Entry Level Audiophile Quailty HT Setup

[soundandfury]

Hello All-

New guy here- please pardon me if I am posting in the wrong forum- I perused a bit and did not find an ideal place for this.

I am looking at setting up what will be my first HT arrangement. It has been quite a while since I had high quality audio gear (early 90s) and am looking to get a nice system built that will let me truly listen to music and also have the kids enjoy the film experience.

I have been aiming at something under $2k, but am having a hard time landing there. I made a trip to a dealer in town and he helped me spec this system out, which sounds great, but pushes me over that range quite a bit when all is said and done.

Have been thinking I may buy the system below in pieces, but it seems like I will definitely need the Sub and MMGs to start. Not sure how MMGs may sound without a sub.

I listened to this setup in the store and it was remarkable to my untrained ears- sounded like a true, broad live sound. Now I am dying to buy it, but the budget is a challenge.

Any suggestions you may have for an ideal setup, or on staging in these specific components would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance

-Dan


Receiver: Marantz SR506 ($750)

Speakers:
Front: Magnepan MMGs ($600)
Sub: REL T5 ($600)
Center: Magnepan MMGC ($350)
Rear Satellites: TBD- planning to add later- probably get something used/affordable

 

[j_garcia]

The 5006 is not sufficient for Maggies, IMO. They are low sensitivity and low impedance. You will most likely fry them. I do agree with going in pieces to get the system you are actually after, but if Maggies are on the list, you are going to need to spend a bit more on amplification.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Instead of 8" REL T5 - you should get Outlaw LFM-EX1 12" on sale now for $550
I think XPA-3 would do the trick, especially if you use regular speakers (vs plannars) for surrounds

 

[soundandfury]

Thanks for the inupt, jgarcia and boredsysadmin.

Any suggestions on a receiver that might be better in terms of power if I go with the Maggies? It seems like I should be able to get by without a separate power amp. I am concerned that will push me way out of my budget- was already higher than I wanted to be.

The dealer I visited is pretty solid and they were confident in the SR5006. I compared its specs with the Magnepan site and they seem to align pretty well.

I understand the power needs, but must admit I don't quite fathom the sensitivity and response details. I get that the MMGs are 'quick' and responsive by design, but not sure how the receiver factors in.

Not questioning your viewpoint, just trying to get a better understanding. I pasted the specs below for comparison.

Thanks again and appreciate your patience with my ignorance!

MMGs:

Freq. Resp. 50 - 24 kHz ±3 dB
Sensitivity 86dB / 500Hz / 2.83v
Impedance 4 Ohm

Marantz SR5006:

Usable Sensitivity: 1.2 μV (12.8 dBf) 18 μV
50 dB Quieting Sensitivity: MONO 2.8 μV (20.2 dBf)

Rated output: Front:
100 W + 100 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
Center:
100 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
Surround:
100 W + 100 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
Surround back:
100 W + 100 W (8 Ω, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The critical pieces of information you should be looking at are:
a) the Impedance - the MMG's are rated at 4 ohm - and the lower this number is - the harder for amp to drive them. Normal is 6 to 8ohm
b) Sensitivity - same as above and typical is 88-90db - note this is a logarithmic scale so 86 to 89db is a huge difference - it's twice the power and 150% louder

That said - very few receivers are rated to work with 4ohm speakers and certainly none in your budget unfortunately....

You could get a cheaper avr:
Marantz SR5004 90w X 7ch Home Theater Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

and look for solid amp. Emotiva XPA3 would be good, or possibly something solid from audiogon - like this unit:
Acurus 200 x3 power amplifier | Multi ch | AudiogoN

 

[Crackerballer]

Agreed, those 4 ohm speakers are going to tax that Marantz like crazy. I highly suggest reading here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/78161-better-2-channel-amp-than-behringer-a500-price.html

I ended up with a Crown XLS1000 for $266 NEW and then used my Onkyo pre-outs to run signal to it. Driving my two front channels off the amp has really opened my system up.

Another receiver you may consider is
Newegg.com - Pioneer VSX-1021-K 7.1-Channel A/V Receiver

It is on sale between now and 2/9 and is a lot of tech for the money. If I needed a backup, trust me I'd be all over it.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Agreed, those 4 ohm speakers are going to tax that Marantz like crazy. I highly suggest reading here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/78161-better-2-channel-amp-than-behringer-a500-price.html

I ended up with a Crown XLS1000 for $266 NEW and then used my Onkyo pre-outs to run signal to it. Driving my two front channels off the amp has really opened my system up.

