New speakers, music mainly: Snell, Jamo, Boston Acoustics, Aperion?

[venessian]

I had posted a thread here recently which received 1 reply, but I realize now that the topic was too general and I was way too uninformed. I have done a lot of research recently and I hope that I can now be more succinct and specific, and hopefully receive some good advice.

My wife and I need a new stereo system, as everything we have is old and outdated. She is a part-time opera singer, so it is important that the set-up be geared for her to listen to her practices and other works, as well as a range of music from classical to jazz and blues. Therefore, “musical” speakers and receiver.

We are not, however, looking for a “music only” set-up, as we would like the receiver to be AVR and to connect the speakers to the TV/DVD. We are on a fairly tight budget.

For now the system will be 2.1, 2 new speakers and a new AVR. We may expand into 5.1 in the future, and we may not. We will not be hooking up iPods, doing gaming, etc. Only listening to music and watching films.

Here is a plan of the living area. The space is quite long (37’) but is divided into 2 sections in terms of height. The shaded area that has red dots over (where the stereo/TV are) is about 12’ x 14’ with a flat ceiling about 8.5’ high, while the area not dotted rises from 8.5’ at the windows to about 16’ high at the curved dashed line. The floors are terrazzo except for 3 rugs; the walls are plaster over brick; the ceilings are drywall, so a lot of hard surfaces. Sound will be provided to the dining area via a Sonos ZP90 connected to the receiver, and a Sonos S5 player at the far wall on a credenza. The area of primary focus then is the sitting area.

Also, the apartment is in Venice, Italy and I am currently in the US, therefore any home audition is impossible.

I have looked into “musical” speakers and have come up with 4 alternatives, that are all interesting to me.
In price order (shipped, etc.) they are:

2 mint used (almost new) Snell Acoustics K5 (2004); $375.
1” tweeter; 6.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 48-20,000 Hz; Impedance: 8 ohms; Sensitvity: 86db.

2 mint (demo level) Jamo C803 (very recent) $425.
1” tweeter; 7.0” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 45-24,000 Hz; Impedance: 6 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

2 new Boston Acoustics VS260; $600.
1” tweeter; 6.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 45-30,000 Hz; Impedance: 8 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

2 new Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelf; $600.
1” tweeter; 5.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 59-20,000 Hz; Impedance: 6 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

Reviews on the Snell K5 and the BA VS260 are hard to come by, but the few I have found are very positive.
Reviews on the Jamo C803 and the Aperion VGB are far more common and almost all extremely positive.
I have heard some Jamo C803 and I thought they sounded great; it is not possible to audition the others, as the Snells are used, Aperion are ID only, and nobody in my area carries the BA VS260.

Any comments/recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Also, if any of these speakers might NOT require a subwoofer, I would be interested in knowing.
If a good musical sub is required, and recommended, it MUST be 120/240 V switchable, like the HSU VTF-1 or the Velodyne Impacts, since eventually it will be in Italy. I haven’t looked at other subs yet.

Regarding the receiver, again I have a short list:

Denon AVR-1712; refurbished; $308.
Denon AVR-891; new; $389.
Denon AVR-1912; refurbished; $414.
Marantz SR5005; B-stock; $449.
I like Marantz a lot and looked at the Marantz SR6005 as well, but $516 is a lot of money....
If someone can recommend a lower-priced Marantz AVR with Audyssey and the power to run the speakers, please do so!

However, if the Denon 1712 would be fine we would quite OK with that and “saving” some money...we still need cables, etc.

Again, any comments/recommendations as to which, if any, of these receivers might pair up best with the speakers above would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Swerd]

Two "musical speakers" and AVR, for music and films, with option to expand to 2.1 or 5.1 in the future.

2 mint used (almost new) Snell Acoustics K5 (2004); $375.
1” tweeter; 6.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 48-20,000 Hz; Impedance: 8 ohms; Sensitvity: 86db.

