Amp Suggestions for Denon AVR-3311CI

C

Chicagorep

Junior Audioholic
We've been using a 3311 paired with a Parasound 5250 to show how much better a system can sound when paired with a quality amp. Did you know Denon is the most used Pre amp but most of those sales are their AVRs used as Pre's.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Denon was OK but I felt it was a little weak with some Big Punch for Power when driving 5.1, but after getting the EMOTIVA XPA-5 it made a Huge Difference in both Stereo modes, and movies sound super clean in dts HD Master Audio - my favorite format.

I know there is a whole camp that says the Denon AVR-3311CI should have enough power output, but after adding the EMO amp it did make a huge difference, and will not go back to a straight AVR again, except for a very small room.
A lot of people feel that adding the amps improve the sound quality, especially in large rooms and at louder volumes. It makes sense to me.:D

By the way, I saw a "Like New" condition Denon AVR3310 (full warranty, not refurbish since I hate refurbish) sold directly by Amazon Warehouse for $459, so I bought it to upgrade my AVR391 in the family room to power the Infinity P362s.

These days mainly my 8 & 9 yr old daughters watch movies and Netflix streams in our family room on the Mitsubishi 73" DLP HDTV. The AVR391 seems adequate enough in this room, which is 18'L x 20'W x 10'H. But upgraditis got the best of me again.:D

I will not be adding any amps to the Denon 3310, however.:D
 
K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
Arcam P1000 7x135w - under a grand on audiogon or ebay
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Arcam P1000 7x135w
The Denon 3311 is already 125WPC of Denon amp.

I don't see how 10 more watts of Arcam amp is going to do anything.

And I don't see how the name Arcam will magically make the amp sound better either.:D

In addition, the last time I checked Home Theater Mag, Arcam hasn't done too great in terms of measured specs either.

Clean power is clean power.

I think if he is getting an amp, it needs to be at least double the amount - so 250WPC would be good.:D
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
We've been using a 3311 paired with a Parasound 5250 to show how much better a system can sound when paired with a quality amp. Did you know Denon is the most used Pre amp but most of those sales are their AVRs used as Pre's.
I am sure the Parasound would be very clean power, but at $2850 for the 5250v2, it was to steep for me. So I went with Emotiva XPA-5 at $899, and never looked back, and am very happy using the Denon AVR-3311CI as the Pre/Pro, and let the EMO do the heavy lifting especially when driving five channels.

The Denon AVR-3311CI, does well in power out for 2 Channels, but where it lugs down is when all five channels are driven in the HT DSP modes. But that problem goes away once a 200W+ RMS/Ch. x 5 AMP is added to the mix. Love the Denon AVR, and I certainly can see why many/most are using it as a Superb PRE/PRO solution, as it has a lot of bells and whistles, and sounds Superb.

Am researching the NEW Denon AVR-3312CI for another room in estate for HT. But again, wish there was a solution in an AVR that could drive Continuously 125W+ / Channel for the HT modes with out lugging down, and was less than $1K.

All EARS for ideas here...Please chime in w/your thoughts.

Thanks - DPS
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I am sure the Parasound would be very clean power, but at $2850 for the 5250v2, it was to steep for me. So I went with Emotiva XPA-5 at $899, and never looked back, and am very happy using the Denon AVR-3311CI as the Pre/Pro, and let the EMO do the heavy lifting especially when driving five channels.

The Denon AVR-3311CI, does well in power out for 2 Channels, but where it lugs down is when all five channels are driven in the HT DSP modes. But that problem goes away once a 200W+ RMS/Ch. x 5 AMP is added to the mix. Love the Denon AVR, and I certainly can see why many/most are using it as a Superb PRE/PRO solution, as it has a lot of bells and whistles, and sounds Superb.

Am researching the NEW Denon AVR-3312CI for another room in estate for HT. But again, wish there was a solution in an AVR that could drive Continuously 125W+ / Channel for the HT modes with out lugging down, and was less than $1K.

