Aim my ears for in home auditions

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Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
I must say I'm now also very interested in the GoldenEar Triton Twos. Their price is close to SongTowers with the ribbon tweeter. I wonder if I'd have placement issues in my room (in my corner)?
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
What about Revel, KEF, Dali, & Martin Logan?
Revel F12s I've read much about and would have them on a short list except no local dealers I believe. Dali I think is pricey? ML Motion10s I've read about (I think they share a similar tweeter with the Triton Twos?)...

When I cut to the chase, what's lacking in the speakers I've had (since the AR91s) is slam when jamming rock, and incredibly lifelike drums and especially cymbals (I hate tinny and hollow, along with an almost bad-DSP-like fake-sounding splashing cymbal rapidly disappearing "sustain"). I basically refrain from turning up the volume much on rock, alt-rock in 2-channel listening mode since it's an unsatisfying experience. What I have does fairly well for small jazz groups, electronica, and female vocals. I'm very much into female vocalists and will be highly critical of any new speaker's ability to sound divine playing Diana Krall, Sara McLachlan, Dido, Aimee Mann, Kate Bush, Beth Orton.

Can I get slam in a standmount in my price range? I'd love to have the sound of a real drumkit in my space, and deep, wide soundstage. Keep in mind a rear ported speaker may not excel with my restricted placement of the left main speaker in my room (it's going to be positioned on a 45 degree angle to the side wall (in a corner, within 6-8 inches of the side wall).
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
The Mirage OMD-28s for under $2800 a pair seems an amazing buy? I didn't read much about this except in the avforums Mirage thread (where they're healthily drinking the Mirage koolaid - not that I have any idea how it tastes ;o). These listed for $7500 before discontinued.

Placement issues surface for these....
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The Mirage OMD-28s for under $2800 a pair seems an amazing buy? I didn't read much about this except in the avforums Mirage thread (where they're healthily drinking the Mirage koolaid - not that I have any idea how it tastes ;o). These listed for $7500 before discontinued.

Placement issues surface for these....
If you sit down to do some serious music listening - than you will
miss out, on a precise central image. I use to own some Mirage
speakers, and that did disturb me.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Slam, 'drumkit in the room' sound from a stand mount? Diffucult task.

Gedlee Abbeys come to mind. Or Klipsch Heresey III's. Neither would require more amplification than you currently have, but each would require some serious subwoofage.
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Slam, 'drumkit in the room' sound from a stand mount? Diffucult task.

Gedlee Abbeys come to mind. Or Klipsch Heresey III's. Neither would require more amplification than you currently have, but each would require some serious subwoofage.
The Abbeys are enticing but $5K the pair I believe. When I first scanned the Gedlee site and a DIY forum I stumbled into a few days back, I became caught up in the buzz about 'em, then I scanned the price list and mistakenly thought a pair was in my realm, but not....

Those Klipsch look intriguing...., someone on Amazon reviewed 'em and thought the build quality had declined significantly since the earlier model days?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
The Abbeys are enticing but $5K the pair I believe. When I first scanned the Gedlee site and a DIY forum I stumbled into a few days back, I became caught up in the buzz about 'em, then I scanned the price list and mistakenly thought a pair was in my realm, but not....

Those Klipsch look intriguing...., someone on Amazon reviewed 'em and thought the build quality had declined significantly since the earlier model days?
Abbeys come in kits, too. Unsure of price, but those may still be within striking distance of your budget.

The new Hereseys are still hand made with loving pride in Hope, Arkansas, and are quite well done, if you like the more traditional aesthetic. They use mdf instead of ply these days, crossovers have evolved over the years, and drivers are different than the old ones. The current HIIIs are pretty darn good if you ask me. Unfortunately, places to audition are few and far between, but they're definitely worth a look.
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Fritz Carbon 7? I also read about Focal 1007's with berylium tweeter that a pro drummer says gets the cymbals right. Any other Focals? Is used my best bet?
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Fritz Carbon 7? I also read about Focal 1007's with berylium tweeter that a pro drummer says gets the cymbals right. Any other Focals? Is used my best bet?
Even the Focal 800 series, has a real good tweeter and midrange.
They are one of my favorite tweeters, at that price point. Look for
used on the 1007 (berylium) series - and keep the 800 series on
your list.
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Looking at resale value only, really-used to almost-new, what models in which lines garner fast resale with maximum value retention? Say under (current value) $3K a pair?
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
But I can comment for Salk speakers because I am very familiar with his products, and you can find nearly all the drivers he uses from suppliers who sell directly to individuals like myself. Jim Salk may negoitate a better price with a larger purchase, but it is still possible to estimate to cost of the parts he uses. One of the reasons why I bought SongTowers is that they would have cost me over $800 in parts even if I knew what the crossover design was (I didn't). And the cabinet finishing was a much better quality than anything I could do. His mark up was such that his speakers are a genuine bargain. His prices have risen since 2007, but they are still a bargain.
Did you demo the ribbon tweeter and dome tweeter? I've read the ribbon has a vertical dispersion restriction. When sitting for critical listening the ribbon is the way to go I'm convinced. But if I was up in loft above the room in which these new speakers sit, or meandering about the lower level in the open floorplan, would I notice a drop off in HF? I'm thinking not, but have to ask.