2 mint (demo level) Jamo C803 (very recent) $425.
1” tweeter; 7.0” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 45-24,000 Hz; Impedance: 6 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

2 new Boston Acoustics VS260; $600.
1” tweeter; 6.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 45-30,000 Hz; Impedance: 8 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

2 new Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelf; $600.
1” tweeter; 5.5” woofer; FR (+/- 3dB): 59-20,000 Hz; Impedance: 6 ohms; Sensitvity: 87db.

Reviews on the Snell K5 and the BA VS260 are hard to come by, but the few I have found are very positive.

Reviews on the Jamo C803 and the Aperion VGB are far more common and almost all extremely positive.

I have heard some Jamo C803 and I thought they sounded great; it is not possible to audition the others, as the Snells are used, Aperion are ID only, and nobody in my area carries the BA VS260.

Thanks for the detailed drawing and description of your apartment in Venice. It looks nice. I haven't heard any of the 4 speakers you mentioned, but that won't stop me or others from offering advice.

Based on manufacturer reputation as well as parts & construction, the Snell and Jamo are probably a better class of speaker than the other two. You mentioned that you already heard and liked the Jamo, but the Snell K5 at that price is very attractive. The K5 was a well-known model that was around for a long time. Other Snell models had a reputation for a very neutral (uncolored) sound that I think might be important to a singer such as your wife. It would be high on my list.

See http://www.snell.no/Manuals/E5,K5,CR5.pdf

Regarding the receiver, again I have a short list:

Denon AVR-1712; refurbished; $308.
Denon AVR-891; new; $389.
Denon AVR-1912; refurbished; $414.
Marantz SR5005; B-stock; $449.

All 4 of the speakers you mentioned are rather insensitive and might do much better with receivers that have more power. It depends on your listening levels, listening distance, and room acoustics. As a suggestion, look for a receiver that can deliver an honest 100 watts per channel or more, when rated at 8 ohms, 20-20,000 Hz, continuous (or RMS) power, when 2-channels are driven. You already provided good info about distance and the room, but you'll have to actually hear things in that room before you know more. Higher powered amps can make music sound more "realistic" without actually driving the speakers at a louder listening level. Of the 4 speakers you mentioned, I think the Snell and the Jamo are more likely to behave like that, than the other two. That is only my educated guess. Others may have different opinions.

Snell recommended 50-250 watts for the K5. It is easier to damage a speaker, if you play at high volume levels with an amp or receiver that is underpowered than it is if it is overpowered. This is how Snell said it in their manual:

The power recommendation for the system assumes you will operate the amplifier in a way that will not produce distortion. All speakers can be damaged by a modest amplifier if it is producing distortion. If you hear a gritty noise or other signs of strain, turn down the volume. Prolonged or repeated operation of your speakers with a distorted signal can cause damage that is not covered by the warranty.

As far as a subwoofer, make that a separate decision. Wait until you hear your speakers in that room in Venice. You may find that for music, a subwoofer is not required. Your choice of AVR power, will have an effect on bass performance for those speakers. Higher power tends to provide better bass sound and control for 6-7" midwoofers. A lot depends on your preference in music and how loud you like to listen.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also, the apartment is in Venice, Italy and I am currently in the US, therefore any home audition is impossible.

NHT Classic Three.

SoundStage! Measurements - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)

SoundStage! Equipment Review - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)

NHT - Classic Model Three-Audio Advisor

PSB Alpha B1.

SoundStage! Measurements - PSB Alpha B1 Loudspeakers (10/2006)

PSB - Alpha B1 - Bookshelf Speakers-Audio Advisor

 

[venessian]

Thanks for the detailed drawing and description of your apartment in Venice. It looks nice. I haven't heard any of the 4 speakers you mentioned, but that won't stop me or others from offering advice.

Based on manufacturer reputation as well as parts & construction, the Snell and Jamo are probably a better class of speaker than the other two. You mentioned that you already heard and liked the Jamo, but the Snell K5 at that price is very attractive. The K5 was a well-known model that was around for a long time. Other Snell models had a reputation for a very neutral (uncolored) sound that I think might be important to a singer such as your wife. It would be high on my list.

