96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
Room is 18'x25'x9'.
Want to do 2 subs right now, then eventually add 2 more.
I'm leaning towards the
Epik Empire Duals-$1500 for 1000 watts and 2 subs, seems like the best bang for the buck.
other options are;
Rythmik F15, 1 sub is $1300 and 600 watts, 2 would be $2600.
HSU VTF-15, 1 sub is $879 and 350 watts, 2 would be $1760.
PSB 500, $???, only a 12"
SVS PC13 Ultra, $1700 is the most expensive out of the group, but also seems to be the most powerful and most high tech.
I mostly listen to music, but I also do a lot of movies, so about 60/40.

thnx
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Well, you're over 4000 cubic feet already. Is that room sealed? Or does it have openings to any other space as well?

Regardless, you need some very capable output.

I know I'll get the Epik fans all saying how great Epik's subs are. Lots of people do seem to like them. I'm not a fan. I simply want to give you the other side of the opinion spectrum because I fell into the same hype back when I was looking to upgrade my HSU VTF-3 MK2 (a sub that I still use and enjoy very much in my bedroom, by the way). I fell into the Epik hype and bought a pair of Epik Sentinel subs, sight unheard. They weren't "bad" subs, don't get me wrong. They had the one key feature I was originally looking for, which is that they played lower and output higher SPL in the really low 20-25Hz range than my VTF-3 MK2. But they also gave up the tight transient response and had too much overhang, which made complex bass passages "smear" and turned anything other than very simple bass into a bit of a mess.

I also think the amps that Epik uses are pretty poor. The power cords fit loose, they have an operational buzz that you can pick out if you're seated close enough, they get warm - sometimes hot. And they're just plain cheap. Epik should be using BASH amps at their price point. Instead, they went for something even cheaper to try and hit their price points.

Are they a good deal? It depends. They don't even sell ported subs anymore - only their two twin opposed models. Some folks think they sound better than their old models. Some folks are reporting the same sort of overall compromise that I heard with their old models - good extension, no questions there, but not the greatest transient response. Not bad. Just not the greatest.

So I'm not saying Epik is a "bad" choice. Let's be clear about that. And if you're upgrading from a HTiB sub, I'm certain an Epik sub would blow you away and really impress you, which I think is what happens a lot on various forums where lots of people hype Epik so much.

My whole thing is, just don't fall too hard into the hype trap. If you blindly follow the fans, Epik's subs seem like the best deal on Earth! But if you listen and compare, there IS a reason why the price is so low. Higher quality components DO cost more money. So just take notice that you're looking at two 15" drivers and a high wattage sub in a large box for a very low price. Is there high value in that? Of course. But it's also a very good indication that the drivers and amp are lower priced, lower quality parts. It's a design choice and a marketing choice. It's a perfectly fine choice. But just be aware that you're not magically getting way more than you're paying for. Prices are EXTREMELY competitive in the online subwoofer world and Epik isn't magically undercutting everyone else somehow. They're limiting their costs with the parts that they use, which is fine. It's just not something that lives up to the crazy hype that you find on forums from the Epik fans and you need to have your expectations in the right place is all.

Personally, Epik wouldn't be my choice. It's perfectly ok if you want to ignore me though :)

On the other end of the spectrum, I'm extremely impressed with the SVSound Ultra subs, but they ARE expensive. Personally, I think they're a tremendous value. Again, you look at the quality of the parts that are used and it's somewhat of the opposite case from Epik where the driver and amp in the SVSound Ultra subs are so high quality that the price is actually crazy low for what you're getting. An Ultra would have no problem at all with your room size and the quality of bass that it produces is second to none. The supreme control of the Ultra driver with the Sledge amp gives superb transient response and ridiculously low distortion. It's also impossible to bottom out, drive into high distortion or damage thanks to the impeccable engineering in those Sledge amps.