All EARS for ideas here...Please chime in w/your thoughts.

Thanks - DPS
Perhaps a brand new Denon AVR-4310 for $900 (free s/h) will do?

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR4310CI-7-1-Channel-Multi-Zone-Connectivity/dp/B002AKKFQC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1304016491&sr=8-1
 
K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
I have to give an additional +1 to the Arcam P1000 for consideration. The new Integra 9ch amp appears to be a stellar performer as well, but will run about $1500 pre-owned. I have only heard the Integra amp in a test rig at my dealer's showroom, seems impressive for the cost. But I have no direct experience with it in my home.

I've run a Theta CasaNova,Theta CBIII, Anthem AVM50 and Integra 80.1 / 80.2 against the Arcam p1000 mated to my Genesis G6 speakers, the Arcam will faithfully reproduce whatever you send through it and it does a walloping job of driving the G6 towers and centers. The Genesis speakers average a 5 ohm load, no issues with the Arcam. And it runs surprisingly cool.

I'm only posting from direct experience with the actual equipment, no magic or anything else. I bought the Arcam initially on the advice of my AV dealer who could have easily pushed Parasound or Theta amps on me for more than double the price.

As for needing double the power, there are a lot of other factors to consider such as how sensitive your speakers are per watt/db, length of speaker runs, the actual current of the amplifier's output (some 100w high current amps can drive harder than say a 200w amp with low current output or capacity), what your intended average DB listening level will be, and how large of a space you will be filling with sound. In most homes you're not going to be listening at a constant db level of 75 or more. In a theater or extremely large room, perhaps so. You just need to make sure the amp you choose can handle the transient peaks etc in dynamic soundtracks at your intended listening levels- and most of those peaks are going to be directed to LFE and sub amps. That said, in most setups, going from a 125w amp to a 250w dedicated amp of equal quality will not make any noticeable difference at your average home volume level (even on the loud side). Going from a receiver's internal amp of 125wpc to a dedicated quality amp of 125wpc will make a difference, because the dedicated amp typically has higher current output and reserve capacity to handle the demanding peaks- which on the lesser receiver's amplifier equates to flabby sound.

While the Arcam is certainly not be the end all of multichannel amps, for under a grand it is a solid choice. You could start there and move up to the $3k range amps, but I'll bet you 10 to 1 you won't notice a difference unless at that time you also upgrade your pre/pro, transport, cables, interconnects and speakers to a higher quality level on par with or better than the new amplifier.

Oh, and don't buy an Arcam receiver, they are indeed horrible :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
going from a 125w amp to a 250w dedicated amp of equal quality will not make any noticeable difference at your average home volume level (even on the loud side)
But going from a 125WPC Denon to 135WPC Arcam will make a difference?:confused:
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
AcuDefTechGuy,

Thanks for your input, but knowing my room size is 16' x 18' x 9', and running five Infinity speakers (Towers FL/FR), Center Channel, two surrounds bookcase style, and the one powered sub, was thinking along the lines of the Denon AVR-3310CI, at Amazon for $449, and later if I feel I need an external amp which I doubt it does has preouts to drive it correct?

What am I losing at $449 for the 3310CI vs. the 4310CI at $900??

The 3310CI is Half the Price of the 4310CI, and I will never drive over 7 Channels in that room for HT primary, and Stereo secondary. Knowing you picked up the 3310CI, does it have the Audyssey MultEQ XT built-in, and will it process the latest BD Audio formats, like dts HD Master Audio?

Maybe the 3310CI would be the best fit for the price, what do you think?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
AcuDefTechGuy,

Thanks for your input, but knowing my room size is 16' x 18' x 9', and running five Infinity speakers (Towers FL/FR), Center Channel, two surrounds bookcase style, and the one powered sub, was thinking along the lines of the Denon AVR-3310CI, at Amazon for $449, and later if I feel I need an external amp which I doubt it does has preouts to drive it correct?

What am I losing at $449 for the 3310CI vs. the 4310CI at $900??

