Amp Suggestions for Denon AVR-3311CI

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDefTechGuy -- BTW, looks like you have a VTI rack. I was thinking of that one also, but want it to be able to handle a couple shelves that are around 10" each on bottom if I end up expanding to another big amp at around 7.75" high. Is it totally modular so you can scale up with it as you add? Do you like the VTI rack? Was considering this one, VTI - BL404 - BL Series 4-Shelf Audio Rack. Where is the best place to purchase it online?

StandsandMounts.com

VTI BLG Series Audio Rack BLG404-13 $379.99 (free S/H).

The "-13" stands for the 13" bottom shelf.

The dimensions on the bottom shelf is 13.125", 2nd shelf 9.125", and 3rd shelf is 7.125".

It is 100% modular.

I love the this rack. I have 2 of them. One on each side to match.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Put the hot stuff at the top, so it doesn't cause the rest of the equipment to get hot.

I don't like the idea of putting a 100+ lb amp on top!

I don't know about the XPA-5, but my ATI AT3005 doesn't even make the glass shelf above it WARM. These shelves are 1/2" thick.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was going to put the EMO XPA-5 on the bottom due to weight (66#'s) net - so that the rack is not top heavy, then above that the Denon AVR. Also, most state the amp does not get that hot either, just warm.

Yeah, my ATI AT3005 is about 110lbs, so it's on the bottom. My AVP-A1HD is about 60lbs, and it's on the 2nd shelf. My Denon BD player is about 23lbs on the 3rd shelf. My HTPC#1 is about 40lbs on the top shelf.

 

[DenPureSound]

StandsandMounts.com

VTI BLG Series Audio Rack BLG404-13 $379.99 (free S/H).

The "-13" stands for the 13" bottom shelf.

The dimensions on the bottom shelf is 13.125", 2nd shelf 9.125", and 3rd shelf is 7.125".

It is 100% modular.

I love the this rack. I have 2 of them. One on each side to match.

Will look into this Rack after taxes . Thanks for the information, as it looks like a Super Rack in all aspects.
Dennis

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Will look into this Rack after taxes . Thanks for the information, as it looks like a Super Rack in all aspects.
Dennis

This is my 3rd rack, and 3rd time is a charm, right?

I think modular is the way to go.

An important factor is the WEIGHT capacity of the shelves, and this VTI is heavy duty with 1/2" thick tampered glass.

The other factor is the shelf height, and 13" is a must for big heavy amps.

 

[DenPureSound]

Will look into this Rack after taxes . Thanks for the information, as it looks like a Super Rack in all aspects.
Dennis

Wifey states that she does not like the Glass, pain in the you know what to clean, but in either case all black shows dust. Will go with the fiber board which is Powder Coated vs. the Glass, and w/o the Cbl. Mgmt. stuff in rear, as I will use the Monoprice Velcro tie wrap stuff, should clean up rr. cbls. Will go with the 13" shelf on bottom to give extra ventilation to the XPA-5 on bottom shelf, with the Black Poles, Black shelves, and Gold Caps... nice looking and modular is the key also. Thanks.

 

[zumbo]

http://www.swiffer.com/en_US/duster.do

 

[ron3033]

ZUMBO -- THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP THIS PAST WEEK -- Love Audioholics forum. New EMO XPA-5 coming in soon (2-15-2011) or so, and once hooked up will let Members know what I think with the Denon AVR-3311CI (5.1) [5.2]

Should kick LOVERBOY right in those RED Pants

hello DenPureSound......... I have a Denon 2809 CI.... but I need to setit up to work properly or reset it up. Denon seems to have notoriously difficult set up......or so I am told.......... and I may have my done wrong and maybe Audyssey turned it down a bunch????????? I don't know! I am learning!

Also is a SonyBDP 350 a good unit to play CD's to the Denon for music? Or should I buy a 5 disk player?? I have a Sony 69ES from 1992 on my front room sound system, it works like a charm still. I read these were good units, butIi do not think they are around. It is nice to have 5 disks and you can just switch music with the remote and not have to change out a single disk..

Any suggestions appreciated
ron3033

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Will go with the fiber board which is Powder Coated vs. the Glass, and w/o the Cbl. Mgmt. stuff in rear.

