My Revel Salon 2 Have Arrived

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Orion Crossover/Amp Hissing Back Story

The Orions have always produced a hissing sound on the tweeters from about a feet away.

I've tried 4 different sets of cables for the Orion Crossover/Amp: BJC, Monoprice, Phoenix Gold, Belkin.

Still, the hissing sound would not go away. I tried rearranging the crossover, wirings, and moving the crossover completely away from the rack, but to no avail.

I just accepted the fact that the hissing sound was permanent.

DenPureSound kept raving about his Acoustic Research Master Series (AR MS) interconnects. So I bought a whole set for the Orion XO/Amp.

Last night I installed the AR MS cables.

When I powered up the Denon 5308/Orion XO/Amp, I didn't hear the usual hissing sound. I thought I had done something wrong at first. But everything was correct.

2 AR MS went from the Denon 5308 to the Orion XO.
6 AR MS + 2 AR MS Y-cables went from the Orion XO to the AT1260 amp.

So now the hissing sound from the tweeters is gone.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Was audyssey engaged?

amazing that two very different designs sound alike.

I've tried Audyssey everytime I get new speakers.

They always produced either NO EFFECTS or they produced ADVERSE EFFECTS.

So I turned Audyssey off completely.

I will run Audyssey again on the Salon2s today and see.

But last night, Audyssey was turned OFF.

I think all great accurate speakers sound alike.

If they are accurate, they need to be able to reproduce the music faithfully and accurately. There is only ONE accurate, or close to it. You can't have 2 completely DIFFERENT accurate reproduction of the exact source.

If speaker#1 reproduced the note of "C" 100% accurately, and speaker#2 reproduced the exact note of "C" 100% accurately, how can the same exact note of "C" sound completely different?

 

[Warpdrv]

I think all great accurate speakers sound alike.

If they are accurate, they need to be able to reproduce the music faithfully and accurately. There is only ONE accurate, or close to it. You can't have 2 completely DIFFERENT accurate reproduction of the exact source.

If speaker#1 reproduced the note of "C" 100% accurately, and speaker#2 reproduced the exact note of "C" 100% accurately, how can the same exact note of "C" sound completely different?

^^^^^ This^^^^^

Agreed Sir....

If they measure respectively very close they should sound very very similar..
I hope you are enjoying your new Salon's... they are very nice... I personally couldn't justify the price - perhaps you could pickup a pair of some Salks like below and see how they do in comparison to the Salons... I'd be very interested in your findings...


I also agree with the idea of getting some audition of Salk Sound Speakers MAAB.... We have done some small get togethers with many various speakers and Salks products truly always stand out as being some of the best I have heard...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94336.0

I am extremely interested in these speakers shown in the pictures - they are Jim Salks version of his top of the line SoundScape speakers - for surround duty... I would use them as mains rather then surrounds - crossed over to a pair of really good subs... TC-LMS's I suggest FunkyWaves 18.0 for that job... very very WAF friendly...

http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_18_0
Any Veneer you want... top sub on that page is the custom box he built for me..


I honestly wish that Salk would produce some curved cabinet speakers but he certainly knows how to put out a fantastic sounding product for the price in comparison to mega thousand $$$ products...

Very impressive...

 

[GranteedEV]

i would love to see a version of those ss jrs with the exodus anarchy 8 inch that kevin haskins is developing.

If they are accurate, they need to be able to reproduce the music faithfully and accurately. There is only ONE accurate, or close to it. You can't have 2 completely DIFFERENT accurate reproduction of the exact source.

If speaker#1 reproduced the note of "C" 100% accurately, and speaker#2 reproduced the exact note of "C" 100% accurately, how can the same exact note of "C" sound completely different?

what if one puts the note of C behind it on a stage and the other puts you right next to the note of C? ;P. which is accurate?

Answer? The one with the more expensive amp.

 

[Maab]

^^^^^ This^^^^^

Agreed Sir....