See http://www.snell.no/Manuals/E5,K5,CR5.pdf

All 4 of the speakers you mentioned are rather insensitive and might do much better with receivers that have more power. It depends on your listening levels, listening distance, and room acoustics. As a suggestion, look for a receiver that can deliver an honest 100 watts per channel or more, when rated at 8 ohms, 20-20,000 Hz, continuous (or RMS) power, when 2-channels are driven. You already provided good info about distance and the room, but you'll have to actually hear things in that room before you know more. Higher powered amps can make music sound more "realistic" without actually driving the speakers at a louder listening level. Of the 4 speakers you mentioned, I think the Snell and the Jamo are more likely to behave like that, than the other two. That is only my educated guess. Others may have different opinions.

Snell recommended 50-250 watts for the K5. It is easier to damage a speaker, if you play at high volume levels with an amp or receiver that is underpowered than it is if it is overpowered. This is how Snell said it in their manual:


As far as a subwoofer, make that a separate decision. Wait until you hear your speakers in that room in Venice. You may find that for music, a subwoofer is not required. Your choice of AVR power, will have an effect on bass performance for those speakers. Higher power tends to provide better bass sound and control for 6-7" midwoofers. A lot depends on your preference in music and how loud you like to listen.

Thank you very much; really outstanding, helpful reply!

Yes, in fact the Snell and Jamo are also #1 on our list (even if they were the same price). I think the Snell seem like a good deal (for that price, they also come with stands). That is probably what we will buy. That will also free some budget for receiver, etc.

As far as the receiver is concerned, I am leaning toward the Marantz SR5005 (100W) or maybe even the SR6005 (110W). Will these be sufficient or would a separate pre-amp be recommended for the 86db speakers. I know nothing about pre-amps, so any advice there would be greatly appreciated. We are trying to save money, but not at the cost of an under-performing system or at the risk of blowing out speakers.

Yes, the sub will most likely be a separate acquisition, after everything is set u in Italy. Velodyne have an Italian distributor.

Thanks again: i really appreciate your direct response.

 

[venessian]

NHT Classic Three.

SoundStage! Measurements - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)

SoundStage! Equipment Review - NHT Classic Three Loudspeakers (3/2007)

NHT - Classic Model Three-Audio Advisor

PSB Alpha B1.

SoundStage! Measurements - PSB Alpha B1 Loudspeakers (10/2006)

PSB - Alpha B1 - Bookshelf Speakers-Audio Advisor

Thank you. I have read a bit about both those speakers, but I am very new to all this and am becoming overwhelmed by choices. It could go on and on.

I have read good things esp. about the NHT, but they are over our budget (there are some demo Classic Two available in our budget), but I would consider those only if one could make a compelling argument that they are superior to the 4 on my list...otherwise I could just go crazy looking at tons of options, and end up nowhere.

 

[Swerd]

As far as the receiver is concerned, I am leaning toward the Marantz SR5005 (100W) or maybe even the SR6005 (110W). Will these be sufficient or would a separate pre-amp be recommended for the 86db speakers. I know nothing about pre-amps, so any advice there would be greatly appreciated. We are trying to save money, but not at the cost of an under-performing system or at the risk of blowing out speakers.

If you are trying to save money, be sure to get an AVR that can also operate as a pre-amp for at least the front speakers. Look for the existence of pre-amp output RCA jacks on the rear panel.

I just checked the Marantz SR5005 and it does have pre-amp out put jacks for all 7.1 channels. So that might be a good choice, allowing you the option to add a more powerful external amp in the future and use the SR5005 as a pre-amp.