To be honest, I'm at the point now in my own listening where I find it somewhat difficult to be happy with anything less than the Ultra's quality. For that reason, if someone can afford an Ultra, I find it difficult to recommend going for anything less. But no lone sub can do what multiple subs can - which is offer the ability to create more even and uniform bass across multiple seats in a theater. A lone sub can be rather easily EQ'd and placed to provide very linear bass to a single "sweet spot" seat. But to get uniform bass across multiple seats takes two or more ideally placed subwoofers - usually with some EQ thrown in on top of that too ;)

Now one very good alternative that would fall within your price range would be a pair of SVSound PC12-Plus cylinder subs or SVSound's Legato package, which is a pair of PC12-Plus passive cylinder subs with a shared external 800 Watt Sledge amp. The SVSound Plus ported subs give up about 3dB across the entire frequency range in max output to the Ultra models. This doesn't seem like a whole lot, but it is twice the power, so it's not insignificant either! The Ultra models also provide slightly lower distortion and the slightest bit more control, but it's really, really close. The Plus models are a tremendous value and might really hold the key to getting what you're looking for at your price point. You should also be aware that you can lay the cylinder subs on their side with no problem. If there's an issue of placement options, it helps to know that the cylinder subs take up very little floor space when they're standing up, but that if you can't stand one up for some reason, you CAN lay it on its side without any danger or loss of performance.

Now, given your room size and the fact that movie performance is still a large consideration for you, I would personally lean strongly towards a ported sub. You're not going to get enough room gain with your room's size to even out a sealed sub that starts to roll off at 40Hz with a 2nd order slope as most do. A ported sub with a 20Hz or lower tuning will give you the extension that you'll want for movies. And you don't have to give up tight transient response and good control with a ported sub. You simply have to get a ported sub with a good enough driver and amp that control over the driver's movement isn't a problem!

Rythmik's ported FV15 and FV15HP are right up there with SVSound's Plus ported subs, IMO. You have to consider that SVSound includes shipping in their prices though. So once you throw in shipping, the price difference doesn't favor Rythmik anymore. It's splitting hairs between a PB12-Plus SVSound box and a Rythmik FV15HP really. Truly cannot go "wrong" with either!

I'm about to get in trouble with HSU VTF-15H fans too :p It's not my favorite. In fact, it's about the only HSU sub that I'm not really a fan of. I don't think HSU got the VTF-15H quite "right". Again, don't get me wrong, it's not a "bad" sub - not by any stretch! But it's just not quite what I would have hoped for from a big, 15" HSU ported sub. In MY listening, I heard a bit of a "hump" in the 40Hz-ish range. The Audioholics measurements don't really back me up on that, so it's possible I was off the mark with the particular setup that I was listening to. But then again, some VTF-15H owners report hearing something similar, so maybe I'm not crazy either :p

Where my listening and Audioholics' measurement line up perfectly is in hearing the deep 20-25Hz stuff roll-off at higher output levels. I just personally found it a little disappointing since I thought the big 15" driver might deliver more down there. It seems as though HSU stuck with a similar sort of extension as most of their other subs, which play really nicely down to 25Hz or so, but sort of drop off after that, especially when you crank up the volume and their somewhat lower Wattage BASH amps start to limit the output. I think that a lower tuning on the box and a more powerful amp would have really allowed the VTF-15H to perform to a higher level with that 15" driver they're using. It likely would have up'd the cost, but I personally think it would have been worth it.

So for me, I prefer the VTF-3 MK4. Full disclosure, I'm basing that on having heard the MK3 version, not the newest MK4. But there's nothing to indicate that the MK4 would have taken a step back in any way ;) I just personally prefer the overall balance and extension in the sound of the VTF-3 MK3/4. But that's when I'm considering its low price as well. I personally think the VTF-3 MK3/4 does really well when compared up against something like the SVSound PB12-NSD. They're at a similar price point and the SVSound NSD subs have just a tiny hint of overhang that lets other subs compete! But I wouldn't put a VTF-3 MK3/4 up against an SVSound Plus sub, and the price difference reflects that!

Just my opinion, but I think that for your room size, your taste in music and movies, your desire for multiple subs and your indicated budget, the SVSound ported Plus PB12-Plus, PC12-Plus cylinder or Legato system or the Rythmik FV15HP are your best choices. They hit the right balance, IMO, across the board for your situation.

Hope that helps! And I hope I don't tick off the Epik and VTF-15H fans too much because I DO think they're good subs. I just think they have some issues that I don't personally like and that I think make them not the very best choices when they go up against the competition. I don't "hate" them. They're just not what I would personally pick is all. And I just want to offer the "other side of the coin" as it were since they so often gut such high praise that I don't quite agree with is all :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Oh, one final thing - I would HIGHLY recommend that you get on the phone and talk with SVSound, Rythmik and HSU. They'll talk with you about your room and what you listen to and give you some very helpful advice. Of course, they'll recommend their own products, naturally :p But I think you'll be impressed with all three of those companies and get some good info from talking with them. It's never easy to spend this kind of money, especially when you're facing the possible return shipping fees on some big, heavy subwoofers if you don't like what you buy the first time! It's certainly best if you can get a couple of candidates in your house so that you can listen and compare for yourself. Nothing replaces that experience. But the above three companies, I've personally found to be very honest and knowledgeable about their products. Combine their info with the opinions you get here and you should be well on your way to getting the bass performance that you're really after!