The 3310CI is Half the Price of the 4310CI, and I will never drive over 7 Channels in that room for HT primary, and Stereo secondary. Knowing you picked up the 3310CI, does it have the Audyssey MultEQ XT built-in, and will it process the latest BD Audio formats, like dts HD Master Audio?

Maybe the 3310CI would be the best fit for the price, what do you think?
I would get the AVR3310 for $449 as well!:D

That is an excellent price if I do say so myself.:D
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
A lot of people feel that adding the amps improve the sound quality, especially in large rooms and at louder volumes. It makes sense to me.:D

By the way, I saw a "Like New" condition Denon AVR3310 (full warranty, not refurbish since I hate refurbish) sold directly by Amazon Warehouse for $459, so I bought it to upgrade my AVR391 in the family room to power the Infinity P362s.

These days mainly my 8 & 9 yr old daughters watch movies and Netflix streams in our family room on the Mitsubishi 73" DLP HDTV. The AVR391 seems adequate enough in this room, which is 18'L x 20'W x 10'H. But upgraditis got the best of me again.:D

I will not be adding any amps to the Denon 3310, however.:D
That's the same one I am looking at -- 3310CI like new for $459. Assuming you have it hooked up now what do you like/dislike about it? Funny, your running Infinity speakers like I also -- which I think sound great for HT Movies, but to me leave a lot to desire for Stereo vs. my Klipsch Reference series.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I love it. My room is 18' x 20' x 10' (open on 3 sides). My Infinity P362s sound fantastic for both music 2.0 and movies. Clear sound. Decent bass. Great imaging. I love the sound of the Denon.
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
I would get the AVR3310 for $449 as well!:D

That is an excellent price if I do say so myself.:D
But what am I losing with the 3310 vs. the 3311 (~$800) or 3312 ($999) Coming soon? What features do I lose at the $459 price? I don't see MultCHStereo mode on it? Was this added in 2011 Models?

I am Very Happy with the 3311CI... love it after the Emotiva XPA-5 amp addition. Have no complaints about it, except for the Manual.
 
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K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
But going from a 125WPC Denon to 135WPC Arcam will make a difference?:confused:
Sorry if I wasn't clear on my thoughts. My statement is certainly subjective to several factors. I'm speaking in very general terms. Let's say you have a decent sounding receiver with internal amplification (OP's Denon in this case). And let's say you just added some rocking new speakers that demand some juice. Your cables, interconnects, transport, etc. are all of decent quality. You now notice that when watching movies or cranking the music in your somewhat large living room, that your new speakers sound a bit weak on the bass and maybe a bit strained at upper volume passages. It's just not 'crisp' I guess is the best way to put it and you're hearing a lot of the speaker along with the sound coming out of it.

Generally, and I want to stress 'generally', that would indicate the amplifier is not outputting enough current to adequately maintain the drivers in a linear motion during peak moments, and the amplifier does not have enough reserve capacity to deal with heavy / fast bass transitions (rapid 50 cal gun fire, cannons, explosions, etc), or, loud very full vocal passages containing a wide dynamic range (opera etc).

In order to fit a 7 ch amp inside a compact receiver, the manufacturer will have to do away with things like large capacitors, separate power supplies, and large toroidal transformers. Sure, you get the claimed "125wpc", but is that rated as sustainable from 20hz to 20khz on all channels at once, two channels at once? Is there enough juice and reserve capacity behind the rated wattage to adequately drive all output channels or even stereo channels simultaneously? I would have to say in most cases no, as these products are geared towards the entry level to mid level AV buyer. Buying a combo receiver/amp is a rite of passage for just about every seasoned AV enthusiast- It is a good an reasonably priced way to break into the world of fine sound and home theater. Ask anyone here who owns a stratospheric system and you'll get a "yes" that they owned a receiver / amp combo at one time.