I did not install the cable management in the rear either - left them in the closet.

One other thing I did was remove the VTI sticker label on the top front shelf. It just peels off easily. I think it gives it a smoother look.

 

[TLS Guy]

LPF for LFE should be 120. Members, this is a long story, but correct.

Surround should be SMALL as well.

X-over on the sub boxes should be to MAX, or LFE input. Whatever the Sub manufacturer states bypasses the SUBS x-over.

I don't know about the following. Nothing I am familiar with.
Restorer = Off
DynEQ = ON
DynVOL = OFF

I guess we need the long story as to why you think the LFE low pass should be set to 120 Hz. That is well into sub localization range, and I would only take that approach with miserable satellites which I would not use any way.

Also at 120 Hz the ear is much more sensitive to crossover error. In that range the crossover pretty much needs to be custom. It seems to me that for bookshelf speakers 80 Hz is probably a good starting point and that is what THX recommend on that situation. For mare capable speakers 60 Hz is probably a better starting point. For really good capable speakers I think that they should be set to full range and the sub brought in a F3 X 2.

This latter is what B & W recommend for their larger speakers in the 800 series and I think that makes perfect sense. I have 800 Ds up that way and get the best sound quality and in room response.

As far as Audyssey is concerned, my guess is it will get it right. I only have experience with my system. I never thought it would figure out my system at all, but it did and only made one error. It figured out my design and set the crossover and levels correctly. It only made one error it over delayed the LFE signal to average the time of speaker and pipe output. This obviously resulted on a problem as two of the four driver receiving the LFE signal have a all the bass from the right and left channels, plus the mid range step loss compensation signal. That was the only thing in the set up I had to over ride. I think that is truly remarkable and by me at least totally unexpected.

So my hunch is, that if calibration is properly carried out, it will set up most systems optimally as far as crossover, levels and delay are concerned.

 

[PENG]

I guess we need the long story as to why you think the LFE low pass should be set to 120 Hz.

Let him give you the long story but I can offer my short one. LFE is the .1 channel so it has nothing to do with the re-directed bass from the other 7 speakers that are set to small. If the contents (e.g. SACD 5.0) have nothing above 80 Hz, then setting it to 80 or 120 Hz makes no difference but if there is content above 80 Hz (apparently in some cases there are things >80 Hz) then setting it to 120 Hz will allow you to hear it.

That is well into sub localization range

That is true, I guess we have to ask the authors why they allow contents of frequencies that high in the .1 (LFE) channel. May be it is assumed that the subwoofer is placed in the recommended locations. In the case of a system with no subwoofers then the LFE channel will simply be played through the front L/R speakers set to large so localization won't be an issue.

By the way, if you ask Audyssey, they would likely suggest setting LFE to 120 Hz.

Edit: Long story is the following links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effects
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

 

[jostenmeat]

I think what a lot of people do is put the LPF of LFE at 120hz, and the xover at 80hz. Since xovers are not brick walls, you still are able to get LFE info up to the 120hz ceiling, even if the 80hz xover remains.

 

[TLS Guy]

Let him give you the long story but I can offer my short one. LFE is the .1 channel so it has nothing to do with the re-directed bass from the other 7 speakers that are set to small. If the contents (e.g. SACD 5.0) have nothing above 80 Hz, then setting it to 80 or 120 Hz makes no difference but if there is content above 80 Hz (apparently in some cases there are things >80 Hz) then setting it to 120 Hz will allow you to hear it.



That is true, I guess we have to ask the authors why they allow contents of frequencies that high in the .1 (LFE) channel.

By the way, if you ask Audyssey, they would likely suggest setting LFE to 120 Hz.

In that case you must be able to set the LFE effects on that receiver, separately from the redirected bass from the other speakers.

At least on mine you can't, and the design for the low pass of the LFE/and bass from stereo sources is 60 Hz.

In that configuration everything seems to work fine.

I have just done some checking on pro sites, especially about mastering.

DTS only supports up to 80 Hz on the LFE channel, Dolby up to 120 Hz.

The general consensus seems to be to cut off the LFE channel between 60 and 70 Hz.

For multichannel music the advice is to leave the sub channel blank, otherwise there are serious phasing issues between the LFE and other speakers. That is the way all mine are.

