Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[Solid-State]

Hi Well, I'm very near the Washington area, but it's Washington D.C., not Washington State. Missed by THAAAAAAAAAT much. I didn't realize Ascend was releasing a center channel with the RAAL. Is it an MTM? Any price on it yet? It might be a good match, but I would really have to hear it. Does your center have to be a low-profile MTM-type cabinet? A conventional MT won't fit your setup? I sort of have an MTM center, but it uses the Fountek, and the cabinets won't be ready for awhile. All I would have now is the the Monitor I or Monitor II, both MT's, and both using the Fountek.

doh!

Owhh well I could get them shipped to Point Roberts then pick them up. Here is a forum post at Dave's site he made regarding the center.

Sierra "Tower" Center

I might not even need a sub with them looking at the performance coming from that ML-TL. I could add a BFM Tuba HT sub DIY at 50-40Hz at 24dB slope down and reach to 10Hz at 110dB sensitivity in-room for movie LFE. The will fill in any possible LFE the Phil 2 would miss that the Phil 3 might reach. It's very interesting to see customers more interested in the Phil 3 Scanspeak than the more affordable Phil 2. Those Revelators split paper drivers are sure nice though! I just don't see the extra money being worth it when I could use that to build a BFM Tuba HT and reach 10Hz and possibly lower!

Dreams and ideas... I sure hope you guys can help them come to life! Actually I'm most certain you can!

I'm also curious Denis how you feel the ClassDaudio SDS-254 or L15D digital amps will drive Phil 2. Both are IRS2092 IRFI4019H based and I will be using a speaker protection relay circuit with them so no worry there. The 4019 looks like it can drive lower impedance loads better than the 4020 thus why I'm going to use the IRFI4019H driver based designs of the IR digital amp. I also have 7 UPA1s and couple XPA amps from Emotiva I could use. Curious what affordable amps you suggest for use with Phils.

Tuba HT

 

[Dennis Murphy]

doh!

Owhh well I could get them shipped to Point Roberts then pick them up. Here is a forum post at Dave's site he made regarding the center.

Sierra "Tower" Center

I might not even need a sub with them looking at the performance coming from that ML-TL. I could add a BFM Tuba HT sub DIY at 50-40Hz at 24dB slope down and reach to 10Hz at 110dB sensitivity in-room for movie LFE. The will fill in any possible LFE the Phil 2 would miss that the Phil 3 might reach. It's very interesting to see customers more interested in the Phil 3 Scanspeak than the more affordable Phil 2. Those Revelators split paper drivers are sure nice though! I just don't see the extra money being worth it when I could use that to build a BFM Tuba HT and reach 10Hz and possibly lower!

Dreams and ideas... I sure hope you guys can help them come to life! Actually I'm most certain you can!

I'm also curious Denis how you feel the ClassDaudio SDS-254 or L15D digital amps will drive Phil 2. Both are IRS2092 IRFI4019H based and I will be using a speaker protection relay circuit with them so no worry there. The 4019 looks like it can drive lower impedance loads better than the 4020 thus why I'm going to use the IRFI4019H driver based designs of the IR digital amp. I also have 7 UPA1s and couple XPA amps from Emotiva I could use. Curious what affordable amps you suggest for use with Phils.

Tuba HT

Dave is certainly ahead of me in terms of center offerings. I don't have any plans to offer a WMTMW, although Jim Salk has one. It's just a matter of cost. I would be curious to know what Dave is bringing his center in for.
I'm not into amps, I'm afraid. They really do all sound alike to me, assuming they have the guts to drive whatever they're hooked up to. The Phil's need 100 clean watts per channel into 4 ohms. I run mine with a VanAlstine Insight, which doesn't break a sweat. I know you can't go wrong with those, but there are probably any number of alternatives, including a decent HT AVR.