I doubt if there is a significant difference between 100 wpc and 110 wpc. For real differences, one would have to at least double the power.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I can't believe no one mentioned Ascend yet - For music at this budget you'd be hard pressed to find better (neutral and precise) speaker as CMT-340

Given the large size of room 340 are better suited than most other speakers mentioned before. Plus they are easier to match to receiver.

and this AVR: Onkyo TX-NR807 THX Select2 Plus 135 watts x 7.2 Network Receiver | Accessories4less

 

[venessian]

If you are trying to save money, be sure to get an AVR that can also operate as a pre-amp for at least the front speakers. Look for the existence of pre-amp output RCA jacks on the rear panel.

I just checked the Marantz SR5005 and it does have pre-amp out put jacks for all 7.1 channels. So that might be a good choice, allowing you the option to add a more powerful external amp in the future and use the SR5005 as a pre-amp.

I doubt if there is a significant difference between 100 wpc and 110 wpc. For real differences, one would have to at least double the power.

Thank you. Yes, I have read that 10w increase is essentially nothing.

Is there any reason to buy the Marantz SR6005 over the SR5005?
The only differences i can find are:
1. 10 more watts per channel (110w x7 vs. 100w x 7)
2. HD radio built in
3. 2 extra HDMI inputs
4. LCD display on remote
5. 1 extra subwoofer output (2 total)
6. DC trigger (to trigger a remote screen, etc)

Is that enough to justify a $68 premium?
The SR5005 is B-stock; the SR6005 is factory refurb. Both are from authorized dealers, with warranty.

 

[venessian]

I can't believe no one mentioned Ascend yet - For music at this budget you'd be hard pressed to find better (neutral and precise) speaker as CMT-340

Given the large size of room 340 are better suited than most other speakers mentioned before. Plus they are easier to match to receiver.

and this AVR: Onkyo TX-NR807 THX Select2 Plus 135 watts x 7.2 Network Receiver | Accessories4less

Thanks. I have heard of those before. They seem to get good reviews, but now I'm in the speaker run-around circle again. Do you think they are better suited because of the dual woofers? Even if I add a sub to any of the other speakers?

I'm leaning toward the Snell K5 #1 ($375 shipped) and the Jamo C803 #2 ($425 shipped. The slight advantage of these Ascends, if indeed people think they would sound as good or better than those, is that for $540 shipped they are brand new. Both the Snell and Jamo look pristine though, and both have about 100 hours on them, so not abused at all.

What does "easier to match to receiver" mean? Because they are 90db instead of 86 for the Snell/87 for the Jamo?
Also, the Jamo are 6 ohms; the Snell and Ascend are 8 ohms. Is that significant?

As far as FR, they look similar to me:
Snell: 48-20,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Jamo: 45-24,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Ascend: 48-24,000 Hz +/- 3dB

As far as the Onkyo goes, I'm concerned about that brand because I have read that they tend to run hot. The receiver will be in Italy, meaning a good current converter will be required, but I'm a bit reluctant to run a "hot running" component to a converter. The receiver wil not be in a cabinet, however.

 

[zieglj01]

I see that you are still trying to decide - the Marantz will drive the Snells.
10 watts difference, will not be that big a deal.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks. I have heard of those before. They seem to get good reviews, but now I'm in the speaker run-around circle again. Do you think they are better suited because of the dual woofers? Even if I add a sub to any of the other speakers?

I'm leaning toward the Snell K5 #1 ($375 shipped) and the Jamo C803 #2 ($425 shipped. The slight advantage of these Ascends, if indeed people think they would sound as good or better than those, is that for $540 shipped they are brand new. Both the Snell and Jamo look pristine though, and both have about 100 hours on them, so not abused at all.

What does "easier to match to receiver" mean? Because they are 90db instead of 86 for the Snell/87 for the Jamo?
Also, the Jamo are 6 ohms; the Snell and Ascend are 8 ohms. Is that significant?

As far as FR, they look similar to me:
Snell: 48-20,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Jamo: 45-24,000 Hz +/- 3dB
Ascend: 48-24,000 Hz +/- 3dB

As far as the Onkyo goes, I'm concerned about that brand because I have read that they tend to run hot. The receiver will be in Italy, meaning a good current converter will be required, but I'm a bit reluctant to run a "hot running" component to a converter. The receiver wil not be in a cabinet, however.

