Amps vs recievers

[DS-21]

How about instead of explaining the entire process by which I may have performed an A/B comparison of two pieces of gear, you assume I'm a rational, intelligent being who is capable of making actual decisions that are have some basis in truth.

The rest of your posts in this thread do not support that assumption. Sorry.

I am also confident I can tell the difference between the sound of a trumpet and a flute, even if I am not performing a DBT and haven't level matched the musicians' lungs.

Point being? If you think the differences between competently designed and non broken audio amplifiers are remotely in the same class as the differences between a trumpet and a flute, then....well, that's the kind of thing that makes the assumption you asked us to make about you simply untenable.

I do level match (sometimes using an SPL meter, sometimes by ear, and yes, my ear is good enough to pick up some common dB levels within 1-2dB)

To put it another way, you don't level match with sufficient precision to remove small broadband level variances as a factor.

Try matching voltage at the amp terminals next time, at a few frequencies. You'll get a real level match that way, not a half-hearted hack of one.

This is the same procedure I use for comparisons of any other gear, such as speakers/headphones, pre-amps, and DACs.

Surely you don't really put speakers/headphones in the same category as amps/preamps/DACs in terms of sonic variance.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are aware that 200W is just a little more than a 1.5dB difference in headroom compared to 135W, right?

I'm not 100% looking to make it louder, but read so often that the sound crisps up an gets cleaner. I highly doubt that 135 watts is coming out off all 5 speakers.

But as of right now I may not even keep the onlyo but sell it when I get it back and now I start my research on receivers vs pre amps[/QUOTE]

Well, I would say that that would apply only to that 1.5 dB spl demand beyond that 135 watt amp. After all, that amp is rated at 135 watts at some good THD specs I bet that is most likely below threshold audibility. Boy, that would be very loud indeed and not sure you may tell under those conditions.

 

[PENG]

Some are significant enough to the point of making it much easier to understand speech with one amp versus another.

I also don't have any issue with someone stating their opinions and I do believe it is possible that even well designed amps operating within their limits might sound different to the point it is detectable by certain gifted people.

Again, I just find it hard to believe such differences can be as much as the way you described here, as well as those who described the differences as "day and night". There really isn't must secret left in the design/build of amps, so for manufacturers to all claim competent design for linearity, flat frequency response, overall accuracy, distortion well below the point of human perception etc., yet they could sound so different, to the point some are making speech not as easy to understand, defy science, and common sense. Now if there are qualifications/details provided that can explain the comparison results then it would be a different story.

 

[GranteedEV]

As counterpoint, I've done comparisons with amps within their rated power (for example, spec'ed at a max of 150Wrms and running them at 25Wrms)

Music can have dynamic range as high as 20-30db. RMS does not have nearly the same crest factor. 25 watt average levels can easily require dynamic peaks in the 1kW range. A 125w amp woiuld only deliver around 160w dynamic peaks, and that's into an 8 ohm load, when speakers are most of the time at least 4 ohm.

Level matching with an SPL meter is nonsense. You need levels matched within 0.1db and it's not as easy as just setting the gain dial.

 

[PENG]

Music can have dynamic range as high as 20-30db. RMS does not have nearly the same crest factor. 25 watt average levels can easily require dynamic peaks in the 1kW range. A 125w amp woiuld only deliver around 160w dynamic peaks, and that's into an 8 ohm load, when speakers are most of the time at least 4 ohm.

Level matching with an SPL meter is nonsense. You need levels matched within 0.1db and it's not as easy as just setting the gain dial.

I would use music that has known low dynamic range and would run the test objects at less than 2W average (sorry, I am too black and white to use the term RMS for power), to further minimize running into headroom limit related issues.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
I do level match (sometimes using an SPL meter, sometimes by ear, and yes, my ear is good enough to pick up some common dB levels within 1-2dB) and there was only one difference in the chain at a time: the amplifier. I also make sure the input signal is within operational specifications (e.g. < 0.5Vrms as many amps ~125Wrms are listed with an input sensitivity a little over 1Vrms).

Well, you may be using these procedures so it is no wonder you hear what you claim to hear. Your protocol is flawed, period. Defending it is useless.

I will make no apologies for also being able to discern differences in quality when the volumes are not the same.

Well, that is a claim but no evidence has been presented that you can.

I am sure you are able to discern when a note is 500ms long versus 100ms long, or contains more relative high frequency energy, regardless of volume as well.

Irrelevant argument.

I play regular content, both long form and short content with immediate switching for short-term memory comparisons, and from this primarily listen for smearing (time-wise) and clarity (detail). Generally only blatant differences are easily noticed by me during long form comparisons, and minute differences during short content comparisons. Certain content is more suitable for these tests while with other content it is not possible for me to hear any difference.

But your protocol for the comparison is flawed. How do you know what you think you perceive?

This is the same procedure I use for comparisons of any other gear, such as speakers/headphones, pre-amps, and DACs.

Yes, with the same flawed protocol.

 

[PENG]

Well, you may be using these procedures so it is no wonder you hear what you claim to hear. Your protocol is flawed, period. Defending it is useless.

Well, that is a claim but no evidence has been presented that you can.
Irrelevant argument.


But your protocol for the comparison is flawed. How do you know what you think you perceive?


Yes, with the same flawed protocol.

Your post is so funny I laugh so hard it hurts. I hope this is enough for him for at least a full year before the it gets debated again with the same points.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Your post is so funny I laugh so hard it hurts. ....

Well, who said this place cannot be entertaining? I am practicing for an stand-up gig

 

[CadenceSound]

I don't use many bells and whistles either on my processor either.

I primarily purchased the Marantz AV8003 for its sound quality. Second was its support for EQ. Otherwise it's pretty much a physically large A/V switcher. It can't even decode HD audio while applying Audyssey EQ at the same time, so i have my PS3 decode it and output LPCM.

And there isn't a receiver out there that can provide enough power for my home theater setup anyway.

Same here...I always tell people, if your going to use most of the features on receiver, go for it. But if you just want some clean sound, with lots of head-room..Raw Amp all the way.