Another receiver you may consider is
Newegg.com - Pioneer VSX-1021-K 7.1-Channel A/V Receiver

It is on sale between now and 2/9 and is a lot of tech for the money. If I needed a backup, trust me I'd be all over it.

Crown is surely a lot of amp for a little money, but as far as Pioneer - it is a lot of tech for the money, but absolutely useless for OP due to lack of pre-outs and weaker amp section.

 

[Crackerballer]

Crown is surely a lot of amp for a little money, but as far as Pioneer - it is a lot of tech for the money, but absolutely useless for OP due to lack of pre-outs and weaker amp section.

How did I miss that didn't have preouts? I assumed since MSRP was $600 it would. I stand corrected. OP, stick with the Marantz BoredSysAdmin suggested and splurge for the Crown or another similarly priced amp.

 

[GranteedEV]

a) the Impedance - the MMG's are rated at 4 ohm - and the lower this number is - the harder for amp to drive them. Normal is 6 to 8ohm

Ribbons like the MMGs are a pretty flat 4 ohms. Any amp that can't drive them to everyday levels just sucks. Like you said though, the low sensitivity does ask for more watts than the typical speaker, though.

My suggestion to the thread starter for what its worth, would be one of the SR5004 amps linked earlier, and one pair of these Philharmonics:

http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic1.html

It would only be two channel, but you can always add a center and some $200 surrounds once you're used to it. This open back design will give a live sound similar to what you heard from the magnepans. Sorry to say though, but it won't be entry level. It'll be pretty damn high end.

 

[jcl]

I like the sound of maggies too. Have looked into putting together a surround system but always went a different route.

The Yamaha Aventage avr line also has preouts. You missed the sales on the rx a700 & 800 when they were discontinued. Newegg currently has refurb 700s for $299 and 800s for $369.

For an amp you may find the emotiva mini-x is all you need - Emotiva Audio | mini-X a-100 Stereo Flex Amp
Although you may find that lacking in power.

One of the things that turned me off was the high roll off of the center speakers. I think the -3db point of the mmgc is 160hz. You'll want to make sure your sub will go up that high. That's also in the range where it's localizable so you may really want two subs in the end.

I'd suggest
1. Playing around at your dealer extensively before buying the center
2. Trying a phantom center with the mains first.

If you have the room some people like using another mmg as a center.

About the Crown amp - definitely consider pro amps they offer a good value. Just keep in mind that most are actively cooled and you may find you can hear the fans during quiet segments of movies or music. Google and do your research. There are many 'fan mods' that people document very well on the web.

 

[soundandfury]

Wow- you have all given me a lot to think about! Much obliged. I have a lot more homework to do.

I had hoped I could put something together that I could drive with just a decent receiver. Will explore some options for amps if I go with the MMGs. Those Philharmonics look sweet, but they are definitely not cheap. I will see if I can find a dealer in Chicago and take a listen.

If I may reframe my question out to the group:

If you had only $2k max to put together an entire home theater system (I have the tv and blue ray already), what would you buy?


Thanks again to everyone for your ideas!

-Dan

 

[sholling]

It helps to know room size but assuming a sealed small-medium sized (~2500cuft) room for a 2.0 system you might consider a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 bookshelves, a Rythmik FV12 subwoofer. You should be able to drive the Sierra-1s just fine with an Onkyo TX-NR709. That totals to about $2000.

If you want 5.1 I'd try to stretch the budget for Ascend Acoustics CMT-340SE bookshelves, a CMT-340SE center, and a pair of CBM-170SE bookshelves for surrounds for $1100 shipped. Add the Rythmik sub and the TX-NR709 and you're looking at $2050 plus shipping.

I own Sierra-1s and powered them with the older version of that Onkyo for a couple of years and it did well. I've also owned the CMT340SEs and they are even easier to drive, they also sound great for a $500/pr speaker.

 

[agarwalro]

What is it about the MMG's sound do you like? Have you listened to any others and developed a preference? There are so many options in your budget.

Are you looking for 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 or 7.1 in the $2000 budget?