This is where moving to a separate dedicated amplifier comes into play, as a quality amp will account for all of the above limiting factors and then some. Adding a separate amp is a good evolutionary next step and eventually the next purchase will be a quality dedicated processor. A well built 50wx2 dedicated stereo amplifier from say Mark Levinson, McIntosh, etc. will blow doors on a 200wpc rated chain store brand receiver in terms of sheer power and delivery of it to the speaker, constantly, across the full frequency range and across all connected output channels.

In this case yes, a dedicated Arcam amplifier will indeed out perform the internal Denon receiver amplifier section, *assuming* the attached speakers are of good quality and are capable of reproducing the increased difference in sustained power. If the speakers are not of good quality, they will distort and sound flabby regardless of what they are attached to- Essentially they will only output what is within the range of their capability.

Make sense?
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But what am I losing with the 3310 vs. the 3311 (~$800) or 3312 ($999) Coming soon? What features do I lose at the $459 price? I don't see MultCHStereo mode on it? Was this added in 2011 Models?

I am Very Happy with the 3311CI... love it after the Emotiva XPA-5 amp addition. Have no complaints about it, except for the Manual.
I guess it depends on what features are important to you.

For someone like me who would rather own a $30K Mark Levinson Class-A Pure Analog Preamp, none of the features mean anything, with the exception of HDMI, DTS-HDMA, & TrueHD.:D

So, of course, I don't think you gain anything with the 3311 & 3312 over the 3310.

But to folks who believe in Audyssey and all those other features, the 3312 means more.
 
K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
....For someone like me who would rather own a $30K Mark Levinson Class-A Pure Analog Preamp, none of the features mean anything, with the exception of HDMI, DTS-HDMA, & TrueHD.:D.....

Very nice choice!!! :D
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
But what am I losing with the 3310 vs. the 3311 (~$800) or 3312 ($999) Coming soon? What features do I lose at the $459 price? I don't see MultCHStereo mode on it? Was this added in 2011 Models?

I am Very Happy with the 3311CI... love it after the Emotiva XPA-5 amp addition. Have no complaints about it, except for the Manual.
After additional research the Denon AVR-3310CI has MultCh Stereo DSP mode built-in. It does not have Audyssey MultEQ XT, just MultEQ without the XT feature (whatever that does). The 3310CI has had A LOT of problems with the Network Interface Card (NIC) internally within per other users.

AcuDefTech -- are you using the features of the 3310 Networking (like streaming in Napster and/or NetFlix)?
Have you found that the EQ without the Audyssey MultEQ XT is any worse off or ??
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
Sorry if I wasn't clear on my thoughts. My statement is certainly subjective to several factors. I'm speaking in very general terms. Let's say you have a decent sounding receiver with internal amplification (OP's Denon in this case). And let's say you just added some rocking new speakers that demand some juice. Your cables, interconnects, transport, etc. are all of decent quality. You now notice that when watching movies or cranking the music in your somewhat large living room, that your new speakers sound a bit weak on the bass and maybe a bit strained at upper volume passages. It's just not 'crisp' I guess is the best way to put it and you're hearing a lot of the speaker along with the sound coming out of it.

Generally, and I want to stress 'generally', that would indicate the amplifier is not outputting enough current to adequately maintain the drivers in a linear motion during peak moments, and the amplifier does not have enough reserve capacity to deal with heavy / fast bass transitions (rapid 50 cal gun fire, cannons, explosions, etc), or, loud very full vocal passages containing a wide dynamic range (opera etc).

In order to fit a 7 ch amp inside a compact receiver, the manufacturer will have to do away with things like large capacitors, separate power supplies, and large toroidal transformers. Sure, you get the claimed "125wpc", but is that rated as sustainable from 20hz to 20khz on all channels at once, two channels at once? Is there enough juice and reserve capacity behind the rated wattage to adequately drive all output channels or even stereo channels simultaneously? I would have to say in most cases no, as these products are geared towards the entry level to mid level AV buyer. Buying a combo receiver/amp is a rite of passage for just about every seasoned AV enthusiast- It is a good an reasonably priced way to break into the world of fine sound and home theater. Ask anyone here who owns a stratospheric system and you'll get a "yes" that they owned a receiver / amp combo at one time.

