Amps vs recievers

[Josuah]

Most likely had a defective or poorly designed amp then. It's not impossible to design an amp to do this.

I'd rather say we have differences in experience. I seriously doubt they were defective or poorly designed, and some of the brands I'm including in this category overlap with the ones you listed.

 

[PENG]

Some are significant enough to the point of making it much easier to understand speech with one amp versus another.

I wonder what kind of amps would make it much less easier to understand speech than other amp. That's really extreme, very interesting indeed, if true and not just because it is defective or something......, I sure hope no one ended up with such an amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We know the opinions of The Audio Critic ( consisting of engineers, PhD, audiophile) is that amps don't have a sound of their own.

We've also heard about the infamous DBT between a $300 Pioneer AVR & $10,000 Boulder amp, which found most people could not tell the difference.

Personally, I've never been able to tell the difference in SQ of amps. But I'm not an engineer or physicist nor do I have PhD in electrical engineering or physics.

IMO, you won't need an external amp like most of us.

But like most of us, that won't stop you from buying an amp.

So you might as well get one that can output 200wpc.

I say get the XPA-5.

 

[DS-21]

Now am i going to hear much of a difference between the 125watts from the emotiva vs the onkyo 135 watts, or does the onkyo even put that out continuously?

No, unless your speakers have particularly low impedance minima.

Which is to say, in the vast majority of cases, no.

So true Josuah. Many here say all amps are the same, which is ludicrous. Your brave making this controversial statement.

Most amps do sound different from one another - when listening with levels unmatched, and sighted. Why? Because of small differences in level. It is well known that, when hearing a difference that's really just a level difference, people will not identify it accurately, but rather interpret that difference using the vocabulary of tonal changes. And if they know which is which, they will tend to ascribe the superior performance to the more expensive (or more expensive-looking) one.

Also, there is the obvious listener bias that is rampantly uncontrolled in sighted listening.

Properly match levels, and they do not sound different unless they are incompetently designed, broken, or operating outside their design parameters.

As counterpoint, I've done comparisons with amps within their rated power (for example, spec'ed at a max of 150Wrms and running them at 25Wrms) and there are differences to my ears. Some are significant enough to the point of making it much easier to understand speech with one amp versus another.

How did you match levels? How did you switch amps?

(Leaving out tube amps, which obviously fall into a different class by default.)

There are plenty of competently designed tube amps that sound no different from any other amp when in correct adjustment. Some McIntosh models, and the old Sonic Frontiers Power 3, spring to mind.

 

[wire]

You need to re-read what Joshua has typed. Really. If you had bothered you would take particular note that he is speaking to the marketing of 'watts' that manufacturers often employ when rating their receivers.

As an owner or had in my possession no fewer than 8 brands of amps over the years (Behringer, Crown, Parasound, Adcom, Classe, NAD, Emotiva among them) I will say that when driven within an envelope that all the listed brands are comfortable in the differences weren't enough to worry about.

I like NAD power vs the mass reciever , but i owned NAD years ago and went to Bryston and the difference was night and day , NAD and my POLK 2bs where life less , but with the Bryston they came alive . I find NAD very flat sounding amps , but much better power than your mass marketed recievers )) Oh , Yeh , the SP3 amp , the upper end is so sweet , my ears never get sore from tthat amp ))

 

[mtrycrafts]

...But I'm not an engineer or physicist nor do I have PhD in electrical engineering or physics.

....

That is too bad then we'd have an in-house guru to run to for the facts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

As counterpoint, I've done comparisons with amps within their rated power ...)

Interesting. Please tell us how you did these comparisons.

 

[Mad Norseman]

Yes, add the XPA-3

If your Onkyo is rated to output 135w with 2 channels driven (typical x 2 channels for receivers), and its a 7.1 channel capable receiver, then,...yes, I think you'd benefit from the Emotiva XPA-3 (200w x 3, all 3 channels driven).
Use the XPA-3 to drive your left, right & center, and let the Onkyo loaf just driving your 2 surrounds.
You'll get cleaner sound, much better headroom, and a ton more available REAL power, (and we can never have enough power, right?).
Enjoy!

 

[Hostility]

thats what i was thinking, but I have another question for you guys. I have to send my onkyo out for repair tomorrow for the good ol HDMI board problem. Now im very picky with my equipment, and im not sure if i should sell it when i get it back as im not sure if they are replacing them with the same boards. It seems like on the AVS forum, it happens at the 2 yr mark. So what is the difference from a high end receiever $1000-$2000 vs a pre pro and an amp? Im going to get an amp anyways at some point. Just curious as i may sell this when i get it back and jump ship to another company, i really like the marantz.

 

[DS-21]

If your Onkyo is rated to output 135w with 2 channels driven (typical x 2 channels for receivers), and its a 7.1 channel capable receiver, then,...yes, I think you'd benefit from the Emotiva XPA-3 (200w x 3, all 3 channels driven)***You'll get cleaner sound, much better headroom, and a ton more available REAL power, (and we can never have enough power, right?).