If they measure respectively very close they should sound very very similar..
I hope you are enjoying your new Salon's... they are very nice... I personally couldn't justify the price - perhaps you could pickup a pair of some Salks like below and see how they do in comparison to the Salons... I'd be very interested in your findings...


I also agree with the idea of getting some audition of Salk Sound Speakers MAAB.... We have done some small get togethers with many various speakers and Salks products truly always stand out as being some of the best I have heard...
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94336.0

I am extremely interested in these speakers shown in the pictures - they are Jim Salks version of his top of the line SoundScape speakers - for surround duty... I would use them as mains rather then surrounds - crossed over to a pair of really good subs... TC-LMS's I suggest FunkyWaves 18.0 for that job... very very WAF friendly...

http://www.funkywaves.net/catalog.cfm?item=fw_18_0
Any Veneer you want... top sub on that page is the custom box he built for me..


I honestly wish that Salk would produce some curved cabinet speakers but he certainly knows how to put out a fantastic sounding product for the price in comparison to mega thousand $$$ products...

Very impressive...

Ok ok. Lots of you seem really fond of Salk speakers. It seems like he has no association with snake oil and I like that. I'll take a look into it. I particularly like the "surround speakers" and I wonder whether they could be done active.

I do not like the design of the soundscape, sorry.

Thanks for the links. Even that the subs do indeed look ferocious should be classified as WAF friendly. But I have two Jl subs already about which I like their form factor... at least for the moment.

 

[Maab]

The Orions have always produced a hissing sound on the tweeters from about a feet away.

I've tried 4 different sets of cables for the Orion Crossover/Amp: BJC, Monoprice, Phoenix Gold, Belkin.

Still, the hissing sound would not go away. I tried rearranging the crossover, wirings, and moving the crossover completely away from the rack, but to no avail.

I just accepted the fact that the hissing sound was permanent.

DenPureSound kept raving about his Acoustic Research Master Series (AR MS) interconnects. So I bought a whole set for the Orion XO/Amp.

Last night I installed the AR MS cables.

When I powered up the Denon 5308/Orion XO/Amp, I didn't hear the usual hissing sound. I thought I had done something wrong at first. But everything was correct.

2 AR MS went from the Denon 5308 to the Orion XO.
6 AR MS + 2 AR MS Y-cables went from the Orion XO to the AT1260 amp.

So now the hissing sound from the tweeters is gone.

Do you think that these AR cables are something special or do you think that the hissing cables are just a poor design?

I remember reading at linkwitz forum other posts regarding the hissing. You are not alone, I guess.

 

[GranteedEV]

Ok ok. Lots of you seem really fond of Salk speakers. It seems like he has no association with snake oil and I like that. I'll take a look into it. I particularly like the "surround speakers" and I wonder whether they could be done active.

I have no doubt that could be done active as Salk is a custom company and they've done active builds before. However that would still mean using your own amps plus a DEQX

Do you think that these AR cables are something special or do you think that the hissing cables are just a poor design?

I think it would have something to do with a resistor or capacitor of some sort in line with the acoustic research cables and a lack of an impedance match between the ATI6012 amp inputs and the active crossover outputs. This is not a common issue, and is likely caused by the output stage of the active crossover acting as a preamp.

Either way unless it's no longer a concern. Hopefully there were no negative frequency response side effects from this radio shack cable he's using.

 

[Warpdrv]

Ok ok. Lots of you seem really fond of Salk speakers. It seems like he has no association with snake oil and I like that. I'll take a look into it. I particularly like the "surround speakers" and I wonder whether they could be done active.

I do not like the design of the soundscape, sorry.

Thanks for the links. Even that the subs do indeed look ferocious should be classified as WAF friendly. But I have two Jl subs already about which I like their form factor... at least for the moment.

I'm not a fan of the soundscapes. Either. They look fugly.
You certainly have the low end handled with the jl s great subs.
I prefer good speakers with external subs fwiw

There just isn't a speaker in my mind that can do bass better then a good quality dedicated sub crossed over properly. Good luck on your hunt.
Salk is a total no bs kinda guy who designs and builds beautiful products.
I love my sig s8's but would have no problems with my next set of speaks being Salks

 

[DenPureSound]

The Orions have always produced a hissing sound on the tweeters from about a feet away.

