I Need new fronts.

[Swerd]

Neat! I would have never thought that 40Hz could be a significant problem from speakers crossed at 80z (even with exaggerated bass)!

If the port was tuned for 40Hz, is it possible that the speaker/port would in any way act as a feedback loop of sorts from subwoofer and/or room mode energy?

I don't think the explanation needs to be that complicated. Those Monitor 7 speakers, by themselves, have mistuned bass reflex cabinets. This is more common than you think, probably done deliberatly, creating a bass response more to suit the marketing guys than to suit the acoustics guys.

Even if you try to "fix" it by setting the speakers to SMALL with the crossover point at 80 Hz, the sound remains "muddied" over a wider range into the lower midrange. Many people are so used to hearing this in their home or car speakers that they think it is normal. I've even heard people say that speakers with properly designed cabinets, with Q = 0.7 or lower, sound like they lack "bass slam". I usually don't argue with them.

An easy test is to listen to a male announcer's voice, such as a FM radio DJ or news announcer. Does the male voice sound right or too boomy?

The best fix is to find speakers without exaggerated bass. I know for certain that the Salk STs and HT2-TL and the ER18 DIY fill that bill. There are others, such as Totem, B&W 800 series, and perhaps PSB, but I've not heard PSBs. I suppose smaller standmount speakers might also work, but the key is proper design of cabinet bass response, not keeping overall cabinet size smaller.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Neat! I would have never thought that 40Hz could be a significant problem from speakers crossed at 80z (even with exaggerated bass)!
If the port was tuned for 40Hz, is it possible that the speaker/port would in any way act as a feedback loop of sorts from subwoofer and/or room mode energy?

I don't know but when I set the crossover to 80 and then look at pink noise with the RTA they don't start dropping off until 40hz. It also did this with my Yamaha receiver.

 

[annunaki]

This entire issue, at least to me sounds like like a crossover issue. You need a 24db/oct high pass filter and possibly a notch filter as well.

One could also engage a secondary cascade filter at 70hz 3rd order (18db/oct) or higher which will help push your resonance problem further down making it less audible.

 

[Matt34]

This entire issue, at least to me sounds like like a crossover issue. You need a 24db/oct high pass filter and possibly a notch filter as well.

One could also engage a secondary cascade filter at 70hz 3rd order (18db/oct) or higher which will help push your resonance problem further down making it less audible.

Sssh you, we are trying to spend Jeff's money on things he may or may not need.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Sssh you, we are trying to spend Jeff's money on things he may or may not need.

Yeah and he is trying to spoil my getting some new speakers too I dont want to fix these, I want some new speakers damn-it!

 

[jeffsg4mac]

This entire issue, at least to me sounds like like a crossover issue. You need a 24db/oct high pass filter and possibly a notch filter as well.

One could also engage a secondary cascade filter at 70hz 3rd order (18db/oct) or higher which will help push your resonance problem further down making it less audible.

It would be easier to just build some new speakers that start dropping faster don't you think?

 

[annunaki]

It would be easier to just build some new speakers that start dropping faster don't you think?

I guess that depends on what the real influence of this decision is.

You could do that but "kit" designs are probably not where you are going to find this solution. The crossover is the easiest or correct way to fix this issue.

However I do find it appalling that the actual bass response of the speakers is that bloated? Were we able to confirm this?

If you cannot or do not want to change placement, I will still recommend that you add in a notch filter or one of the other suggestions I posed to actually correct this issue even if you upgrade your speakers.

It would be interesting to note the actual amount of room gain at this frequency range. Especially considering that your current crossover will have response down by -12db at 40hz. If you have a peak of +12 or more right now with the x-over engaged (assuming your current speaker's bass is not bloated), even with a different speaker you could still have issues.

 

[GranteedEV]

Why not build an econowave?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I guess that depends on what the real influence of this decision is.

You could do that but "kit" designs are probably not where you are going to find this solution. The crossover is the easiest or correct way to fix this issue.

