jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
I bet the crossovers are different. I still like my idea of bricks but realize there must be some fatal flaw with that reasoning. You do have a way to measure room response to see the effects of 2,3 or 4 bricks. If you take laziness out of the equation then I like Swerd's idea of those ER18's with a like center shipped off to DM for crossover design. Building a cabinet for Paradigm Monitor drivers seems like a waste of build effort but I get it from a cost factor perspective ... but then I'm back to bricks again. Cost factor and laziness are completely satisfied with a few ... BRICKS !!! :D
I bet the crossovers are not different! Same parts only tuned different.

I have a call placed to Paradigm Tech support. Lets see if I can get any info from them.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
If cost is a factor I will supply the ... BRICKS !!! :D
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I am just waiting on you is all. The 2600 is all boxed up with your name on it:)
... and I'm waiting on a job. You wouldn't believe the antics I've been up to trying to weasel my way onto this one project. I just ordered up some business cards to hand out to Homer Owner as well. :rolleyes:

I want to be one of those fly by night contractors that takes the money and runs ... :eek:
Working for money isn't that lucrative anymore ... :eek:
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think these are going to suit me fine both in their performance and sound quality. http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=USHERs. It will cost me roughly $750 bucks to build a pair. The question now becomes "can I find something as good already built for the same money or less?"
From that price (parts alone $594/pair), I'm guessing you're going to build your own cabinets. With PE's rectangular cabinets they cost $860/pair, and with curved cabinets, $910/pair.

Parts for the ER18 MTM with dome tweeter are $551/pair (as of last August). I'm assuming that the crossover changes required by a different cabinet will not change the cost much.

The Usher 9950 dome tweeter and the Parts Express RS-28F dome tweeter are so similar they are essentially the same tweeter. The RS-28 is said to be custom made for PE by Usher in the same Chinese factory. Both are very good 1" domes.

The main difference might be in the crossover and woofers. Let's assume the Usher crossovers were properly designed ;). I haven't heard the Ushers, but I think the SEAS ER18 woofer is hard to beat. The prices are pretty close.

I'm pretty sure that you won't find anything as good that is new and already built, for that price.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
I'm pretty sure that you won't find anything as good that is new and already built, for that price.
After looking at many speakers over the last day or so, I believe your are correct.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Curious - is the $750 for a pair of bookshelf or MTM? Are you kitting everything?

Thanks!
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Curious - is the $750 for a pair of bookshelf or MTM? Are you kitting everything?

Thanks!
That was for a pair of MTM's with a few extra bucks thrown in for my own cabinets.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The question now becomes "can I find something as good already built for the same money or less?"
If there was one speaker that comes up for me in my readings as a giant-killing-mega-value, it could be the Infinity Primus 360? I think(?) KEW has had these, had great things to say about them, and that's from someone who has or had Salk and high end Focal at his place at the same time. So, I'd like to as him . . . They would have to be found on the classifieds though. Newer model is more expensive, but then again, still within budget and perhaps it still fares well?

Curious - is the $750 for a pair of bookshelf or MTM? Are you kitting everything?

Thanks!
Hi KEW. What do you think of the Infinity Primus 360 for Jeff? :D
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Hm, I'm sorta leaning towards a vote towards DIY Seymour screen on false wall, with three identical DIY speakers all hidden, same plane, vertically oriented. :)

The wall + screen can be done for about $300, as a guess.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
If there was one speaker that comes up for me in my readings as a giant-killing-mega-value, it could be the Infinity Primus 360? I think(?) KEW has had these, had great things to say about them, and that's from someone who has or had Salk and high end Focal at his place at the same time. So, I'd like to as him . . . They would have to be found on the classifieds though. Newer model is more expensive, but then again, still within budget and perhaps it still fares well?



Hi KEW. What do you think of the Infinity Primus 360 for Jeff? :D
Thanks, but looking on infinity's site those appear to be exactly what I am trying to avoid. I need small D'Appolitio's that are tuned to start dropping at 70 or 80hz.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Those would be perfect! but they have an f3 of 48:( Looks like a great speaker though.
And that requirement too, oh crap, that's right. Well cross the ER18 off the list with a F3 at 35hz.

Methinks that you ought to get an EQ device, for BM and notch filters, so that you can choose (and change) any speakers you may want. If you ever swap out commercial amps for whatever reason, I think the Crown XTi line is really cool because you can dl BandManager for free, and it has a lot you can do with it, including notch filters galore with a wide ranging Q selectivity. I got my XTi2000 for $500. I just offer that idea, because I'm not sure what to offer otherwise. I bet the MiniDSP has been mentioned here already and I would perhaps investigate further, and the Behringer route intimidates me just slightly, just going by a few anecdotes.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
And that requirement too, oh crap, that's right. Well cross the ER18 off the list with a F3 at 35hz.