Best of luck!
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
Awesome info, much appreciated. I won't say I have a limited budget, but I don't like to feel like I am throwing money away either, so i am always looking for a good deal, which isn't always the best way to do it. That said, your post has swayed me. I don't want to buy something I will regret buying later.
By the way, the room is a sealed. 1 double door entrance. I plan on filling it up with acoustic panels and bass traps, theater seating, curtains, lighting...blah blah. You get the picture. Oh, and it is, well, will be carpeted.
I realize that you get what you pay, and Epik may not be for me, especially since I am dumping a bunch of money in to building the room, I should make sure I get as much out of it as I can. So, after some back forth between the RA and SVS sites, I think I like the PC12 Plus, 4 of them. I did look at the Legato, but for $300 I get a second unshared amp! I'll def have to stew about it for a bit though, it usually takes me about a month to pull the trigger on something.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
...I think I like the PC12 Plus, 4 of them. I did look at the Legato, but for $300 I get a second unshared amp!
I'm with you on that. I want to like the Legato, but I just don't quite get it.

I don't know their policy now that they are under new ownership, but SVS used to give a 5% discount if you were a repeat customer or bought more than one sub. Definitely worth asking them about. I think if you were going to buy four of them, they'd cut you a deal.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
SVS does bring a lot to the table, but If you're looking for value, DIY will still be best bang for a buck and this design (see below) will probably trump most SVS offerings as far as output goes

Tuba HT

Original Tempest Classic 15" sub is apparently dead, but according to forums Dayton DVC 15 is almost perfect copy
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
SVS does bring a lot to the table, but If you're looking for value, DIY will still be best bang for a buck and this design (see below) will probably trump most SVS offerings as far as output goes

Tuba HT

Original Tempest Classic 15" sub is apparently dead, but according to forums Dayton DVC 15 is almost perfect copy
Great another option. j/k. Do you have to use that sub, or can you use a better one. Parts Exp. had a ton of offerings in the sub dept. Also, do you know what amp you use.

Has anyone on here built one of these? Any pics?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Great another option. j/k. Do you have to use that sub, or can you use a better one. Parts Exp. had a ton of offerings in the sub dept. Also, do you know what amp you use.

Has anyone on here built one of these? Any pics?
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/60906-tuba-folded-horn-ht-subwoofer-build.html
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/77482-tuba-ht-using-15-rss390ho-4-a.html


Oh, did I mentioned it is big? :rolleyes:
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm going to try to be a counter-weight to FirstReflection's lengthy reply.

The Empire has received very good reviews for sound quality by lots of owners, many of whom have owned subs by other well-regarded ID companies. Check out the Empire thread at AVSforum. As far as I know, it has been a fairly reliable sub too, I haven't read about too many amp failures regarding that model, to be contrary to FirstReflection's claims of cheap parts. On the other hand, I have read about enough amp failures from Epik's Legend to give me pause were I looking at that particular model.

I think it's worth taking a look at Josh Ricci's very thorough review of the Empire, in which he had a lot of praise for it. It doesn't have the flattest FR, but it doesn't do too badly at 20 hz and has lots of mid-bass and just prodigious amounts of upper bass output. At $900 shipped it is a hell of a value, and the discount you get with two is all the moreso.

As for the VTF15h, that is another excellent value, it has the output of the PB12-Plus but doesn't cost as much. It does not dig as deep as the SVS Plus subs do, with a 30 hz roll off as opposed to the Plus's 20 hz roll, but it has a relatively gradual roll off for a ported sub. You can compare their output curves here for the VTF15h and here for the Plus. Don't let the seemingly higher curves on the VTF15h graph fool you though, it is not actually getting louder than the Plus, the graphs are not based on an absolute reference point. The VTF15h does have a slight hump in its FR at 40 to 50 hz, but this would only ever be audible at the very limit of its performance, and even then only if you were specifically listening for it. Note that the VTF15h handles compression more evenly, an uptick in gain will result in greater output throughout the entire FR, not just above 35 hz which seems to be what happens in the higher ranges of the PB12's output.