However I do find it appalling that the actual bass response of the speakers is that bloated? Were we able to confirm this?

If you cannot or do not want to change placement, I will still recommend that you add in a notch filter or one of the other suggestions I posed to actually correct this issue even if you upgrade your speakers.

It would be interesting to note the actual amount of room gain at this frequency range. Especially considering that your current crossover will have response down by -12db at 40hz. If you have a peak of +12 or more right now with the x-over engaged (assuming your current speaker's bass is not bloated), even with a different speaker you could still have issues.

Well I do know that when I put on a speaker that has a much higher F3 ( the atoms) the problem went away? I think that it is just a combination of the room gain and the fact that the speakers have an F3 of about 34.

I do agree that a steeper crossover would solve the issue. However unless I decide to go with the XPA-3 that is not easily done with a receiver.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Why not build an econowave? As far as the measurements go, they seem to me like excellent HT speakers.

What are they?

 

[GranteedEV]

sorry, I edited my post right before you pressed the quote button

 

[Matt34]

What are they?

Forgot about those! They are high-output HT speakers using compression drivers/waveguides designed by the late "Zilch" from AudioKarma.org.

Edit:

Here is the huge thread with links to the different builds.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939&highlight=econowave

Post with containing everything for the standard design. $190 in parts (included flatpack enclosure).
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3383067#post3383067

 

[KEW]

I don't know how good these measurements are, but this shows flat response from 50Hz all of the way up to 500Hz (which I'd consider low mid-range)! I guess with boundary effect and room mode, the 40Hz could get out of hand, but being able to overcome the -12db crossover plus the ability of Audissey to counteract it is kind of scary!

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/paradigm-monitor-7.html

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I don't know how good these measurements are, but this shows flat response from 50Hz all of the way up to 500Hz (which I'd consider low mid-range)! I guess with boundary effect and room mode, the 40Hz could get out of hand, but being able to overcome the -12db crossover plus the ability of Audissey to counteract it is kind of scary!

http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/paradigm-monitor-7.html

Those are a version behind mine. I have v.3 which have a different woofer on the bottom.

 

[jinjuku]

You need to be my guinea pig and try the Dayton MTM that Swerd linked earlier. I've been curious about them for awhile now.

If you are going to do a Dayton based MTM look at the Natalie P. According to a group of people that A/B'd against the Paradigm Studio 100's (forget the version) it kicked the snot out of it.

 

[jinjuku]

Why not build an econowave?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536

I thought you couldn't lay hands on the QSC waveguide any more. There was an AVS thread about reverse engineering them.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I would not mind also just picking out my own parts, and tuning my own box, but I don't have any crossover software

 

[Matt34]

I thought you couldn't lay hands on the QSC waveguide any more. There was an AVS thread about reverse engineering them.

I believe so, but there are alternatives from Plye and JBL.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Hey guys, here is what I need to do temporarily. As some have suggested I need to decrease my box volume. Good idea but I don't want to just be shooting in the dark and making a guess. What I need to do is turn my monitor 7's v.3 into a pair of monitor 5's v.3 The only difference in the two to the best of my knowledge is the cabinet size and maybe port length.

I need to find out the cabinet dimensions and port length of the monitor 5's v.3 and reduce mine to that, build new boxes or get a hold of some monitor 5 boxes. Here is what the 5's v.3 look like.

 

[Alex2507]

I bet the crossovers are different. I still like my idea of bricks but realize there must be some fatal flaw with that reasoning. You do have a way to measure room response to see the effects of 2,3 or 4 bricks. If you take laziness out of the equation then I like Swerd's idea of those ER18's with a like center shipped off to DM for crossover design. Building a cabinet for Paradigm Monitor drivers seems like a waste of build effort but I get it from a cost factor perspective ... but then I'm back to bricks again. Cost factor and laziness are completely satisfied with a few ... BRICKS !!!