 

[soundandfury]

What is it about the MMG's sound do you like? Have you listened to any others and developed a preference? There are so many options in your budget.

Are you looking for 2.0, 2.1, 5.1 or 7.1 in the $2000 budget?

I realize it's a broad ask. A few more details below:

I am looking for a 5.1 system. The room space is small-medium. My media area is about 11 by 20, but is partitioned as part of a much larger room. 7 foot ceilings and carpet throughout.

I listened to a number of smaller systems, including the Definitive Tech. 600 and a few others. Have not listened to a lot of standard/larger-sized floor-standers. The better quality small speaker systems sound good, but just felt kind of constipated.

The Magnepans blew me away because they had such distinct, articulate sound. They just didn't sound at all like sound coming from a box and were airy, energetic and exciting- 'live excitement' so to speak.

I am looking for a setup I can listen to music on quite a bit and also let the kids enjoy movies. My musical tapes are all over the map, from guitar-driven to jazz and classical. My boy listens to hip hop, but I am after pure sound rather than the ability to set off the neighbor's car alarm. I would actually like a setup that does not bleed to our upper level too much as the house is fairly small and bedrooms are above the media area.

Thanks again to all for such engaged discussion. I generally avoid internet boards, but this has been genuinely educational!

-Dan

 

[TLS Guy]

I realize it's a broad ask. A few more details below:

I am looking for a 5.1 system. The room space is small-medium. My media area is about 11 by 20, but is partitioned as part of a much larger room. 7 foot ceilings and carpet throughout.

I listened to a number of smaller systems, including the Definitive Tech. 600 and a few others. Have not listened to a lot of standard/larger-sized floor-standers. The better quality small speaker systems sound good, but just felt kind of constipated.

The Magnepans blew me away because they had such distinct, articulate sound. They just didn't sound at all like sound coming from a box and were airy, energetic and exciting- 'live excitement' so to speak.

I am looking for a setup I can listen to music on quite a bit and also let the kids enjoy movies. My musical tapes are all over the map, from guitar-driven to jazz and classical. My boy listens to hip hop, but I am after pure sound rather than the ability to set off the neighbor's car alarm. I would actually like a setup that does not bleed to our upper level too much as the house is fairly small and bedrooms are above the media area.

Thanks again to all for such engaged discussion. I generally avoid internet boards, but this has been genuinely educational!

-Dan

I think you can go with your original plan. Although the Magnaplanar speakers are 4 ohm, actually a little less, there is more to a loudspeaker load than just impedance. There are a lot of 8 ohm speakers, probably most, more likely to blow your receiver than the Magnaplanars.

Those speakers present a very even load that is almost purely resistive in nature. There are no horrid negative phase angles between voltage and current so prevalent in multiway moving coil speakers. Those are real amp killers.

Planar speakers like you have selected are some what of an acquired taste. But you are right they are very articulate and have no bass resonances coupled with an excellent frequency response. They certainly sound an awful lot better than any other speakers mentioned in this thread with the exception probably of the Philharmonics.

The downside of the Magnaplanars as with all large flat panel ribbons and electrostatics, is that they beam and have a a narrow sweet spot. They are room sensitive and placement is crucial, because of the figure of eight radiation pattern. Unless they are huge, then membrane speakers are very inefficient in the bass with cancellation by sound waves cancelling because of radiation pattern and finite width of a reasonably sized panel.

So if you like what you heard go right ahead with your original plan and just be moderate with you volume levels, until you have saved enough for a heftier amp.

Make sure you get a low Q sub. If you get a ported sub, it will blend very badly with those speakers. You need a good sealed sub with a very tight bass. I would cross to the sub as high as 100 Hz with those speakers, so you will need a forward facing sub and one that has a frequency response out to 200 Hz. I would start by placing it right by one of the speakers. As funds permit I would purchase a second sub for the other speaker.

Magnaplanar have been around for years and have had a deserved steady following. They really look after their customers.

I can tell you another thing, ever since Peter Walker introduced the Quad ESL in 1957 we have all been busting a gut trying to make speakers with the open, articulate and uncolored sound of planer speakers, without their disadvantages, especially poor bass response and limited sound pressure levels. It takes a really expensive complex moving coil speaker system to match planars in their strengths. I think I have finally got there, but it took about 50 years!

 

[agarwalro]

That's a start with some concrete direction.