 

[Solid-State]

Dave is certainly ahead of me in terms of center offerings. I don't have any plans to offer a WMTMW, although Jim Salk has one. It's just a matter of cost. I would be curious to know what Dave is bringing his center in for.
I'm not into amps, I'm afraid. They really do all sound alike to me, assuming they have the guts to drive whatever they're hooked up to. The Phil's need 100 clean watts per channel into 4 ohms. I run mine with a VanAlstine Insight, which doesn't break a sweat. I know you can't go wrong with those, but there are probably any number of alternatives, including a decent HT AVR.

Dave's Sierra Tower floorstanders are $1900 bucks with NrT tweeter and $2800 with Raal 70-20XR. They come in a Bamboo cabinet that's very finely finished. I would assume the center would be half the cost of a pair of mains so I guess the Raal version STC I'm looking at must be about $1400 bucks. His cabs are very nice. I've purchased/used/installed his Sierra for customers. I used the Sierra dark cherry gloss and the cab finish was OUTSTANDING. (glad he includes white gloves for handling them)

I believe he was using some unnamed outfit that builds guitars to manufacture the cabinet. This might have changed though as I know he was having sourcing issues for bamboo plywood and having cabinets made for the new tower and center line. I really like to spread my purchases around and I feel your Phil 2 work and Dave's Sierra Center with Raal will be a match made in heaven.

Curious if the Phil 2 is available with the cab edge bevel like the Phil 3. Do you have any pictures of the raw cabinets you guys just received for Phil 2? I'm also curious about the ML-TL terminus. I'm going to be using them in a room with 20' vaulted ceilings cathedral style. Does it matter if the ceiling is that high for the termius/port when it fires up from the back of the ML-TL as it does in the design? Curious it doesn't fire out the back like a conventional ported design. Is this not better to load it to the wall? Sorry if these questions are off base as I know very little about QWT ML-TL speakers. (I stayed up to 3AM the other night reading about it but the maths are HEAVY)

It would sure be great to see a cross section photo of the ML-TL How do you guys load stuffing into it and test before shipment? I guess from the front baffle driver opening. Is there fill at the terminus end? It really sounds like the speaker can be tweaked to user tastes somewhat by messing with open back section and possibly ML-TL fill. It's interesting to see what going from an open baffle test to partial baffle does for the neo8 FR below 1kHz and BRILLIANT xover engineering!

 

[Warpdrv]

Hmmm now all they need to do is offer that RAAL tweet to the Sierra 1..

Big fan of the espresso finish myself....

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Dave's Sierra Tower floorstanders are $1900 bucks with NrT tweeter and $2800 with Raal 70-20XR. They come in a Bamboo cabinet that's very finely finished. I would assume the center would be half the cost of a pair of mains so I guess the Raal version STC I'm looking at must be about $1400 bucks. His cabs are very nice. I've purchased/used/installed his Sierra for customers. I used the Sierra dark cherry gloss and the cab finish was OUTSTANDING. (glad he includes white gloves for handling them)

I believe he was using some unnamed outfit that builds guitars to manufacture the cabinet. This might have changed though as I know he was having sourcing issues for bamboo plywood and having cabinets made for the new tower and center line. I really like to spread my purchases around and I feel your Phil 2 work and Dave's Sierra Center with Raal will be a match made in heaven.

Curious if the Phil 2 is available with the cab edge bevel like the Phil 3. Do you have any pictures of the raw cabinets from you guys just received for Phil 2? I'm also curious about the ML-TL terminus. I'm going to be using them in a room with 20' vaulted ceilings cathedral style. Does it matter if the ceiling is that high for the termius/port when it fires up from the back of the ML-TL as it does in the design? Curious it doesn't fire out the back like a conventional ported design. Is this not better to load it to the wall?