I've also seen Salk do front ports instead of standard rear ports in his STs to accommodate users (but that look was not for me, since the grill did not go low enough to cover the port), and for my placement I think a rear port will result in far less sound optimization (not so much crossed over at 80hZ perhaps, but in direct stereo mode with speakers going full range, I think it might).????
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Did you demo the ribbon tweeter and dome tweeter? I've read the ribbon has a vertical dispersion restriction. When sitting for critical listening the ribbon is the way to go I'm convinced. But if I was up in loft above the room in which these new speakers sit, or meandering about the lower level in the open floorplan, would I notice a drop off in HF? I'm thinking not, but have to ask.
I own the dome tweeter version, but I have heard both. To my ears, the difference is subtle. When I was able to directly compare them, the ribbon tweeter version was just a bit cleaner sounding. But I am still happy with what I have. Whether it is worth the extra cost is up to you.

The talk of limited vertical dispersion of the ribbon tweeters, at least for those ribbon tweets used by Salk, is exaggerated, in my opinion. I would not worry about that.

With any MTM speaker, when the listener stands so that his ears are above the upper midwoofer (and, of course, also above the tweeter), there is a noticeable drop in upper midrange frequencies. This is not caused by the tweeter's limited vertical dispersion. The crossover frequency in the ST is about 2600 Hz, which is higher than most people realize. What they are hearing is cancellation between the two midwoofers.

If you sit with your ears at tweeter level, both midwoofers are the same distance to your ears. There is no cancellation between them. If you stand up, the upper midwoof is closer and the lower midwoof is farther away from your ears. At some frequency, depending on the relative distances, the signals from the two midwoofs will cancel, resulting in altered sound balance. I think this is what people are hearing, but mistakenly attribute it to the tweeter.

Again, I think this effect, although real, is not a problem. Just to describe it in words, makes it seem worse than it really is. It makes the speakers sound a bit warmer, but not unpleasant. I often listen while walking around doing other things. It does not make Frank Sinatra sound like Barry Manilow :D!

I've also seen Salk do front ports instead of standard rear ports in his STs to accommodate users (but that look was not for me, since the grill did not go low enough to cover the port), and for my placement I think a rear port will result in far less sound optimization (not so much crossed over at 80hZ perhaps, but in direct stereo mode with speakers going full range, I think it might).????
I have done direct comparisons of my STs placed over 1 foot away from the wall behind them and placed as close as possible to that wall. There was absolutely no problem with bass sound in any of those positions. The ST designer, and others, have confirmed this. I keep mine about 8-10" away from the wall.

I think this is a non-problem for speakers with a transmission line type bass alignment. They do not suffer from the same problems as most ported bass speakers. Again, words do not suffice - if you haven't heard a speaker with that design, you owe it to yourself to hear it. Once you hear them, you will understand better. Before owning STs, I had only known sealed or ported bass, and wouldn't have believed there was something else that (in my opinion) is better sounding.

Salk is a custom builder. If you want grills to cover front-mounted ports, he will do that - for a price :). But I think the standard rear ports are fine for nearly all situations.

You are welcome to come hear my STs. If you can bring your M22s, it would be a very interesting comparison. Dennis Murphy, about 15 miles away from me, can demo the ribbon ST for you, if you want to hear them.
 
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C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the offer! My folks still live in Alexandria and I do try to get up there as often as I can. We can coordinate something between Dennis, yourself and I. I'm thinking late July right now.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for the offer! My folks still live in Alexandria and I do try to get up there as often as I can. We can coordinate something between Dennis, yourself and I. I'm thinking late July right now.
Late July might be good.

Dennis will be very busy the weekend of July 8-10. He will be representing Salk and himself at an audio show in Rockville, MD, the Capital Audiofest. Jim Salk says he will be there as well. The last I heard, they will have the Salk SoundScape 10 and two of Dennis's new designs that he will sell under the name of Philharmonic Audio.

