I liked him. At the time, I didn't know he was the same AJ who took great efforts to offend people here. As I spoke with him, he had none of the offensive traits he showed here. I'm guessing that he may enjoy taking on different extremes in online-personalities on different forums for the fun of it. Unfortunately, his "inability to suffer fools" also gets in the way of effectively communicating his ideas with people.

 

[GranteedEV]

Those 3 can each write a book on audio.

I started writing a book last July...






...A futuristic High Fantasy novel.

...Nothin to do with audio

 

[ski2xblack]

...I didn't know he was the same AJ who took great efforts to offend people here. As I spoke with him, he had none of the offensive traits he showed here...

That because if he ever tried his abrasive approach in person, he'd get his front teeth knocked out.

 

[GO-NAD!]

By signature way do you mean by being a flaming bag of sh!t?

He may be whip-smart, but if one can't make a point without offending half of the forum, one will receive the royal smack-down. AJ certainly displayed vast knowledge of speaker design, but he was obnoxious, arrogant and narcissistic in his comments. And those were his good points.

 

[Nuance AH]

He may be whip-smart, but if one can't make a point without offending half of the forum, one will receive the royal smack-down. AJ certainly displayed vast knowledge of speaker design, but he was obnoxious, arrogant and narcissistic in his comments. And those were his good points.

Those qualities remind me of a certain individual on this forum. Although, I'm sure some think the same of me.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I've bought panels in the past that some people have used and recommended. Did not work for me at all.

When you bought them, what was it you were trying to fix? If you just buy some and place them by guesswork, when you don't know what issue you were trying address, what could you expect?

I can't recall his precise wording, but from what I remember reading in Dr. Toole's book, as a general rule, he recommends treating the front wall.

Due to circumstances (read WAF), I'm forced to place my mains very close to the front wall of my HT system. Of course, that played havoc with the FR. Bass trapping made a big improvement. Fortunately, the false wall for my PJ screen provided camouflage so that the room doesn't look like a "padded cell"

I don't have the problem of the seating being against the back wall, but for those who do, treating that wall is probably a requirement for good sound. Every room I been in where the seat is in that position has had cr@p SQ.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When you bought them, what was it you were trying to fix?

Nothing. I wasn't trying to fix anything.

Some people think that every single room needs to be treated - that every speaker can somehow be improved with room treatments. Even if they are the best sounding you've ever heard.

So I tried placing on the side walls first. Nothing.

Then I tried front wall. Nothing.

Back wall. Nothing.

Several weeks ago, I tried all four walls. It was not pretty.

But I just wanted to see if my crystal clear detailed sound could somehow become paradise.

 

[GranteedEV]

Nothing. I wasn't trying to fix anything.

Some people think that every single room needs to be treated - that every speaker can somehow be improved with room treatments. Even if they are the best sounding you've ever heard.

So I tried placing on the side walls first. Nothing.

Then I tried front wall. Nothing.

Back wall. Nothing.

Several weeks ago, I tried all four walls. It was not pretty.

But I just wanted to see if my crystal clear detailed sound could somehow become paradise.

The problem with absorption panels is that they mess with the sound power response just like any room does.

But as an experiment, when the weather is nice you should go listen to your KEFs outdoors in the back yard and tell us what you think compared to indoors. That's the only way of evaluating the room. a few 2-4" panels are just a waste of time IMO.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem with absorption panels is that they mess with the sound power response just like any room does.

But as an experiment, when the weather is nice you should go listen to your KEFs outdoors in the back yard and tell us what you think compared to indoors. That's the only way of evaluating the room. a few 2-4" panels are just a waste of time IMO.

Did I tell you I got a bunch of Auralex 1'x1' panels couple of weeks ago? I had 96 of those panels taped all over my room for a ONE time experiment (never to be repeated).

I would not have done it, but 2 things made it happen: 1) my wife was out 7of town for business trip and 2) they were sold directly by Amazon so returning them was no hassle (except for putting those things back in their boxes!).

Anyway, I'm not willing to do any more acoustic panels or outdoor experiments.

If the panels work for some folks, I'm happy for them.

I'm just going to relax and enjoy the music and movies.

 

[DS-21]

But who listens to 110 dB?

And when PENG went to some of the live symphonies, he brought along a SPL meter. I don't think the sound went over 90 dB even during the loudest parts.

FWIW and with the caveats that (a) the meter was uncalibrated (Rat Shack analog model) and (b) I don't know what the spectral balance was, I recorded peaks of 106-107dB in the Philharmonie in Berlin during concert in 1998 or 1999 wherein the incomparable Vladimir Ashkenazy took the DSO (of whom he was at the time creative director) through Shostakovich 5. I was sitting basically on top of the French horns looking down at Maestro Ashkenazy. Section H, I believe it is.

That was the last time I took an SPL meter to an orchestra, though, because I paid an unacceptably steep price for my geekery: my date didn't come home with me.

I don't have the problem of the seating being against the back wall, but for those who do, treating that wall is probably a requirement for good sound. Every room I been in where the seat is in that position has had cr@p SQ.