First: Regarding the AVR: I personally don't like running 700W-1000W appliance with any sort of AC/AC converter - good ones are expensive and will heavily eat into savings you made by buying 110v versions
I checked several models and most so far support 110v only, unless you could find a dual voltage AVR here in US, i'd strongly recommend for you to get a local AVR in italy.

Regarding speakers:

Yes, they are easier to match and drive due to higher sensitivity - 90 (92 in room)

Dual woofers will be loader than a same size single woofer in most cases, in rather big room that is an advantage.

I heard good things about Snell's but I don't have their measurements to judge them.

Ascends as you can see in the measurements provided are extremely neutral speaker. Ascend pride in providing best sound without bs.

The reason CMT-340 are priced as a "budget" speaker is since these series are not probably best looking ones out there

 

[venessian]

I see that you are still trying to decide - the Marantz will drive the Snells.
10 watts difference, will not be that big a deal.

Thanks zieglj01. Yes, I think the Snells/SR5005 are the way to go. Better for our budget, and if we buy a sub, then I don't know if the 2 woofers of the Ascend are that critical.

 

[venessian]

First: Regarding the AVR: I personally don't like running 700W-1000W appliance with any sort of AC/AC converter - good ones are expensive and will heavily eat into savings you made by buying 110v versions
I checked several models and most so far support 110v only, unless you could find a dual voltage AVR here in US, i'd strongly recommend for you to get a local AVR in italy.

Regarding speakers:

Yes, they are easier to match and drive due to higher sensitivity - 90 (92 in room)

Dual woofers will be loader than a same size single woofer in most cases, in rather big room that is an advantage.

I heard good things about Snell's but I don't have their measurements to judge them.

Ascends as you can see in the measurements provided are extremely neutral speaker. Ascend pride in providing best sound without bs.

The reason CMT-340 are priced as a "budget" speaker is since these series are not probably best looking ones out there

Thanks.
I don't think the converter will be a big deal. I have in Italy a HUGE, heavy, powerful converter that I bought at the US military base in Aviano. It should handle the Marantz I think.

I agree that the Ascends are intriguing. I too wish I had measurements on the Snells, but everything I read states that they are really excellent. The used ones look great, come with stands. I'll email the seller to see if he has measurements, but I doubt he does.

Sure, the Ascends are simple looking boxes, but so are the Snells. The BA and Jamo are "sexier" but looks aren't going to drive my decision. I just want the cleanest, best-sounding speaker in our budget for my wife.

 

[zieglj01]

Thanks zieglj01. Yes, I think the Snells/SR5005 are the way to go. Better for our budget, and if we buy a sub, then I don't know if the 2 woofers of the Ascend are that critical.

The Snells can handle a lot of power. They also have a good on axis,
and off axis response. I still give the edge to Boston however, the
Snells will bring you lots of enjoyment.

 

[Swerd]

Thank you. Yes, I have read that 10w increase is essentially nothing.

Is there any reason to buy the Marantz SR6005 over the SR5005?
The only differences i can find are:
1. 10 more watts per channel (110w x7 vs. 100w x 7)
2. HD radio built in
3. 2 extra HDMI inputs
4. LCD display on remote
5. 1 extra subwoofer output (2 total)
6. DC trigger (to trigger a remote screen, etc)

Is that enough to justify a $68 premium?
The SR5005 is B-stock; the SR6005 is factory refurb. Both are from authorized dealers, with warranty.

That list of features are mainly matters of convenience and utility. None of them would matter to me. But $68 difference isn't that much. If any of them matter to you, pay the difference. If you don't know, then they probably don't matter.

Do either of those models have a built-in ability to switch internally for 240 volts, or do they require an external transformer? If you bought a model switchable for either 120 volts (USA) or 240 volts (European) how much extra would that cost?

 

[venessian]

That list of features are mainly matters of convenience and utility. None of them would matter to me. But $68 difference isn't that much. If any of them matter to you, pay the difference. If you don't know, then they probably don't matter.

