Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes, but my hump is above the subwoofer crossover frequency...
While that's true your subs are still active in that range and with room gain being non linear (I think) and room modes being non linear (I'm certain) their position can still be a factor in that peak/null you have.

Try for an asymmetrical placement of the subs as much as your mans will allow and try pulling the mains off the side walls too. How about taking the measurements like 1' behind or 1' ahead of your listening position and maybe moving that?

What are you using to measure response?

You may be best off with finding a piece of equipment that will allow you control of that peak and leave everything as is. I'm pretty sure TLS would know of a device that can do that and since you're in Canada it won't cost too much. :rolleyes: :D
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
.....You may be best off with finding a piece of equipment that will allow you control of that peak and leave everything as is......
Wouldn't it be nice if someone invented an 'In Store Kiosk' that could be used by men, women, and children of all ages, to help find the perfect speaker.
Just sayin.
:D
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
While that's true your subs are still active in that range and with room gain being non linear (I think) and room modes being non linear (I'm certain) their position can still be a factor in that peak/null you have.

Try for an asymmetrical placement of the subs as much as your mans will allow and try pulling the mains off the side walls too. How about taking the measurements like 1' behind or 1' ahead of your listening position and maybe moving that?

What are you using to measure response?

You may be best off with finding a piece of equipment that will allow you control of that peak and leave everything as is. I'm pretty sure TLS would know of a device that can do that and since you're in Canada it won't cost too much. :rolleyes: :D
Who are you and what did you do with Alex?:cool:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Who are you and what did you do with Alex?:cool:
No kidding.

GN, you might try taking the measurements with one sub turned off and then with the other turned off to see which sub gives you the flattest response. Then stack the poorly performing sub on top of the sub with the better performance. Then see how that looks with both subs 'on'.

Thank goodness it's all behind a false wall because all that lack of symmetry I know for you is a deal breaker.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
While that's true your subs are still active in that range and with room gain being non linear (I think) and room modes being non linear (I'm certain) their position can still be a factor in that peak/null you have.
Yeah, I realize that there's a slope to the x-over and the subs will still have some output above the x-over frequency. But, I tried measurements with the subs alone, mains alone and subs & mains together. I only get that peak when the mains are on. The subs don't exacerbate the problem when they are on with the mains. I'm just using my Rives test tone CD right now and although it's just 1/3 octave tones, it's good enough to pinpoint that hump. I've downloaded some 1/6 octave tones and I'll narrow down the frequency response a bit further, later on.

Try for an asymmetrical placement of the subs as much as your mans will allow and try pulling the mains off the side walls too. How about taking the measurements like 1' behind or 1' ahead of your listening position and maybe moving that?
I'm quite limited in placement of the mains and the subs. Permanent placement will have to be behind the false wall. I've tried moving the mains laterally, but it doesn't seem to make much difference to the problem frequency. It's the distance from the front wall that's the culprit. I've placed the subs in the corners with the mains behind the screen, close to the frame. And, although that gives the mains a bit of distance from the side wall, they're only about 7' apart then - which is pretty close when you consider that the couch is about 12' from the screen. I've also placed them behind the false wall outboard of the screen frame, which gives me more separation, but then they're only about 7" - 8" from the sidewall. In that placement the distance between the side and front walls is almost identical, which is not a good thing, as you know. Those are basically my only options with mains placement.

I've tried placing the subs in the corners, as well as at 1/4 distance from the sidewalls and although it makes a difference, I have to say that I haven't really concentrated on fine-tuning that placement, as the problem with the mains has taken precedence. They are two different brands, which I'm sure doesn't help, but I will be building a pair of identical subs later. So, I don't think I'm going to put a priority on sub placement right now.

I expect that permanent placement will be mains behind the screen, with subs between them. That will keep the subs at 1/4 distance from the sidewalls and free up the corners for floor-to-ceiling bass traps.

As for taking measurements ahead and behind the present listening position, I don't think I'll bother with that. For one thing, moving the couch back will put it even with the surrounds, which I'd rather not do. I can't move the surrounds back, because one of them would then be in front of a hallway. I don't think I can move the couch forward, because SWMBO doesn't want to sit that close to the screen.:rolleyes: I might be able to sneak the couch a little bit closer when she's not looking, but not very much. Anyway, right now, the couch position isn't a big factor. I mean, that peak is 18db and you can hear it throughout the house, so moving the couch isn't going to help much - if at all. After I try some other measures, I can take another look at that.