.[/quote]

You are aware that 200W is just a little more than a 1.5dB difference in headroom compared to 135W, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, probably better parts, some made in Japan instead of China, more features like Audyssey XT32, more HDMI I/O, more power, better pride of ownership, better resale value. The usual stuff.

The Denon 4311 for $1650 new delivered looks good. Unless Amazon Direct has one used, but like new w/ full new warranty.

DenPureVideo, I mean DenPureSound got his Denon 4311 brand new from Electronic Expo for $1500.

Electronic Expo has a like-new for $1300. I bet you can talk to them and get a new one for $1650 delivered.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0042KVX2S/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1330012175&sr=8-1&condition=used

 

[Josuah]

How about instead of explaining the entire process by which I may have performed an A/B comparison of two pieces of gear, you assume I'm a rational, intelligent being who is capable of making actual decisions that are have some basis in truth.

I do not ask if people level matched, performed a DBT, used an anechoic chamber, verified the humidity and temperature, or cleaned out their ears when posting that they thought speaker A did X, Y, and Z better than speaker B.

I do not say speaker C must have been defective, or imply that one's hearing is damaged, or their brain was deceived when an opinion, preference, or experience is presented that is different than my own.

I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

In my experience, no matter what I may state, those who disagree will continue to maintain their stance. I have no problem with posts that state an opinion, preference, or experience that is different than my own.

Otherwise once a month I will have to go through a lab write up whenever I post a differing statement. And if that's the case, I'd rather go back to ignoring this forum. I hope that is not the unconscious will of this board.

I am well aware of studies indicating louder is equated with better, the psychological placebo associated with appearance or cost, and that I am subject to these same phenomenon. I am also confident I can tell the difference between the sound of a trumpet and a flute, even if I am not performing a DBT and haven't level matched the musicians' lungs. I don't think my statements fall in the same category as something like "I see dead speakers".

 

[Hostility]

.

You are aware that 200W is just a little more than a 1.5dB difference in headroom compared to 135W, right?[/QUOTE]

I'm not 100% looking to make it louder, but read so often that the sound crisps up an gets cleaner. I highly doubt that 135 watts is coming out off all 5 speakers.

But as of right now I may not even keep the onlyo but sell it when I get it back and now I start my research on receivers vs pre amps

 

[jinjuku]

How about instead of explaining the entire process by which I may have performed an A/B comparison of two pieces of gear, you assume I'm a rational, intelligent being who is capable of making actual decisions that are have some basis in truth.

I do not ask if people level matched, performed a DBT, used an anechoic chamber, verified the humidity and temperature, or cleaned out their ears when posting that they thought speaker A did X, Y, and Z better than speaker B.

I do not say speaker C must have been defective, or imply that one's hearing is damaged, or their brain was deceived when an opinion, preference, or experience is presented that is different than my own.

I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

You are asking for courtesy to be rendered in fog of procedure. What ever that procedure may be. No one knows.

Now I am about to go look at an AB international amp. If everything goes well I will bring it back and hook it up. How ever I will perform a few perfunctories:

1. I will set the mixer volume in patch mix to a certain level and record that level.

2. I will play a 440, 1Khz, 10Khz tone and record the voltage and record the SPL. I will also note the AC voltage at the speaker terminals.

3. I will connect up the AB International amp. I will again play the same tone with the same mixer volume. I will adjust the amp sensitivity for the same SPL output and also note AC voltages.

It is at that point that I can at least ascertain that I have a reasonably controlled environment that I can have someone switch amps based on the roll of the dice and let me evaluate via SBT.

That is a bucket that holds a lot more water.

In my experience, no matter what I may state, those who disagree will continue to maintain their stance. I have no problem with posts that state an opinion, preference, or experience that is different than my own.

It's not the statement. It is how it was derived.

And if that's the case, I'd rather go back to ignoring this forum. I hope that is not the unconscious will of this board.

The will of any subjectivists crowd is the willingness to abandon 'self authored faith' and enter into a bit more well conceived approach to honest with oneself and others about their evaluation approach. Sorry but throwing noodles against the wall and hoping enough stick will never be a metric at good contingent here will ever agree with.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But as of right now I may not even keep the onlyo but sell it when I get it back and now I start my research on receivers vs pre amps

Telling you, man. Denon 4311.

 

[Josuah]

You are asking for courtesy to be rendered in fog of procedure. What ever that procedure may be. No one knows.


...

It is at that point that I can at least ascertain that I have a reasonably controlled environment that I can have someone switch amps based on the roll of the dice and let me evaluate via SBT.

That is a bucket that holds a lot more water.

Your earlier post was also made within a "fog of procedure" as you describe it. I didn't see you back your claim with an extensive description of your setup and experimental process when you posted it.

As an owner or had in my possession no fewer than 8 brands of amps over the years (Behringer, Crown, Parasound, Adcom, Classe, NAD, Emotiva among them) I will say that when driven within an envelope that all the listed brands are comfortable in the differences weren't enough to worry about.

I do level match (sometimes using an SPL meter, sometimes by ear, and yes, my ear is good enough to pick up some common dB levels within 1-2dB) and there was only one difference in the chain at a time: the amplifier. I also make sure the input signal is within operational specifications (e.g. < 0.5Vrms as many amps ~125Wrms are listed with an input sensitivity a little over 1Vrms).

