My Revel Salon 2 Have Arrived

Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Adam, how come your pictures of MY pictures look BETTER than my pictures??:eek::D:)

How are you able to post them as large pictures like that? :D
I have NO idea. Really. :) I just viewed your pictures, right-clicked on them to copy the image location, then pasted that in a post as an image link. I was actually kind of embarrassed that they posted as such large pictures...partly because I didn't want you to think that I was trying to outdo you. :eek:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
One thing that is immediately apparent is that the Salon2s have even more detail and resolution than anything else I've ever listened to, including the Orions!

I know everyone says this just like I've said it many times before, but on one song - New Years Prayer from Dead Zone TV soundtrack - I could actually hear something on it in the beginning that I never knew existed, and I've listened to this song many times on a lot of speakers I own and auditioned. At first I thought the sound was just something else. It's like how you hear things in the surround speakers that grab you and makes you stop everything you're doing to see what it is.:D

And I made sure I measured both speakers/same song with my Galaxy digital SPL meter to a Max Volume of 85dBA.

I know that's not loud "enough" to a lot of people, but I'm a chicken when it comes to my hearing.:eek:

The bass is deep, great, and extremely tight, but it's not the first time I've heard great bass. I can tell the real money is all in the midrange drivers and tweeters!

On acoustic guitar pieces, I could hear the fingers sliding on the guitar on the Orions and other speakers, but on the Salon2s, they seem a lot more pronounced with finer articulation and detail. It was as if the details were magnified and intensified.

I have not listened to all my songs/CDs, but at this time I'm willing to subjectively say that the Salon2s sound better than the Orion3s.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

Sith Lord
Congrats ADTG. They are very nice.:D:D:D And yes like everyone else here I hate you right now.:eek::cool:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have NO idea. Really. :) I just viewed your pictures, right-clicked on them to copy the image location, then pasted that in a post as an image link. I was actually kind of embarrassed that they posted as such large pictures...partly because I didn't want you to think that I was trying to outdo you. :eek:
I'm glad you did!

So you right click the picture itself and select "copy shortcut". Then click on the "Insert Image" Icon, right click, and select "paste":





 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I just have to try out this trick that Adam showed on another thread regarding copying an image from photobucket::D



Adam, you are THE MASTER!

I just learned 2 new tricks from you today!!!



 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Are you new to the internet? :D
I just learned how to TEXT on my phone like 2 months ago.:eek:

I mean really, I'm serious!

I don't even have a data plan on my phone.

And no, I don't have an iPhone.:D

As far as tech goes, I do know how to build a PC since I've built 5 of them, and I do have a NAS with 30TB storage.

Shoot I do not some tech stuff, but still have A LOT to learn.:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
One thing that is immediately apparent is that the Salon2s have even more detail and resolution than anything else I've ever listened to, including the Orions!

...

I have not listened to all my songs/CDs, but at this time I'm willing to subjectively say that the Salon2s sound better than the Orion3s.
I would love to hear an update of your opinion with your orions set up a bit more optimally. I know it's not practical...but..

Spread them out (they're too close.. give them 8 feet at least!)), Toe them in(like 35-40 degrees! That 8 inch woofer probably beams the midrange a bit), and most importantly, pull them well away from the wall. Right now, your rear wave is within the 15-20ms window in which our perception of hearing/detail/image/timbre etc gets mixed up. If you give it 2m, that will put the rear wave at about 24ms late, which is just perfect for "depth/space" perception instead of detail. Or maybe it'll sound exactly the same :eek:

I would put the baffle about 1.5 to 2m away from the wall. If possible, even stick something like a pair of bookshelves behind the orions, just for the test.

With that said, I'm not surprised. The salons maintain pattern control up to 10khz while the orions perhaps do not in fact (I think they're only dipole up to about 2khz or so, although they're dipole DOWN to 40hz while the salons shift from monopole to omni like most speakers... i'm curious which speaker has the better 500hz to 1khz range or so)... and you know what that means :D
 
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its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
His room is really narrow and small...he doesn't really have anywhere else to put them :x

But if you want to compare them, you should be sure you are listening at the same levels and probably swap one orion with a salon2 so they are equally far apart.
 