Bass radiation below 80 Hz is omnidirectional. I placed the terminus on the top so the bass cabinet could be placed near or against a rear wall without creating a cavity resonance. That's a problem with traditional ports mounted in the rear. For the Phil 1, 2, or 3, It won't make any difference whether your ceiling is 20 feet or 8 feet, and the rear wall will be loaded just as much as if the terminus where in the rear. I'm not quite clear what you mean by "bevel." The picture you show is of a phil 2 in a custom cabinet with chamfered edges. The stock cabinets for the 1 and 2 only come in 3/4" round over corners. We can build a 2 in whatever configuration, veneer you like. But it would cost a minimum of $600 extra a pair. I'll try and get some decent pics of the raw stock cabinets for the 1 and 2 on Monday. I'm socked in tomorrow. Cheers.

 

[Solid-State]

Bass radiation below 80 Hz is omnidirectional. I placed the terminus on the top so the bass cabinet could be placed near or against a rear wall without creating a cavity resonance. That's a problem with traditional ports mounted in the rear. For the Phil 1, 2, or 3, It won't make any difference whether your ceiling is 20 feet or 8 feet, and the rear wall will be loaded just as much as if the terminus where in the rear. I'm not quite clear what you mean by "bevel." The picture you show is of a phil 2 in a custom cabinet with chamfered edges. The stock cabinets for the 1 and 2 only come in 3/4" round over corners. We can build a 2 in whatever configuration, veneer you like. But it would cost a minimum of $600 extra a pair. I'll try and get some decent pics of the raw stock cabinets for the 1 and 2 on Monday. I'm socked in tomorrow. Cheers.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Denis and by bevel I meant "round-over". I'm getting very EXCITED! Sometimes when you put a new system together it's all about timing. In this case I think it's PERFECT TIMING. Dave is getting his center together and you guys are getting you're Phil 2 base model cabs in and worked out.

AWESOME!

We just have to match the finish and flat black is A OK to ME!

I can only imagine come mid Jan/Feb I'll have the best rig I've had yet! Well not yet... I still need to replace my UMC-1 with something more stable. AV7005 I guess... Perhaps I can wait that out as well and get something better. Do you guys know if Marantz/Denon will be offering upgraded models to AV7005. I don't get why Denon doesn't have a pre/pro in around the pricepoint of the sister company's AV7005 or at the pricepoint Integra offers. I want an AV7005 with XT32 !!!

Thanks

PS Curious Denis what the distance from the floor to the center of the Raal is on a Phil 2.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Denis and by bevel I meant "round-over". I'm getting very EXCITED! Sometimes when you put a new system together it's all about timing. In this case I think it's PERFECT TIMING. Dave is getting his center together and you guys are getting you're Phil 2 base model cabs in and worked out.

AWESOME!

We just have to match the finish and flat black is A OK to ME!

I can only imagine come mid Jan/Feb I'll have the best rig I've had yet! Well not yet... I still need to replace my UMC-1 with something more stable. AV7005 I guess... Perhaps I can wait that out as well and get something better. Do you guys know if Marantz/Denon will be offering upgraded models to AV7005. I don't get why Denon doesn't have a pre/pro in around the pricepoint of the sister company's AV7005 or at the pricepoint Integra offers. I want an AV7005 with XT32 !!!

Thanks

PS Curious Denis what the distance from the floor to the center of the Raal is on a Phil 2.

Hi The floor-to-midtweet distance is 38.25", or just shy of one meter. I would have no problem recommending Dave's center channel once I've had a chance to hear it. Frankly, it would simplify life for me greatly.

 

[Solid-State]

Hi The floor-to-midtweet distance is 38.25", or just shy of one meter. I would have no problem recommending Dave's center channel once I've had a chance to hear it. Frankly, it would simplify life for me greatly.

It's great to hear it's 2" shorter than the Phil 3 as I will prob make a Auralex SubDude like platform for it to sit on that's about 2" thick.

I'm curious what type of pad your using to isolate the high/mid section from the ML-TL.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

It's great to hear it's 2" shorter than the Phil 3 as I will prob make a Auralex SubDude like platform for it to sit on that's about 2" thick.

I'm curious what type of pad your using to isolate the high/mid section from the ML-TL.