I will make no apologies for also being able to discern differences in quality when the volumes are not the same. I am sure you are able to discern when a note is 500ms long versus 100ms long, or contains more relative high frequency energy, regardless of volume as well.

I play regular content, both long form and short content with immediate switching for short-term memory comparisons, and from this primarily listen for smearing (time-wise) and clarity (detail). Generally only blatant differences are easily noticed by me during long form comparisons, and minute differences during short content comparisons. Certain content is more suitable for these tests while with other content it is not possible for me to hear any difference.

I do also stress components when testing them for specific purposes. For example, my home theater setup is designed to support reference level playback. So I want minimal distortion increase, if any, when playing back at those levels.

This is the same procedure I use for comparisons of any other gear, such as speakers/headphones, pre-amps, and DACs.

Now I hope my bucket will have water in it for several years, so I don't need to refill it every time I post something where I say "I could not hear any difference between A and B".

 

[Josuah]

So what is the difference from a high end receiever $1000-$2000 vs a pre pro and an amp? Im going to get an amp anyways at some point.

The primary benefit of going with separates is being able to mix and match. Plus, it's easier to get a beefy home theater amp (e.g. 7x200W) in a separate box (and for less money in some cases) than one built into a receiver.

You might find yourself keeping a high quality amp that you're happy with for many years, while upgrading your processor more frequently if you want to improve the sound quality or add features.

 

[Hostility]

The primary benefit of going with separates is being able to mix and match. Plus, it's easier to get a beefy home theater amp (e.g. 7x200W) in a separate box (and for less money in some cases) than one built into a receiver.

You might find yourself keeping a high quality amp that you're happy with for many years, while upgrading your processor more frequently if you want to improve the sound quality or add features.

thats what i was thinking, it seems to be almost the same price if you get a pre amp and an amp. To be honest i dont even use all the bells and whistles on the new units, i only use it for xbox, and BD's, and i only use DD, DTS master HD. But again ill have to look into how much each path will cost me.

 

[Josuah]

thats what i was thinking, it seems to be almost the same price if you get a pre amp and an amp. To be honest i dont even use all the bells and whistles on the new units, i only use it for xbox, and BD's, and i only use DD, DTS master HD. But again ill have to look into how much each path will cost me.

I don't use many bells and whistles either on my processor either.

I primarily purchased the Marantz AV8003 for its sound quality. Second was its support for EQ. Otherwise it's pretty much a physically large A/V switcher. It can't even decode HD audio while applying Audyssey EQ at the same time, so i have my PS3 decode it and output LPCM.

And there isn't a receiver out there that can provide enough power for my home theater setup anyway.

 

[jinjuku]

Your earlier post was also made within a "fog of procedure" as you describe it. I didn't see you back your claim with an extensive description of your setup and experimental process when you posted it.

What claims? In the amps I have tested I couldn't tell nor recall a discernible difference. Awfully hard to prove a negative.

The only differences are when one amp ran out of steam. That would be the Parasound vs Crown. The Crown just had more head room. Also both my HCA 1000A's would emit a sound out of the ribbons on my Statements when you put your ear near them. But not at listening position. I was able to tell that blind 10/10 times.

I do level match (sometimes using an SPL meter, sometimes by ear, and yes, my ear is good enough to pick up some common dB levels within 1-2dB) and there was only one difference in the chain at a time: the amplifier. I also make sure the input signal is within operational specifications (e.g. < 0.5Vrms as many amps ~125Wrms are listed with an input sensitivity a little over 1Vrms).

I will make no apologies for also being able to discern differences in quality when the volumes are not the same. I am sure you are able to discern when a note is 500ms long versus 100ms long, or contains more relative high frequency energy, regardless of volume as well.

I play regular content, both long form and short content with immediate switching for short-term memory comparisons, and from this primarily listen for smearing (time-wise) and clarity (detail). Generally only blatant differences are easily noticed by me during long form comparisons, and minute differences during short content comparisons. Certain content is more suitable for these tests while with other content it is not possible for me to hear any difference.

I do also stress components when testing them for specific purposes. For example, my home theater setup is designed to support reference level playback. So I want minimal distortion increase, if any, when playing back at those levels.

This is the same procedure I use for comparisons of any other gear, such as speakers/headphones, pre-amps, and DACs.

Now I hope my bucket will have water in it for several years, so I don't need to refill it every time I post something where I say "I could not hear any difference between A and B".

I would like to know what amps. This is also ripe for a reasonably designed SBT with you as the participant and someone else as the administrator.

There is every possibility out there that there is a dud or poorly designed amp. Part of having a consistent test methodology is so it can be documented and researched for the difference. Please don't take any of this as my not wanting to get at the root of truth here. It is very much about it. I just can not take sides with anecdotal accounts.

I'm not even saying that amps can't have a different sound. I simply haven't heard ones that playing in a 'no breaking of the sweat' way bring a night and day difference. I also haven't heard every amp under the sun.

I'll let everyone know how the AB International amp goes.