O

oppman99

Senior Audioholic
One thing that is immediately apparent is that the Salon2s have even more detail and resolution than anything else I've ever listened to, including the Orions!
I hate you so much! Ok, I'm really just jealous. The Salon's have been at the top of my audio dream list for a while now. Sounds like you are really enjoying them. I'd have to travel out of state just to audition them. Glad you like the new toys.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Everyone who hates ADTG right now sai 'AI'

Aaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! :D

But if you want to compare them, you should be sure you are listening at the same levels and probably swap one orion with a salon2 so they are equally far apart.
Dunno if it's a fair comparision at 85db... his salons are probably getting like 300+ wpc and his orions are getting like 60 wpc... the difference in amp power might be enough to change the dynamic range. 85db average volume could still have like 100+db crests and that might make the 60 watt amps, with all the eq etc, clip.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would love to hear an update of your opinion with your orions set up a bit more optimally. I know it's not practical...but..

Spread them out (they're too close.. give them 8 feet at least!)), Toe them in(like 35-40 degrees! That 8 inch woofer probably beams the midrange a bit), and most importantly, pull them well away from the wall. Right now, your rear wave is within the 15-20ms window in which our perception of hearing/detail/image/timbre etc gets mixed up. If you give it 2m, that will put the rear wave at about 24ms late, which is just perfect for "depth/space" perception instead of detail. Or maybe it'll sound exactly the same :eek:

I would put the baffle about 1.5 to 2m away from the wall. If possible, even stick something like a pair of bookshelves behind the orions, just for the test.

With that said, I'm not surprised. The salons maintain pattern control up to 10khz while the orions perhaps do not in fact (I think they're only dipole up to about 2khz or so, although they're dipole DOWN to 40hz while the salons shift from monopole to omni like most speakers... i'm curious which speaker has the better 500hz to 1khz range or so)... and you know what that means :D
That sounds like a lot of work!:D

Right now the Orions are about 3ft from the front front wall and side walls.

When I was experimenting with placement, I had the Orions about 8ft and 9ft apart. But it seems to me like they sound better not being that wide apart.

I'm constantly telling my wife we need a 4,000sf house so that I can have 750sf HT room.:D

Then I could pull the Orions 6 ft from the walls.:D

I'll have to live with the Salon2s awhile to get a much better feel.

Perhaps the Orions do have a slight edge on the image/soundstage over the Salon2s.

But the Salon2s have an edge on the clarity and detail of midrange/tweeter and impact on bass.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Everyone who hates ADTG right now sai 'AI'

Aaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Dunno if it's a fair comparision at 85db... his salons are probably getting like 300+ wpc and his orions are getting like 60 wpc... the difference in amp power might be enough to change the dynamic range. 85db average volume could still have like 100+db crests and that might make the 60 watt amps, with all the eq etc, clip.
But aren't the Orions getting 60WPC x 4ch per speaker = 240WPC per speaker?:D

You guys think I need to up the volume to 90dBA?:D

You know Seigfried Linkwitz doesn't like to use bigger amps than that.

He even says if you use more powerful amps, you do it at your own risk.:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
But aren't the Orions getting 60WPC x 4ch per speaker = 240WPC per speaker?:D
Each Orion speaker has four parts

Two woofers operating from ~25hz to ~120hz
One Mid-bass operating from ~120hz to ~1.4khz
Two parallel out-of-phase tweeters operating from ~1.4khz to ~20khz

Now, the woofers are operating in the same frequency range, so we can say that one woofer fed 1 watt has a sensitivity of 88.4db. Two woofers together, fed 1 watt each, have a sensitivity of 91.4db. Two woofers together, fed 60 watts each, will have an output of 109.2 db @ 1m. Now bear in mind they not actually be getting full power each at some frequencies, depending on where their impedance dips, the amps would be current limited rather than voltage limited. If the impedance dipped to 4 ohms, but the amps can only produce for example 100 watts into 4 ohms, then you've got a slight limitation - the speaker WANTS 120 watts to hit that 109.2db @ 1m - so it won't produce that full output! And like any woofer without a port, there's an eventual 12db/octave rolloff that the active filter has to correct, so it will lose efficiency as frequency drops.

The midbass has a sensitivity of 88db. Fed 60 watts, it can produce 105.8 db @ 1m.