Do either of those models have a built-in ability to switch internally for 240 volts, or do they require an external transformer? If you bought a model switchable for either 120 volts (USA) or 240 volts (European) how much extra would that cost?

None of those features really grab me, either. I don't know if HD radio built in is worth $68.

Good question on the switchable, but does such a thing even exist in a receiver? I haven't seen it listed as a feature on any receiver I've looked at. Some subs come with a 120/240 switch. I'll call Marantz tomorrow and ask them about compatibility/performance in Europe.

 

[venessian]

The Snells can handle a lot of power. They also have a good on axis,
and off axis response. I still give the edge to Boston however, the
Snells will bring you lots of enjoyment.

Good to know, about the on-/off-axis, thanks. You know I like the BAs too; I'm just struggling to understand if they are worth the $225 difference to us, a bit more since the Snells come with stands.

Plus, you and Swerd both like the Snells, which gives me more confidence in them. I read the manual Swerd linked in post #2, and got the feeling that the K5 are very well-conceived, well-built speakers. If the BA, etc. were demonstrably better, I would get those. All things being basically equal, I would go for the Snells.

The choice is difficult because the BA, Jamo, Aperion, and Ascend all come from the "music line" of those companies, so I expect the sound is good on them all.

The Snell at $375 allows us to buy the (in my opinion) better Marantz receiver (over the Denons) and get a sub. With the BA or Aperion, even with the Ascend, that gets a bit more difficult to pull off.

The advantage of the BA, Jamo, Aperion and Ascend is that they are current speakers, meaning that if we ever decide to do 5.1 finding matching surrounds/center might be easier. On the other hand, I don't know that matching brands is required when going from 2.1 to 5.1?
One advantage of the Jamo is that they are very big in Europe and I see that they are sold in several stores near Venice. The Jamo are used, so not under warranty, but at least there are places I could take them in case anything ever went wrong.
I consider both of these "advantages" to be very minor, however.

 

[zieglj01]

Good to know, about the on-/off-axis, thanks. You know I like the BAs too; I'm just struggling to understand if they are worth the $225 difference to us, a bit more since the Snells come with stands.

The Snells are good, and will do a good job with Music. - the soundstage
is real good. Based on your options and budget - the Snell deal seems to
be best for you. Boston use to own Snell - then D&M bought both.

 

[venessian]

The Snells are good, and will do a good job with Music. - the soundstage
is real good. Based on your options and budget - the Snell deal seems to
be best for you. Boston use to own Snell - then D&M bought both. Snell
was in the same Boston warehouse.

Interesting, Snell, BA, D, and M all part of the same family.

JZ: what are your Snell K7? Are they a newer version of the K5, or are they a different version (i. e. tower)? Do the K7 sound similar to K5?

On the other forum you described very well the sound of the K5; in your opinion what are the differences between the BA VS260 and the K5?

I assume you have not heard Jamo C803 or the Ascends, or have you?

I have a feeling that you are right: in our situation Snell K5, Marantz SR5005, and a sub.

 

[zieglj01]

Interesting, Snell, BA, D, and M all part of the same family.

JZ: what are your Snell K7? Are they a newer version of the K5, or are they a different version (i. e. tower)? Do the K7 sound similar to K5?

On the other forum you described very well the sound of the K5; in your opinion what are the differences between the BA VS260 and the K5?

The Snell K7 replaced the K5, and has better quality Seas drivers.
The Boston has better drivers than the K5, and sound more realistic.
The Boston will be a little bit more lively sounding, and has more bass
impact. To me they are worth the origional price of $1400 a pair.

I have listened to a high end Jamo, and they are pretty good. I have
not listened to Ascends - the only Ascend speakers that interest me,
are the Sierra's. Based on the company reviews and history - I do
have respect for them.

http://www.snellacoustics.com/K7Lit_31508.pdf
http://www.snellacoustics.com/default.asp