I use BlackHole5, which is the best damping material I've found, although it is expensive: Blackhole 5 Enclosure Damping

 

[Solid-State]

I use BlackHole5, which is the best damping material I've found, although it is expensive: Blackhole 5 Enclosure Damping

I wasn't thinking of the damping material inside the cabinet but the material used as a "pad" between the ML-TL cab and the high/mid cab. I would think it's a thinner pad material.

I've used blackhole 5 before and it's FANTASTIC STUFF! Prob the best damping material around. No Rez is also good stuff that seems to do a better job of cabinet resonances for mid section.

This stuff is very thin and could possibly be used as a pad.
Acousti Block

Many other aftermarket products used in that application often suspend a barrier layer sandwiched between foam layers. This can have some isolation benefit, but does little to control enclosure resonances.

NoRez is best for mid dampening and BlackHole5 is great for sub section damping.

Great to hear you use the top-of-the-line damping materials in your speaker construction!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I wasn't thinking of the damping material inside the cabinet but the material used as a "pad" between the ML-TL cab and the high/mid cab. I would think it's a thinner pad material.

I've used blackhole 5 before and it's FANTASTIC STUFF! Prob the best damping material around. No Rez is also good stuff that seems to do a better job of cabinet resonances for mid section.

This stuff is very thin and could possibly be used as a pad.
Acousti Block


NoRez is best for mid dampening and BlackHole5 is great for sub section damping.

Great to hear you use the top-of-the-line damping materials in your speaker construction!

No--I was talking about the padding between the two cabinets. Black Hole does the best job for me, and I've tried them all. And the thicker the better, because the wires from the tweeter and midrange attach to the terminal on the top of the bass cabinet through a cutout in the Black Hole via banana plugs, and the plugs can't stick up over the top of the padding, or they will hit the upper cabinet. Maybe you have to see it.

 

[Solid-State]

No--I was talking about the padding between the two cabinets. Black Hole does the best job for me, and I've tried them all. And the thicker the better, because the wires from the tweeter and midrange attach to the terminal on the top of the bass cabinet through a cutout in the Black Hole via banana plugs, and the plugs can't stick up over the top of the padding, or they will hit the upper cabinet. Maybe you have to see it.

I can sorta visualize what your talking about. The edge then of the upper cab then must be 1" x 1/2" or something and there must be a 1" hole/cavity for the foam to rest in/on on the bottom of the upper cabinet. That would give you .375" between the cabs visual to user.

WOW that must work FANTASTIC for damping the two cabinets!

It seems everything has been thought out regarding the design.

I was thinking the bottom of the upper cab was flat to the edge and the pad between was thin and was thinking it would be better to do what I now know you've done. Funny... Sure would love to see a picture of the bottom of the upper cabinet and it's open back.

I still can't get over how perfect the FR looks for it and especially the off axis horizontal performance. You're a genius xover designer obviously. I'm curious if some of those inductors you made yourself. Also curious about using core inductors for the bass driver and those blue caps look like Clarity PX without the stencil. Those other thin gauge inductors looks hand wound. Do you make those? and I'm curious what you think about 16 gauge Erse inductors or inductor gauge in general and opinion on foil inductors.

Again thanks Dennis for taking the time to explain the design to me. I'm almost 100% sure now Phil 2 will be my new mains. Thanks for coming up with a design/product/marketing model we little fishes into HiFi can afford!

 

[DenPureSound]

Phils... DM is the DAMan..

Aren't we all looking at either the Phil 2's or 3's...

DM, is DA'Man for sure we all know that one.

 

[Solid-State]

Aren't we all looking at either the Phil 2's or 3's...

DM, is DA'Man for sure we all know that one.

In the new year I'm gunna go Phil 2 with Dave's STC and Bill's Tuba HT.

I should be flat from 26kHz to 10Hz less the room LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've heard the Neo8 before but it was crossed higher and also used for tweeter. Voice off of it was very life like and I can only imagine how it pairs with Raal!