I've tried 4 different sets of cables for the Orion Crossover/Amp: BJC, Monoprice, Phoenix Gold, Belkin.

Still, the hissing sound would not go away. I tried rearranging the crossover, wirings, and moving the crossover completely away from the rack, but to no avail.

I just accepted the fact that the hissing sound was permanent.

DenPureSound kept raving about his Acoustic Research Master Series (AR MS) interconnects. So I bought a whole set for the Orion XO/Amp.

Last night I installed the AR MS cables.

When I powered up the Denon 5308/Orion XO/Amp, I didn't hear the usual hissing sound. I thought I had done something wrong at first. But everything was correct.

2 AR MS went from the Denon 5308 to the Orion XO.
6 AR MS + 2 AR MS Y-cables went from the Orion XO to the AT1260 amp.

So now the hissing sound from the tweeters is gone.

Well that makes me happy to see that with your new Acoustic Research Master Series cables, that the HISS is gone... Great news. BTW -- Enjoy those new Salon's, they are Gorgeous for sure, and probably sound better than they look.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do you think that these AR cables are something special or do you think that the hissing cables are just a poor design?

I remember reading at linkwitz forum other posts regarding the hissing. You are not alone, I guess.

I think the hissing is a by-product of pure analog design, especially that active analog crossover.

According to Don Naples, the slight ear-distant hissing sound is normal on all Orions.

I know that the hissing was coming from the crossover because when I turn off the XO (amp on), there was no hissing from the tweeters either.

I think those AR MS cables had extra extra shielding. They weigh a ton!!!

Yesterday a box came. It was like 16" x 16" x 16". It contained just 2 sets of AR MS Y-cables: 2 Y-cables and 2 single 25' cables. This thing weighed like 20lbs!!!

So I think the extra shielding helped removed the hissing sound somehow. I don't know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i would love to see a version of those ss jrs with the exodus anarchy 8 inch that kevin haskins is developing.

what if one puts the note of C behind it on a stage and the other puts you right next to the note of C? ;P. which is accurate?

Answer? The one with the more expensive amp.

I suppose the soundstage/image could be slightly different, but the note of "C" would sound the same in pitch.

As far as image/soundstage, I think the Salon2 & Orions sound pretty similar.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just ran Audyssey XT again

Salon2/AVP-A1HD/AT3002 Audyssey XT impression.

Audyssey had the speaker/sub distance accurately.

It set speakers to Large, XO to 80Hz.

It set the Salon L/R level to -4dB, and each of the 2 Rythmiks to -10dB.

Using my trustly Galaxy digital SPL meter, I set:

L/R level to -1dB (75dBC).

Each Sub to -3dB (78dBC).

Speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz.

On the Orion/Denon 5308, I set:

L/r level to 0dB (75dBC).

Each Sub to -3dB (78dBC).

Speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz.

I listened to 3 different songs, and I STILL could NOT tell the difference between Audyssey ON & Audyssey OFF!!!!!

So AGAIN, just like the Def Tech BP7000 & Linkwitz Orions, I set the Audyssey on the AVP-A1 & Salon2 to OFF.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hopefully there were no negative frequency response side effects from this radio shack cable he's using.

Seigfried Linkwitz and Don Naples think the slight hissing is perfectly normal and does not cause any adverse audible effects. You can't hear from > 1 ft away.

But PENG and I like to place our ears on the drivers and crank the volume up to MAX. It's a hobby of ours.

 

[Maab]

Salon2/AVP-A1HD/AT3002 Audyssey XT impression.

Audyssey had the speaker/sub distance accurately.

It set speakers to Large, XO to 80Hz.

It set the Salon L/R level to -4dB, and each of the 2 Rythmiks to -10dB.

Using my trustly Galaxy digital SPL meter, I set:

L/R level to -1dB (75dBC).

Each Sub to -3dB (78dBC).

Speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz.