I'll probably try REW at some point, but having looked at the guide for using it - ADHD will kick in before I get through the first page.:( The Dayton Omnimic looks appealing except the price is way out of line and it's more limited than REW.

Right now, wall treatment is a no-brainer. So, I'll go with that first, then see what else I need to do after that.

Thanks for the advice.:) If you can think of any other suggestions, don't hold back.:D
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
No kidding.

GN, you might try taking the measurements with one sub turned off and then with the other turned off to see which sub gives you the flattest response. Then stack the poorly performing sub on top of the sub with the better performance. Then see how that looks with both subs 'on'.

Thank goodness it's all behind a false wall because all that lack of symmetry I know for you is a deal breaker.
Hmmm, something to consider................................................................

.........Nah, I'll just build new ones instead.:D
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the detailed reply. Yeah, the absorption panels behind the speakers would mimic more distance from the back wall. I'm pretty familiar with the Rives Test CD 2 and I would put more stock in your subjective observation of the peak not sounding right because of frequency specific comb filtering effects.

I don't get how your speakers are responsible for the 100 Hz peak when you tried crossing at 120 Hz and the result was still unchanged. Wouldn't you have to rerun YPAO with every xo and position change and then test with Rives to see a the new curve. It's a lot of work and it's not like you get extra credit for doing it.

I think I saw one of those Omnimic's in action and they're like $300. I forget what software the guy was using. That 100 Hz spike might be your speakers. I don't know what kind you have. It also might be that a part of your structure gets excited by that frequency considering that you can hear it throughout the whole house. It's an interesting problem and I'm looking forward to seeing a resolution to it.

Once again I'll say to run the test tones with the subs isolated to see if one is better than the other and test in front and maybe to the side of the primary listening position as that can have an effect but that's just my superstitious voodoo. I make mistakes all the time when trying to do that and sometimes only find the error months down the road when I retest but the last time I went to EQ and level match everything I got it 100% ... I'm certain of it this time.

Happy measuring and try not to drive the wife crazy with test tones. They all seem to hate that.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for the detailed reply. Yeah, the absorption panels behind the speakers would mimic more distance from the back wall. I'm pretty familiar with the Rives Test CD 2 and I would put more stock in your subjective observation of the peak not sounding right because of frequency specific comb filtering effects.
Well, the peak was clearly audible and quite obnoxious - that's what prompted me to run the test tones. It was annoying when listening at even moderate volumes.

I don't get how your speakers are responsible for the 100 Hz peak when you tried crossing at 120 Hz and the result was still unchanged. Wouldn't you have to rerun YPAO with every xo and position change and then test with Rives to see a the new curve. It's a lot of work and it's not like you get extra credit for doing it.
I didn't understand it either. Maybe it's because I forgot to re-run YPAO with each change in x-over frequency.:eek: You're right about one thing - it's a lot of work and I was pressed for time, because I have to shut down when the girls are home.:rolleyes:

I think I saw one of those Omnimic's in action and they're like $300. I forget what software the guy was using.
Yeah, the price is pretty steep - and we don't get the free shipping up here!:mad:

That 100 Hz spike might be your speakers. I don't know what kind you have. It also might be that a part of your structure gets excited by that frequency considering that you can hear it throughout the whole house. It's an interesting problem and I'm looking forward to seeing a resolution to it.
They're Paradigm Monitor 9's. When I say it's audible throughout the house, that might be a slight exageration. Certainly, when my wife gets on the treadmill, she needs to turn the volume up a bit, because of the noise from her walking (Run? :rolleyes: She doesn't like to sweat.:rolleyes:) When I get on, I use earphones, because running makes a lot of noise and I'd have to turn the volume up more than the girls could tolerate. Anyway, under those conditions, one can hear that peak upstairs in the kitchen. I doubt that it's the structure becoming excited. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the front wall is a concrete basement wall and it can't really "bleed" that excess low frequency energy very well, so that it gets reflected back into the room to a greater extent than say, a wood framed wall?