I would assume the Neo8 isn't the PDR version used for line arrays?

ahh line arrays... someday if I win the lotto! Dreams of neo8 PDRs, Raals and Illuminators DEXQ'd... Now that's a loudspeaker I could JUSTIFY being over twelve grand!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

In the new year I'm gunna go Phil 2 with Dave's STC and Bill's Tuba HT.

I should be flat from 26kHz to 10Hz less the room LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've heard the Neo8 before but it was crossed higher and also used for tweeter. Voice off of it was very life like and I can only imagine how it pairs with Raal!

I would assume the Neo8 isn't the PDR version used for line arrays?

ahh line arrays... someday if I win the lotto! Dreams of neo8 PDRs, Raals and Illuminators DEXQ'd... Now that's a loudspeaker I could JUSTIFY being over twelve grand!

Hi No, this isn't the PDR version. The PDR is the same driver, but with the outer bank of openings to the driver blocked off so as to improve horizontal dispersion at the top of its radiating range. That also reduces sensitivity and power handling, although that's not an issue in multi-element line arrays. Since I cross to the RAAL or Fountek way before horizontal dispersion becomes an issue, the non-PDR is a better choice for the Philharmonics. I would love to design a really top notch line array, but I decided early on that those monsters are just too much speaker, and for too specialized a market, to make it practical for me.

 

[Solid-State]

No--I was talking about the padding between the two cabinets. Black Hole does the best job for me, and I've tried them all. And the thicker the better, because the wires from the tweeter and midrange attach to the terminal on the top of the bass cabinet through a cutout in the Black Hole via banana plugs, and the plugs can't stick up over the top of the padding, or they will hit the upper cabinet. Maybe you have to see it.

When I need to do stuff like that I pull my Canon ITT Technologies connector sourcebook. There's thousands of various connector solutions in that sourcebook as well as the one from AMPS. I found the aerospace connectors have amazing solutions for those types of engineering issues. Hard to get a deal on them though unless you know someone on the inside!


Also if you ever want to come up with your own damping solution like Sonic Craft has then I suggest you checkout a company called Polymer Technologies Inc in Newark, DE. Blackhole five is almost perfect in that it should at the sticky backing side have a second thin layer of high weight/density layer like NoRez. Then you would have the properties of both in one solution! I also found the stick on Black Hole 5 isn't that good and it's best to supplement with a spray adhesive unless you prime MDF with CPES. That could have been the PartsExpress knock off though... can't remember. This is particularly bad if you burnishing the OSB or remove it's thin layer of lacquer/sealing by sanding it (ALWAYS do this at glue joints IMHO). I remove all the factory MDF sealant via sanding and then seal the whole thing with CPES. This stuff MultiWoodPrime is FANTASTIC for sealing MD. They also make fantastic glue for MDF. A friend that works knocking up Hollywood sets told me about that stuff and they use the heat weakening glue for teardown. They also say the product is great for gluing speaker cabinets together specifically. A lot of luthier's and guitar makers use that stuff. Tropical Hardwood Epoxy not the teak stuff that's what my Hollywood friend uses.

Tropical Hardwood Epoxy and Oak and Teak Glue

I tried these techniques for painting MDF and the results with Porter's Glyptex High gloss oil was AMAZING without the hand rubbing etc. We are talking mirror Ferrari car like paint job in just about any colour!


http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9830
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8334#POST68351
http://www.contractortalk.com/f8/has-anyone-ever-heard-using-lacquer-primer-19412/

I used that technique but my first layer/sealant was the CPES or MultiWoodPrime.

I'll dry to dig up posts of the paint jobs on cabinets using that from carpenters and auto body guys and custom car dudes using Porter Glyptex. The paint looks like liquid I swear!

The experiments regarding painting was done after my Dynamic 1S build though and it was done on scrap pieces.