This is where moving to a separate dedicated amplifier comes into play, as a quality amp will account for all of the above limiting factors and then some. Adding a separate amp is a good evolutionary next step and eventually the next purchase will be a quality dedicated processor. A well built 50wx2 dedicated stereo amplifier from say Mark Levinson, McIntosh, etc. will blow doors on a 200wpc rated chain store brand receiver in terms of sheer power and delivery of it to the speaker, constantly, across the full frequency range and across all connected output channels.

In this case yes, a dedicated Arcam amplifier will indeed out perform the internal Denon receiver amplifier section, *assuming* the attached speakers are of good quality and are capable of reproducing the increased difference in sustained power. If the speakers are not of good quality, they will distort and sound flabby regardless of what they are attached to- Essentially they will only output what is within the range of their capability.

Make sense?
Driving two channels you might get 125W RMS per Channel into 8Ω Continuously, but not even close with all channels driven (ACD) at once. The Denon AVR-3311CI only weighs around 27#, so you are right that the Xformer, Sec. Caps are really scaled down to fit in that weight profile, and there is nothing like an external amp (70-80#'s) when driving 5 or 7 Channels watching/listening to a Movie in dts HD MA format.

The Emotiva XPA-5 at $899 proved that to me, even with Klipsch Reference speakers at 98db - 1W/1M sensitivity. The addition of an external amp for ACD Movies, and 2 Channel Stereo made a World of Difference -- PERIOD.

The fact is that the Denon AVR-3311CI has the Preouts to drive the external amp, and does an Excellent Job of handling all the HDMI processing for Audio/Video interconnects, Networking with DLNA, and all the DSP modes come with the mid-level AVR. Along with Audyssey MultEQ XT, and DynVOL and DynEQ it is a sound Pre/Pro basically. And for those with Small Rooms and good efficient speakers, they might be happy w/o the external amp. I basically look at the Denon AVR Mid price line as an excellent pre/pro with a lot of features, but with all channels driven (5.1) it will protect itself at around +12db on Vol knob, as I have done it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Driving two channels you might get 125W RMS per Channel into 8Ω Continuously, but not even close with all channels driven (ACD) at once. The Denon AVR-3311CI only weighs around 27#, so you are right that the Xformer, Sec. Caps are really scaled down to fit in that weight profile, and there is nothing like an external amp (70-80#'s) when driving 5 or 7 Channels watching/listening to a Movie in dts HD MA format.
You are almost spot on, 121WX2 into 8 ohms and 200WX2 into 4 ohms 0.1% THD according to HTM (for the SR7005). ACD drops to 74.6W, not bad for a 27 to 28 lbs unit.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-sr7005-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Those numbers are based on the apparent twin Marantz SR7005 that reportedly have the same guts, just look different on the outside. Not sure how reliable the source is but from what I read it is believable. You pay more for the Marantze much better (to me anyway) look.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
AcuDefTech -- are you using the features of the 3310 Networking (like streaming in Napster and/or NetFlix)?
Have you found that the EQ without the Audyssey MultEQ XT is any worse off or ??
No, I don't use the networking on any of my processors. I don't even use those Networking features on my Denon 5308CI or AVP-A1HDCI.

I have run Audyssey numerous times on my AVR-5308 & AVP-A1HD and found that Audyssey (both Audyssey & Audyssey Flat) made the sound quality WORSE than Pure Direct & Direct mode. Thus, I am NOT a fan of any kind of EQ or DSP (well, except for what's in the Linkwitz Orion's analog active crossover/Signal Processor :D). I am a fan of Direct and Pure Direct.

When I auditioned the Revel Salon 2, Linkwitz Orion, and KEF 201/2, it was in direct mode 2.0 -- no EQ or DSP whatsoever.

And so far the 3 best speakers I have ever heard are the Salon 2, 201/2, and Orion.
 
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