Once again I'll say to run the test tones with the subs isolated to see if one is better than the other and test in front and maybe to the side of the primary listening position as that can have an effect but that's just my superstitious voodoo. I make mistakes all the time when trying to do that and sometimes only find the error months down the road when I retest but the last time I went to EQ and level match everything I got it 100% ... I'm certain of it this time.
If time permits, perhaps I'll try what you suggest. But it'll have to be a bit further down the list of priorities. Not only do I need to get some wall treatments put up, I have to:
1) Build a coffee table with drawers for DVD/BD storage. I cut the rough boards to rough length last weekend. I'll joint them and run 'em through the thickness planer next weekend.
2) Paint the main floor ceiling.
3) Build my subwoofers.
4) Build a new shed.
5) Build a combination bunkbed/desk for my daughter, which she asks about every other day.:rolleyes:

Those are just the things I can think of right now. You get the picture....

Anyway, I'm wondering whether to go with 24" Safe N' Sound, or the 16 " for the bass traps. I'll be doing the "superchunk" type trap. The 24" will make a substantially thicker trap, but is it necessary? :confused:
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Sounds like you have quite the handful with the "girls" of the house. They dont seem to let you do much of what you would like to. Sorry to hear that!!
I dont know if i could handle that...we all need our space & personal interest time!! But then again, "happy wife happy life!"...D@MN IT!! :)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Sounds like you have quite the handful with the "girls" of the house. They dont seem to let you do much of what you would like to. Sorry to hear that!!
I dont know if i could handle that...we all need our space & personal interest time!! But then again, "happy wife happy life!"...D@MN IT!! :)
Well, my daughter isn't the real problem. My wife is the one who must be placated. It's not so much that I can't do what I want - she has acquiesced to most of my wants/needs. She just does not like to hear test tones, which I can certainly understand - I wear ear defenders when I'm testing. So I have to do that when she's out. She also doesn't realize how time-consuming the process can be. She looks at me like I'm insane, when I tell her that moving a speaker just a few inches can make a significant difference. Women just do not seem to understand (or care) about such things. One of my problems is that I don't have any local friends who share my obsession - so I don't have anyone to back me up when I explain what I need to do.

Oh well, it's all good. I just have to work around the obstacles.:)
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
Wouldn't you have to rerun YPAO with every xo and position change and then test with Rives to see a the new curve.
The problem is that you can't "lock" the XO before YPAO is run. YPAO will change it during the calibration process. What you CAN do is leave the sub OFF during YPAO so that no EQ is applied during the cal, and see if that makes a difference at all.

Happy measuring and try not to drive the wife crazy with test tones. They all seem to hate that.
Mine was upstairs on the couch when I was running some 16-20 Hz tones, and yelled down "is that you doing that?" (because she thought the F18s might be flying around outside), and I said "yes", and she yelled back "do that again!!" :D
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
I didn't understand it either. Maybe it's because I forgot to re-run YPAO with each change in x-over frequency.:eek:
Not required...ypao will change it back.
Not only do I need to get some wall treatments put up, I have to:
1) Build a coffee table with drawers for DVD/BD storage. I cut the rough boards to rough length last weekend. I'll joint them and run 'em through the thickness planer next weekend.
2) Paint the main floor ceiling.
3) Build my subwoofers.
4) Build a new shed.
5) Build a combination bunkbed/desk for my daughter, which she asks about every other day.:rolleyes:
The priority of that list isn't right. My vote is:
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers

:)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The problem is that you can't "lock" the XO before YPAO is run. YPAO will change it during the calibration process. What you CAN do is leave the sub OFF during YPAO so that no EQ is applied during the cal, and see if that makes a difference at all.
I was wondering about that. I remember setting the x-over at 80Hz in the manual setup, running YPAO, then going back to manual setup and finding the x-over at 90Hz. I thought I was just going crazy. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "leave the sub OFF during YPAO so that no EQ is applied during the cal".:confused: Do you mean no EQ would be applied below x-over frequency? Could you elaborate on that?

Mine was upstairs on the couch when I was running some 16-20 Hz tones, and yelled down "is that you doing that?" (because she thought the F18s might be flying around outside), and I said "yes", and she yelled back "do that again!!"
Fat chance that I would get the same response.:rolleyes:
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The priority of that list isn't right. My vote is:
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers
1 - Build my subwoofers

:)
Unfortunately, I'm not married to you.