There is no primer available anywhere, not through specialty suppliers or retail outlets or any other, that functions as an adhesion promoting primer, a porosity-sealing primer, a tannin-blocking primer, an acidity-neutralizing primer and a sanding-primer, (as well as resisting long-term coating failure) all-in-one

Like I said the highend custom car dudes use it for custom car sound system speaker cabs etc. It's really amazing stuff!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Philharmonic 1&2 monitor

OK, so the Philharmonic 2 monitor is bigger than the Philharmonic 1 monitor.

Is the Philharmonic 2 monitor gloss black, while the philharmonic 1 is satin black?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

When I need to do stuff like that I pull my Canon ITT Technologies connector sourcebook. There's thousands of various connector solutions in that sourcebook as well as the one from AMPS. I found the aerospace connectors have amazing solutions for those types of engineering issues. Hard to get a deal on them though unless you know someone on the inside!


Also if you ever want to come up with your own damping solution like Sonic Craft has then I suggest you checkout a company called Polymer Technologies Inc in Newark, DE. Blackhole five is almost perfect in that it should at the sticky backing side have a second thin layer of high weight/density layer like NoRez. Then you would have the properties of both in one solution! I also found the stick on Black Hole 5 isn't that good and it's best to supplement with a spray adhesive unless you prime MDF with CPES. That could have been the PartsExpress knock off though... can't remember. This is particularly bad if you burnishing the OSB or remove it's thin layer of lacquer/sealing by sanding it (ALWAYS do this at glue joints IMHO). I remove all the factory MDF sealant via sanding and then seal the whole thing with CPES. This stuff MultiWoodPrime is FANTASTIC for sealing MD. They also make fantastic glue for MDF. A friend that works knocking up Hollywood sets told me about that stuff and they use the heat weakening glue for teardown. They also say the product is great for gluing speaker cabinets together specifically. A lot of luthier's and guitar makers use that stuff. Tropical Hardwood Epoxy not the teak stuff that's what my Hollywood friend uses.

Tropical Hardwood Epoxy and Oak and Teak Glue

I tried these techniques for painting MDF and the results with Porter's Glyptex High gloss oil was AMAZING without the hand rubbing etc. We are talking mirror Ferrari car like paint job in just about any colour!


Mdf finishing - Let's Talk ShopBot
Some 2008 PRS Alpha Highlights - Let's Talk ShopBot
Has Anyone Ever Heard Of Using Lacquer As A Primer?? - Painting & Finish Work - Contractor Talk

I used that technique but my first layer/sealant was the CPES or MultiWoodPrime.

I'll dry to dig up posts of the paint jobs on cabinets using that from carpenters and auto body guys and custom car dudes using Porter Glyptex. The paint looks like liquid I swear!

The experiments regarding painting was done after my Dynamic 1S build though and it was done on scrap pieces.



Like I said the highend custom car dudes use it for custom car sound system speaker cabs etc. It's really amazing stuff!

Thanks for all the tips. I'll forward them to my cabinet maker. Sounds like you've been around the block on this. The Black Hole adhesive is better than the PartsExpress, which sticks to itself much too easily, but not all that well to mdf. It's not much an issue either way for the isolation pad, since it has gravity working for it. But I have had some problems keeping the PE padding inside the upper cabinet stuck to the side walls. I'll try some spray adhesive. Thanks again.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

OK, so the Philharmonic 2 monitor is bigger than the Philharmonic 1 monitor.

Is the Philharmonic 2 monitor gloss black, while the philharmonic 1 is satin black?

Wrong, AcuDefTechGuyDude. The cabinets for both are sourced from Parts Express, and they both come in a choice of gloss black, cherry, or beech. And the come in conventional straight-sided cabinets and, for a little extra, curved sides.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wrong, AcuDefTechGuyDude. The cabinets for both are sourced from Parts Express, and they both come in a choice of gloss black, cherry, or beech. And the come in conventional straight-sided cabinets and, for a little extra, curved sides.

Ah, so I see.

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