It could be that the Def Tech setup was not properly configured. They're not that bad . That said, their "airiness" would be nowhere near the Magnepans. The MMG's are bipolar speakers, meaning their rear energy wave is considerably more than that of conventional box speakers. The only issue with bipolar speakers is that they need minimum 2-4 ft. behind them and are placement sensitive.

IMO, forget the 5.1 for now, go with Grant's recommendation for Philharmonic speakers. Run them 2.0 for now and add stereo subs later.

 

[jcl]

Here's a link to the measurements section of the HomeTheater review of a mmgw / mmgc system. If you wanted an all Maggie system the mmgw might be what you'd want for surrounds with your mmg mains. You can see though that the bass of the mmgw and the mmgc starts to roll off pretty high. The mmgc has a -10db of 160 hz.

Magnepan MMG Speaker System Measurements | Home Theater

The original Magnepan User group site hasn't been updated in a long while, but still is a good resource for things Magnepan. It 'moved' to the Planar speaker Asylum and more current discussion is there. Just beware audio foolery.

 

[TLS Guy]

Here's a link to the measurements section of the HomeTheater review of a mmgw / mmgc system. If you wanted an all Maggie system the mmgw might be what you'd want for surrounds with your mmg mains. You can see though that the bass of the mmgw and the mmgc starts to roll off pretty high. The mmgc has a -10db of 160 hz.

Magnepan MMG Speaker System Measurements | Home Theater

The original Magnepan User group site hasn't been updated in a long while, but still is a good resource for things Magnepan. It 'moved' to the Planar speaker Asylum and more current discussion is there. Just beware audio foolery.

You have a point here. I had forgotten that there is no bass module to go with the little MMGC, like there is with the CCR.

So for HT I think the MMG system is a bit of a mess on reflection.

You have to select subwoofer no on the receiver. You must have a receiver with pre outs. You must have a receiver that does not have a global crossover.

You have to set the mains to large and the crossover to the MMGC at 100 or higher. You must have a sub with buffered right and left inputs.

You have to connect the sub to the right and left main preouts and use the crossover in the sub, which likely needs crossing over closer to 160 Hz than 100 Hz. In that case you need to spec a sub with a frequency response to 320 Hz which would be a rare animal. At those frequencies 2 subs would be mandatory, or the system would be unbalanced.

I see a couple of problems with this for HT. I think running small planar speakers full range in HT is asking for trouble.

The next issue the low frequency effects are not used, and this will bypass the effects flags.

All this is going to blow his budget. I don't think you can put together an audiophile 5.1 system for 2K. If he wants quality for now he will be limited to 2.0.

The OP seems to like planar speakers over monopoles, and quite a few people do.

In which case he should move up from the MMG and go with one of the higher end Magnaplanar systems, so he can use their CCR system for the center. This center is a two box system and may make TV integration difficult.

Quad maintain their electrostatics perform well as HT speakers, and say a center should never be used, and to use a phantom center.

Magnaplanar say their speakers do not work well without a center.

However the Quad ESL is a very unusual planar, with timed delays built into the diaphragm so the membrane does not move as a unified front but as ripples, to make a dipolar spherical radiation pattern. This really cuts down the beaming. In my view Quad ESLs are easily the best planars available, but well outside the OPs budget.

I don't think it is worth the expense to put together an HT system round the MMGs unfortunately.

I guess the OP should listen to some good monopoles, and also other Magnaplanars.

I generally find people at first go round who are attracted to planar speakers are discriminating and highly intolerant of faults far too prevalent in the vast majority of speakers on offer.

So unfortunately the OP is going to have conflict between desires, preferences and budget.

 

[Rickster71]

The Magnaplanars are a great choice if you aren't married.
If you are, I'd make sure your wife know they will need to be 'approximately'
4-ft off rear and side walls.
If you're not married, enjoy those speakers while you can.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Magnaplanars are a great choice if you aren't married.
If you are, I'd make sure your wife know they will need to be 'approximately'
4-ft off rear and side walls.
If you're not married, enjoy those speakers while you can.

You are right on with those remarks. There are a myriad very good reasons why planar speakers have occupied such a small niche of the speaker market. A pity, because they are so beguiling.

However placement/room issues, beaming, low sensitivity, poor bass response and inability to produce concert hall levels for a lot of materiel, consign them to the interest label. However I can understand why they have a loyal following.