Methinks that you ought to get an EQ device, for BM and notch filters, so that you can choose (and change) any speakers you may want. If you ever swap out commercial amps for whatever reason, I think the Crown XTi line is really cool because you can dl BandManager for free, and it has a lot you can do with it, including notch filters galore with a wide ranging Q selectivity. I got my XTi2000 for $500. I just offer that idea, because I'm not sure what to offer otherwise. I bet the MiniDSP has been mentioned here already and I would perhaps investigate further, and the Behringer route intimidates me just slightly, just going by a few anecdotes.
If I decide to get an XPA-3 I just may put an active eq on the L,R channel. For now I am just using the Onkyo TX NR808 and and EP2500 on the subs. I took those damn A-500's back out of the loop for the last time. Those things really pis me off:mad:
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If there was one speaker that comes up for me in my readings as a giant-killing-mega-value, it could be the Infinity Primus 360? I think(?) KEW has had these, had great things to say about them, and that's from someone who has or had Salk and high end Focal at his place at the same time. So, I'd like to as him . . . They would have to be found on the classifieds though. Newer model is more expensive, but then again, still within budget and perhaps it still fares well?

Hi KEW. What do you think of the Infinity Primus 360 for Jeff? :D
I will often recommend the P362's to someone looking for speakers, and it is an easy recommendation to make. They are exceptional for the cost!

As was mentioned, I would be worry about the bass concerns.

However, your question did remind me of another possibility.

I also compared the P362's to Behringer 2031P's - in the same room, level matched, instant switch back and forth - so a comparison I feel very good about. I liked the 2031P's better. (I don't recommend them so often, because they just don't fit normal profile for HT fronts). An audio friend came over while I still had them setup and I gave him the RC to see what he thought and he reached the same conclusion.
The Behringer had tighter bass and the P362 had more coloration in general (though not bad by any means).

I don't know if the 2031P's which are ported with a 8-3/4" woofer would have similar bass problems, but I'd bet the 2030P's would fit the bill!
In case you had not seen it, there's more than you would ever want to know about the Behringers here (see post #145 for FR of 2031P. FR of 2030 is in the thread somewhere :rolleyes: but both are pretty darn good):
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/23642-thoughts-behringer-studio-monitors-2030-others-active-passive-15.html#post324642

At <$200 a pair I sometimes question my sanity for buying $2000+ speakers! Comparing these with my higher dollar speakers - For midrange detail, I felt like the Behringers equaled or beat the S2's and Salks. The active Focals had the advantage over them.
Of course, on the high end, the Be tweeters and the ribbon tweeters had more extension, but my friend didn't really notice enough difference up there to matter much. The Behringers do have a very good soft dome tweeter.
To give you some perspective, the upper highs matter to me more than most. In my office, I am annoyed by high pitched servo noise that two 30 something women, one 40 something guy, and one 50 something woman do not hear - I am 52 and sit across the room - so I know I have freakish HF hearing. I also can't charge my cell phone by the bed because of the HF sound from the AC adapter.
I suspect my friend has slightly worse than average HF hearing.
My friend would put the Behringers as fair competition for the Salks or the S-2's (disregarding bass), and I would be inclined to agree if I took the upper high frequency out of the equation.

I have no idea what type of return policy pro shops have but if it is easy, you might want to give them a try.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
jeffsg4mac seems to have made up his mind about the general type of speakers he wants - stand mounted MTMs - with an F3 bass response high enough to avoid exciting the 40 Hz peak he has in his room. I tried to convince him that the problem he had with his Paradigm Monitor 7s was bloated bass caused by poor cabinet tuning. Only the Monitor 7s produced the problem and his subwoofers did not - in the same room. Because of that, it is likely that other tower speakers designed without an exaggerated bass response would work well.

He didn't buy that. End of story. That ship has sailed. It's his money and his choice. Choosing stand mounted speakers in smaller cabinets with higher F3 will also solve the problem. I think either of the two MTM kits sold by Parts Express will be pretty good.

Now, on to the CTM-340s. A rough rule-of-thumb I learned in DIY speakers is that speaker & crossover parts for a good DIY design costing X dollars should be roughly equal in sound quality to commercial retail speakers (sold in B&M stores) that cost 5X dollars. For internet direct speakers, a fair estimate is 3X dollars.

The parts for the Usher MTM kit cost about $600/pair. 5X = $3000 and 3X = $1500. These are rough estimates. The CTM-340s (never heard them, but they are widely said to be quite decent speakers) cost $568/pair. Do the math, divide by 3 = about $200. They are not in the same price range as the Usher 721 or the ER18 MTM, and I don't expect they are in the same sound quality league.

What does Ascend do to keep the price lower?
  • 5/8" thick cabinet walls instead of 3/4"
  • Polygel woofer cones (marketing speak for polypropylene cones?) instead of Kevlar cones for the Ushers, and reed/paper for the ER18. Polypropylene cones will likely be less detailed sounding.
  • Polymer (injection molded plastic) woofer frames, instead of more rigid aluminum alloy
I'm not saying they sound inferior for the above reasons, only that are less expensive for those reasons. At the same time, I am saying that I would gladly pay extra to avoid them.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I'd bet the 2030P's would fit the bill!
I thought they were SPL limited.
Jeff has a pretty big room that's open to a different area.
Having lived with the 2030P's for about a month I would not recommend them for Jeff's space.
 

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