On the Orion/Denon 5308, I set:

L/r level to 0dB (75dBC).

Each Sub to -3dB (78dBC).

Speakers to Small, XO @ 80Hz.

I listened to 3 different songs, and I STILL could NOT tell the difference between Audyssey ON & Audyssey OFF!!!!!

So AGAIN, just like the Def Tech BP7000 & Linkwitz Orions, I set the Audyssey on the AVP-A1 & Salon2 to OFF.

Interesting. You must have a near perfect room, what can i say.
When engage audyssey with my Denon avp I get a different sound.
You should be able to see the amount of eq applied in the "eq check". Do you see any cuts and boosts at all?

 

[Beatmatcher247]

I don't know if I agree that speaker break-in is all hocus pocus. I wouldn't say that my synch ones play a lot louder since breaking them in. The loudness is about the same but they definately can play a lot louder without any noticeable distortion after about a month of heavy use. Where before I wouldn't take it past -11dB setting on my preamp before they started to sound like they were straining a little, now I can take them to 0dB without any hint of distortion that I can perceive which is a lot louder than I can handle for anything longer than a few minutes.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When engage audyssey with my Denon avp I get a different sound.
You should be able to see the amount of eq applied in the "eq check". Do you see any cuts and boosts at all?

Interestingly, the graphs look very similar. I mean you can tell the slight difference, but overall, they look quite similar.

In the past, when I tried other room EQs in this same room with HK AVR, I could easily tell the difference - EQ was much worse than no EQ.

But with both the Denon 5308 and AVP-A1, I could not tell the difference between Audyssey ON or OFF.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. You must have a near perfect room, what can i say.

It's those green pillows by the wall I tell you!!!!!

They work like magic acoustic panels and bass traps.

 

[highfigh]

I think the hissing is a by-product of pure analog design, especially that active analog crossover.

According to Don Naples, the slight ear-distant hissing sound is normal on all Orions.

I know that the hissing was coming from the crossover because when I turn off the XO (amp on), there was no hissing from the tweeters either.

I think those AR MS cables had extra extra shielding. They weigh a ton!!!

Yesterday a box came. It was like 16" x 16" x 16". It contained just 2 sets of AR MS Y-cables: 2 Y-cables and 2 single 25' cables. This thing weighed like 20lbs!!!

So I think the extra shielding helped removed the hissing sound somehow. I don't know.

Hiss is electronic noise and cables don't produce noise, nor do speakers. Resistors can and do cause hiss. The active crossover could be the culprit- have you pressed the Direct button? The noise may be digital hash that's not being shielded by the other cables and at low levels, it can sound like hiss.

If you have the ability, check the frequency response, inductance and capacitance of the new cables.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The active crossover could be the culprit- have you pressed the Direct button? The noise may be digital hash that's not being shielded by the other cables and at low levels, it can sound like hiss.

I'm pretty sure it's the active ANALOG XO.

I have tried Pure Direct on the Denon with the Orion/XO.

The hiss sounds like the kind you hear on some analog amps and preamps.

When I had the Acurus RL-11, which was a Class-A Analog Preamp, I heard the same hissing sound. I heard the same on the Acurus 200X3 amps.

I heard the same on the Emotiva MPS-2 (200WPC x 7 amp).

That soft quiet hissing sound you ear, but only from around ear distance from the tweeters.

The AR MS cables are somehow able to reduce this hiss to a level that is so low that I cannot detect.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'm pretty sure it's the active ANALOG XO.

I have tried Pure Direct on the Denon with the Orion/XO.

The hiss sounds like the kind you hear on some analog amps and preamps.

When I had the Acurus RL-11, which was a Class-A Analog Preamp, I heard the same hissing sound. I heard the same on the Acurus 200X3 amps.

I heard the same on the Emotiva MPS-2 (200WPC x 7 amp).

That soft quiet hissing sound you ear, but only from around ear distance from the tweeters.

So I don't know how the new AR MS cables are able to reduce this hiss to a level that is so low that I cannot detect.

By rolling off the top end ;o