Treating the back wall will maybe help on the margins, but it won't do much. Treating the back wall will certainly be an inferior-sounding solution to no treatment and a better listening position! That said, while some here aren't smart enough to grasp the concept, there have been a few speakers designed to be placed into the room, with the listener against the back wall. Joachim Gerhard's ur-Audio Physik Virgo is a good example thereof. Not exactly a good solution for multichannel, but for stereo they sound pretty good for their dynamic limits when used as the designer intended.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Did I tell you I got a bunch of Auralex 1'x1' panels couple of weeks ago? I had 96 of those panels taped all over my room for a ONE time experiment (never to be repeated).

I would not have done it, but 2 things made it happen: 1) my wife was out 7of town for business trip and 2) they were sold directly by Amazon so returning them was no hassle (except for putting those things back in their boxes!).

But you're not passionate about audio? Excuse me?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But you're not passionate about audio? Excuse me?

Just not passionate enough to buy measurement equipments and do the measuring.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I recorded peaks of 106-107dB in the Philharmonie in Berlin during concert in 1998 or 1999...

Was that A-weight or C-weight?

When I measured the Max volume during my listening on Salon2 in my room, I would get ~93dB dB-C & 85 dB-A on my digital SPL.

But I can't I imagine myself with 107 dB-A, which is 22 dB-A above my personal Max volume.

Too loud.

But I think the key word is "peak", and not "average".

 

[DS-21]

Was that A-weight or C-weight?

C fast, IIRC.

I always thought A was just for ambient noise.

When I measured the Max volume during my listening on Salon2 in my room, I would get ~93dB dB-C & 85 dB-A on my digital SPL.

Hmm. On the JL Audio SPL meter app for my iPhone 4S, last time I was curious about levels (listening to the Wish You Were Here SACD) I registered 98dB with some regularity (not specified, but I assume C).

And that's with itsy bitsy baby KEF HTS3005SE's across the front, three small subs, and their smaller 3" Uni-Q eggs for surrounds. And for that matter before the big Sherwood amp, so just the little amps from an Anthem MRX 300 driving the mains.

Again, not a calibrated meter; I was just fooling around home alone because I was bored and Dr. DS-21 was on night call.

But I think the key word is "peak", and not "average".

Certainly. At that performance of Shostakovich 5, IIRC, my eyeball guesstimate of the average would've been in the mid 70s. And that's DSCH 5! A nice, dynamic piece that often had me fiddling with the "range" knob on the SPL meter.

Classic.

One thing I never claimed to be was a good (or even adequate) copy-editor. I probably have more posts with little "edited by..." notations on the bottom than anyone. (As an aside, that was the hardest thing about writing my casebook, West, Lexis, et al. don't really do those things for their casebook authors any more; you send them a "camera ready" PDF and hard copy, and they run the presses.)

Here's that sentence, edited more carefully:

"What you're hearing is primarily you steering the dipole null in a manner that (1) minimizes ipsilateral early reflections; (2) maximizes contralateral early reflection (3) attenuates and delays late reflections a little by increasing their average pathlength."

But the point I was conveying comes through even in the sloppy version to which you reacted. Claims that what ATDG heard were due to "the room" are simply foolish, given that a monopole and dipole were observed giving different results when overtoed in the same room. What differs between those speakers is radiation pattern, and how that affects the above-described reflections.

 

[Alex2507]

But who listens to 110 dB?

I checked with the pow-wow drum guy and the peaks at the drum were 125 db, C-weighted, slow response.

With classical or jazz I don't think peaks of 110 would be unheard of but my point was actually supportive of your lack of interest in acoustic panels. In your application they aren't required. In other applications they are. It's a to each his own position I've adopted with that but with an understanding that different objectives require different measures.

In support of the 'it's the room' point of view I want to say that in my condo when I'm talking on the phone and walking around the sound of my own voice takes a serious turn for the worse when I enter the dining area with hardwood floors. It sounds best in room with acoustic panels. I've noticed it many times and it's never been something I actually tried to listen for. The difference just jumps out at you.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I checked with the pow-wow drum guy and the peaks at the drum were 125 db, C-weighted, slow response.

With classical or jazz I don't think peaks of 110 would be unheard of but my point was actually supportive of your lack of interest in acoustic panels. In your application they aren't required. In other applications they are. It's a to each his own position I've adopted with that but with an understanding that different objectives require different measures.

+1. I fully believe my wife's rim shots are 125db at a couple of meters. I often wear ear plugs for her gigs, so peaks levels are easily over 106db, which is the loudest I've measured in my listening room.

 

[PENG]

I hope you're not calling PENG "cheap".

And I believe the live symphonies were indoors, not outdoors.

And is the SPL volume C-weight or A-weight?

I can understand C-weight volume of 95dBC. The volume I listen to is ~ 93-94 dBC max. But they are ~ 85dbA Max.

It was a cheap Radio Shack digital SPL meter. I used C fast. I am too lazy to check what I said but 90 dB peak seemed to ring the bell. I also thought I had mentioned it was a small orchestra, 35 to 40, again I am not sure if that's what I said but it was definitely a smaller philharmonic orchestra. I wasn't sitting in the front rolls either.

I don't think my cheap SPL meter would capture split second peaks so there might have been >90 dB peaks that I missed, thought I really doubt that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

125 dBC seems crazy loud.

Anyone afraid of hearing loss?

I try to keep my Max volume around 85 dBA to reduce risk of hearing loss. This appears to be ~ 93 dBC.

 

[Josuah]

I think everyone needs to calm down, relax, and go buy Tales of Graces F.

I have it on my "to buy" queue.