Wait a minute....let me rephrase that.....:eek:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
One of my problems is that I don't have any local friends who share my obsession - so I don't have anyone to back me up when I explain what I need to do.
Chances are that even if you did know somebody with all that stuff they would run the auto set up ... period. :rolleyes:

The problem is that you can't "lock" the XO before YPAO is run. YPAO will change it during the calibration process. What you CAN do is leave the sub OFF during YPAO so that no EQ is applied during the cal, and see if that makes a difference at all.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa ... you set the xo manually at 80 Hz and then in the options for auto set up you select 'Skip' or something like that in the Cross Over section as opposed to 'Check'. I would also play with the sub phase and retest that thinking it might have an impact on what happens at that trouble spot. YPAO doesn't check sub phase. I can't find the manual for my RX-V2600 right now and I'm assuming that the version of YPAO is the same.

You have to isolate the subs to level match them any way. I know some guys have success running different subs together but I think that's the lucky few that end up with some wild luck with room shape/sub placement/listening position etc. It's not reliable and Rives certainly isn't to be trusted for anything other than it's function as a very coarse tool ... but I still use it to make some pretty big cuts on my Infinity PS 10 subs and I isolate and EQ them separately and then isolate and level match them separately. Oh it's a process and a pain. I would not have gotten it to this point without having had brutally long stretches of collecting pogy.

I recommend getting a dog so that you have something to kick when your wife mistreats you. :eek: :D
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Chances are that even if you did know somebody with all that stuff they would run the auto set up ... period. :rolleyes:
You're probably right.:(

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa ... you set the xo manually at 80 Hz and then in the options for auto set up you select 'Skip' or something like that in the Cross Over section as opposed to 'Check'. I would also play with the sub phase and retest that thinking it might have an impact on what happens at that trouble spot. YPAO doesn't check sub phase. I can't find the manual for my RX-V2600 right now and I'm assuming that the version of YPAO is the same.
Bingo! I knew I wasn't doing something quite right.:rolleyes: I was setting up the subwoofer in manual setup, then forgot to set "skip" when I ran YPAO. So, it was undoing everything I'd already set. That's what happens when I'm pressed for time - I miss things like that.:eek: That said, I had run tones of the subs alone and the mains alone, so I'm quite confident that the problem resides with the mains. After I throw up the insulation, I'll remember this when I run YPAO again.

You have to isolate the subs to level match them any way. I know some guys have success running different subs together but I think that's the lucky few that end up with some wild luck with room shape/sub placement/listening position etc. It's not reliable and Rives certainly isn't to be trusted for anything other than it's function as a very coarse tool ... but I still use it to make some pretty big cuts on my Infinity PS 10 subs and I isolate and EQ them separately and then isolate and level match them separately. Oh it's a process and a pain.
If time allows, I'll do some more messing around with the subs, but it's not going to be a priority. If these were staying for the long term, I'd certainly put a lot of effort into getting the best possible performance out of them. I realize that Rives is a pretty blunt instrument, but after I finish the treatments, I'll go with some 1/6 tones and see if I can tweak things a bit more.

I would not have gotten it to this point without having had brutally long stretches of collecting pogy.
I might ask my boss to lay me off for a few weeks. Hmmm, perhaps I should be careful what I wish for.:eek:

I recommend getting a dog so that you have something to kick when your wife mistreats you.
Don't you start with that too! My daughter keeps asking for a dog and I keep putting her off. I just know who would end up walking it and picking up its t*rds.:rolleyes:
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
Don't you start with that too! My daughter keeps asking for a dog and I keep putting her off. I just know who would end up walking it and picking up its t*rds.:rolleyes:
Oh just bite the bullet. Get a male dog so you get some more testosterone in the house. Besides he will give you someone to b!tch to when the ladies are driving you nuts.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Oh just bite the bullet. Get a male dog so you get some more testosterone in the house. Besides he will give you someone to b!tch to when the ladies are driving you nuts.
Not you too!?:rolleyes::D Can I at least build my subs first!?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Dogs rule! You need a Great Dane!:cool:

My neice has one. The only animals that I've seen take bigger dumps had hooves.:eek: I know this because I helped my neice and her husband move into their house. The dog seemed keen on marking her new territory. Several times. And, not in the yard.:eek: It was like creeping through a minefield, while carrying furniture...
 
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