The tweeters have a sensitivity of 89db. Now the orion uses two tweeters in parallel. This is essentially going to be a nominal 3 ohm load unless I am mistaken. Looking at the power cube of the 6012 at 1% THD



We can see that the power seems to drop off below 4 ohms. I'd roughly estimate about 95-100 watts at 0.1% THD into 3 ohms.

Now although the tweeters are in parallel, they're probably NOT producing any combined output because they are opposite polarity and there is a wide baffle in between, and they are facing opposite directions. So we can treat the sensitivity of the front tweeter as 89db/2.83v/m. The rear tweeter has a resistor in series so its sensitivity is down to 86db/2.83v/m Our amplifier limitation on the tweeter is about 106db.

So even though there's four amp sections, the only passband where they would combine for added output is in the bass.

Now there's two other issues with the orion.

First of all, the woofers are in free air. There is no box restricting their movement with acoustic suspension - their low end efficiency is improved because of this. Because of this, a low frequency tone can cause them to move quite a bit. At low levels the improved efficiency is a good thing, but with too much power you might bottom the woofer!

Second, the Orion is a dipole. It has a lot of active equalization. At a certain frequency, dipoles have acoustic cancellations leading to 6db/octave losses (along with the eventual natural 12db/octave rolloff of any driver)

That means, if the orions midbasses are even 6db down at 120hz, it has to draw more amplifier power as prescribed by the active crossover boost. So you can't expect the full output predicted earlier. There may be anywhere from 3db to 12db of boost at a given frequency. I don't know how much to be honest.

Combining the above issues, you can kind of see that the orion can't use too much power because of mechanical limitations, but it also has limitations where it might not be all too acoustically efficient at certain frequencies, no matter how much the cones are moving in and out.

How about the salon?

Harman's website states it as measured at 86.4 db /2.83v/m into 4 pi space. It may be more in the bass when you factor in that you've got a floor underneath you. and probably walls behind it.

It also states impedance as 6Ω (Nominal), 3.7Ω (Minimum).

If your amp is 300 watts into 8 ohms and 550 watts into 4 ohms, then let's pretend it's 550 watts into the minimum impedance of the salon2.

That means that as long as the drivers can handle the max power, you can roughly squeeze about 110.8 db out of the salons at minimum impedance maybe a db or two more at other frequencies. It also uses a downwards firing port to augment bass response without EQ boost.

If I had to guess, that's probably about 8-12db louder at points. That probably accounts for the subjective bass slam of the salons you think is better. With that said I don't know which one is giving you better in room bass response in terms of quality. The dipole but less output bass of the orions or the monopole but more output bass of the salons.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Salon & Orion Undressed

Okay, thanks to Adam again, here are some pics of the speakers without grills:











 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow, I knew you sucked but I didn't know you sucked this hard. :D

Awesome system/s. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Because of this, a low frequency tone can cause them to move quite a bit. At low levels the improved efficiency is a good thing, but with too much power you might bottom the woofer!

...With that said I don't know which one is giving you better in room bass response in terms of quality. The dipole but less output bass of the orions or the monopole but more output bass of the salons.
I have never seen any speaker vibrate as much as the Orions when there is a lot of bass going on.:D

But the bass is quite tight and powerful for music, just not enough to handle movies.

The Salon2s vibrate only slightly during the same bass content. It does appear the Salon can output more bass, and it is also extremely tight. For movies, it still cannot compete with the Rythmik subs, but the Salon does not distort on the bass like the Orion for that loud deep subsonic bass.

What do I mean by distort on the Orions? The bass sounds like some dull sound tapping, not metal tapping, but like something wood is taping on each other. I hear this if I let the Orions run full range on movies like INCEPTION. The Salons do not have this issue.

They are both extremely great speakers. Just don't let the Orions run full range during action movies.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
As much as we hate the guy, I must offer my sincere congratulations to ADTG for obvious reasons. From all signs, those speakers are among the best sounding ones available at any price. They look beautiful also, but I think the B&W with the Marlan head looks a little better. I know I am the minority on this.
 
avliner

avliner

Audioholic Chief
Hey ADTG,

wow, congrats on your new speaker setup, just awesome!!

Is it correct to say - in your setup - to each his own?? :eek:;)
 
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