Come to that show if you're interested, but I'm guessing that Dennis may be very busy then. There should be plenty of speakers at the show, but you may find a lot high-priced horn speakers and other strange stuff. It is about 2-3 miles away from me, so I plan to go.
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Anybody demo Totem Hawks, perhaps even compared them to the STs?
I can get a very nice used pair of Hawks shipped for $1550.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Anybody demo Totem Hawks, perhaps even compared them to the STs?
I can get a very nice used pair of Hawks shipped for $1550.
I'd avoid the Hawks for that price. In another recent thread, someone asked what he might get to replace his Hawks, and I commented that I liked those speakers. Well, I remembered wrong :eek:. A number of years ago, I heard the Totem Forests, and thought they were very expensive but sounded decently balanced. The Hawks' bass was too light. I had forgotten that. That was long before the SongTowers existed.

A speaker that I have heard more recently (about a year ago), that I do like, is the Joseph Audio RM25XL. I can't say it's just like or even similar to the SongTower, only that I liked it. At $4400 retail it is double the cost of the ST :eek:. It didn't come close to the sound of the $4200 Salk HT2-TL.
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Fritz Carbon 7s?

I mentioned the Fritz Carbon 7s in another post. I like the Sonicflare writeup of the speaks. I'm bringing in a pair to demo in home.

Aesthetics aren't nearly as meaningful to me, given the Salk's finishes are exemplary, but I've sliced and diced so many user experiences with Salk and Fritz models, and I can't help but preliminarily conclude I may be better off with a new $1000 sub and the Carbon 7s versus the HT2-TLs based on price only (and I see the STs with ribbon tweeter are the same price as the Carbon 7s plus new $1000 woofer). I feel the HT2-TLs beckoning me much more strongly than the ST offerings, and not being a pure 2-channel champion myself, I'm just having a hard time justifying $4200.

Didn't find much about the C7s here..., perhaps I'll fill in some later.
Maybe I'll put out an offer for all to bring their Salks to my beach home, and I'll put you up for a night or 2 depending on how much I like the Salks ;o)
I'll even do all the heavy lifting once you arrive!

Based on my exhaustive searches I may soon be doing the first C7s vs Salks A/B'ing.

Stay tuned....
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I mentioned the Fritz Carbon 7s in another post. I like the Sonicflare writeup of the speaks. I'm bringing in a pair to demo in home.

Aesthetics aren't nearly as meaningful to me, given the Salk's finishes are exemplary, but I've sliced and diced so many user experiences with Salk and Fritz models, and I can't help but preliminarily conclude I may be better off with a new $1000 sub and the Carbon 7s versus the HT2-TLs based on price only (and I see the STs with ribbon tweeter are the same price as the Carbon 7s plus new $1000 woofer). I feel the HT2-TLs beckoning me much more strongly than the ST offerings, and not being a pure 2-channel champion myself, I'm just having a hard time justifying $4200.

Didn't find much about the C7s here..., perhaps I'll fill in some later.
Maybe I'll put out an offer for all to bring their Salks to my beach home, and I'll put you up for a night or 2 depending on how much I like the Salks ;o)
I'll even do all the heavy lifting once you arrive!

Based on my exhaustive searches I may soon be doing the first C7s vs Salks A/B'ing.

Stay tuned....
I've heard good things about the Fritz Carbon speakers, but I've never listened to them. The drivers are good quality, so it all comes down to the voicing that the designer imparts into the crossover. That really has been known to make a big difference. When you hear them, let us know what you think.

I thought you said earlier that your existing subwoofer is decent and that you would keep it. I doubt if spending $1000 on that will make much of a difference. I suggest you keep your subwoofer, for the time being, and limit your choices to speakers only. Try to keep your choices simple.

Try to listen to some speakers. It's easy to over-think all this, and without hearing some speakers it can easily get to be too much thinking ;).
 
C

Chinaski

Audioholic Intern
Now in home: Martin Logan ElectroMotions

Put the Carbon 7s on hold for now to first pick up the Martin Logan ElectroMotions (according to the owner's manual they want a 72 hour (@ 90dB!) break-in before you begin to critically listen to them -- they basically tell you don't bother to position them well initially, do it after you get 72 hours in). Holy crap! I seldom listen to my tunes that loud! But I have been these past few days, well, I'm upstairs in the loft mostly. The sound is quite, shall we just say, domicile-filling.

Now I expect to have these "broken in" in another week and then I'd be ecstatic to bring these to a Salk owner's home to do some A/Bing.

Early impressions? Well produced recordings are really nice. The low end punches much more, and seemingly extends lower, than I thought it would (rated down to 42Hz). And, of course, I've spent a couple hours critically listening still (how else will I know the sound improved?). These, so far, are not kind to poor-to-average recordings, but we'll give those sh*tty CDs a spin after 72 hours!

The speakers are quite placement sensitive, but with a flashlight in hand you can be 90% there in mere moments.

I had no idea just how excellent electrostatics can be....
 
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