On your budget though, it looks like you have the room to spend a bit more, so I might go with the PC12 Plus, there is no reason not to go for that extra bass extension if you can afford it. Four of those would make for a phenomenal bass setup.

Something else in a similar vein of the PC-12 Plus that might be worth looking at is the Elemental Designs P7-650. It will be cheaper than two PC12-Plus subs and I think would have even more output capability. I think it might be perfect for placing behind an acoustically transparent screen. Another sub that might be worth looking at is the Chase SS-18.2, it looks like it could have just huge amounts of output, and it is also cheaper than the PC12-Plus.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
I absolutely love my VTF-15H!!! Thats all im gonna say on that. :)

If i were to have 4 subs in one room i would go for 4 Cylinder subs in each corner. They take up such little floor space & 4 would not only look killer in each corner but 4 PB12/plus or 13/Ultras would be incredible!!

If you can fit 4 VTf-15Hs then by all means, because at $3600ish that would be very hard to beat!!

Why not save money, get more output & go quad 18" in an InfiniteBaffle Manifold? FI 18"s are only $239 each. A manifold takes up 0 space in the theater. However it does need an attic, crawl space or another room as its enclosure.

If you want to read about Epiks amp problem just Google: Epik Amplifier Problems.

I had a sub that used the same amps that Epik does. Cord fit loose, amp ran HOT & it eventually broke down. Had to send it back. It was under warranty but was still a headache. Who knows how long the new fix will last too. I cant recommend Epik from different things ive read. I cant comment on their audio quality.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yay!

I'm just happy that the various opinions and likes/dislikes are being shared in this thread without it getting all heated and argue-y like so many other forums and threads :D

I hate it when we fight :eek:

lol

Anywho, four PC12-Plus :eek:

Man-oh-man, that certainly gets a big ol' thumbs up from me! That's some rather stupendous bass output capability there!

I do have to admit, I know very little about the DIY options. I've never built a sub of my own - even just from a kit. I've no doubt at all that the cost savings can be substantial! The only thing I'll say though is that I just don't have the skill or knowledge to figure out things like optimal tuning or adjustments to the amp in order to compensate for the behavior of the driver. I'm assuming that a lot of the pre-packaged kits for subwoofers take that design stuff into account and are simply saving you money on labor and shipping. But then again, sometimes "kit" subs are very basic designs, made from "off the shelf" parts that aren't necessarily optimized for each other. I'm just saying that I'd want to really have all the knowledge to know exactly what I'm doing if I were to build my own sub! I don't, so haven't done it :p But I just look at the amp modifications and how things are adjusted in very fine detail to match up as well as possible with the driver, and things like the port design and weight distribution of the cabinet. All the repeated refinements that are made, not only to the design, but also to the manufacturing process. I look at that stuff from companies like SVSound and Rythmik - I'm just not sure at all that I'd trust myself to be able to put together a subwoofer myself that would perform just as well. But that's only 'cause I'm not a DIY guy and I always think it's super impressive when I see other people tackle this stuff on their own! For me though, I'm happy to just pay a few hundred extra to let the manufacturer take care of it :p Heck, I'd let the UPS guy place the sub for me too if I had any faith that he wouldn't kick a hole in it somehow :D
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Yay!

I'm just happy that the various opinions and likes/dislikes are being shared in this thread without it getting all heated and argue-y like so many other forums and threads :D

I hate it when we fight :eek:
Now that last statement is a flat out non truth. :p
Don't you let anyone think this forum can't nerd rage with the best of them. :D
Glad to know you guys recommend quality subs and not junk.
 
96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
Why not save money, get more output & go quad 18" in an InfiniteBaffle Manifold? FI 18"s are only $239 each. A manifold takes up 0 space in the theater. However it does need an attic, crawl space or another room as its enclosure.
That could be a third option for me. The SVS is still the most attractive to me right now. The Tuba is very do-able for me also since I have table saws, router, jigs, yadda yadda....Tuba times 4. Hmmmmmmmm.
My back wall could support the baffle, as it an over hang that comes up about 4 feet on the wall. But the sound would fill the rest of the house possibly, even at lower volumes, upsetting the spouse/mancave balance.
 
J

jjackkrash

Audioholic Intern
For the price of 4 PC12+'s it looks like you could get Two SubM HP's. I can't tell you which would be better but the SubM is worth a look, IMO.
 

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