However customers get upset when there is no sub output, so if the studio client insists on something on the LFE channel, the the advice is to put some very low bass at low volume on the LFE channel.

It seems the best approach for music is still integrated full range speakers.

That was the consensus at a recent AES meeting in the Twin Cities when we got around to discussing this issue.

However delivering the LFE signal into full range speakers takes some thought and is a challenge.

 

[zumbo]

So let me clarify.

LFE set to 120 is a recommendation for units that have a separate LFE setting for the sub, and separate settings for other speakers.

Like with my Z7

Mains are set to 60.
Center is 80.
Rears are 60.
LFE is 120.

As Peng mentioned, this ensures nothing is lost when an engineer sends above 80 to the LFE channel. It's a great tip, and one I just learned from PENG.

I dig it.

 

[PENG]

In that case you must be able to set the LFE effects on that receiver, separately from the redirected bass from the other speakers.

You are correct, my Denon 4308 does exactly that. Denon (the older models) confused people by putting that so called LFE setting in the subwoofer Advanced crossover menu and referred to it as "LFE" so people may be led to believe it was a crossover from the other channels.

By the way I can do the same with my Marantz AV7005 but Marantz does it more correctly by putting it under "Bass Setting" as opposed to under "Crossover Frequency" as well as refers to it as "LPE" for the "LFE"

 

[PENG]

So let me clarify.

LFE set to 120 is a recommendation for units that have a separate LFE setting for the sub, and separate settings for other speakers.

Like with my Z7

Mains are set to 60.
Center is 80.
Rears are 60.
LFE is 120.

As Peng mentioned, this ensures nothing is lost when an engineer sends above 80 to the LFE channel. It's a great tip, and one I just learned from PENG.

I dig it.

Sorry I took care of it for you, but you were late!!

 

[PENG]

I think what a lot of people do is put the LPF of LFE at 120hz, and the xover at 80hz. Since xovers are not brick walls, you still are able to get LFE info up to the 120hz ceiling, even if the 80hz xover remains.

You are the one who came up with a truly short story.

The newer Denon, such as the 4310, did it like the Marantz way, calling it LPF for LFE and have it under the Bass setting section, not the crossover frequency section any more.

I guess synergy/standardization/harmonization is actually taking place at D&M holding. Whether that is good or bad time will tell.

 

[PENG]

Mains are set to 60.
Center is 80.
Rears are 60.
LFE is 120.

Exactly the same as mine everything set to 60 except the center. Audyssey told me they do take care of the peaks and dips so I am not concerned about setting the surround and surround backs so low. In fact I had tried 40 and that sounded okay too but 60 seemed better. I hope your YPAO are just as good otherwise.......I mean, jostenmeat may have things to say.....

 

[TLS Guy]

This has turned into an interesting thread.

It has caused me to look into the mastering of 5.1 and 7.1.

Really full range speakers don't need the LFE channel except for one thing, the bass effects. If there is no sub then the LFE is sent to the mains, but there is no flag to increase the level during impressive effects.

Now for movies the LFE is pretty much all effect. Music is another matter.

European SACDs leave the sub channel out, there is no output from it. I now see why.

I have just done an experiment.

On my rig I can can switch from the pre pro crossover to my analog crossovers at the turn of a switch and the same drivers are used.

I was intrigued when I came across a mastering engineers opinion, that generating an LFE channel from a music recording is a bad idea and will downgrade quality.

So I put it to the test.

I just played a BD of the Tannhauser overture. This has lots of bass and everything else. So first I played just the LFE channel. It just has very deep sounds, pretty much I think the low end of the double basses and tympani. None of it was recognizable, only deep noise.

Then I played it and switched the LFE channel in and out, which then switched to my crossovers at the same time when the LFE was out.

There was a small but significant improvement when the LFE was out. The bass was fuller and tighter at the same time and more natural.

So having an LFE channel for music is a bad idea. That engineer was right.

Warpdrv won't like this, but he also said that a sub is by far the least important part of an audio system. I must say I agree with that.

That recoding is marvelous. Wagner loved trombones and the large bank of them and everything else is just thrilling on this rig. When the guy blows his brains out on the Wagner tuba it just goes right over the top.

So from now on I will play opera and any music BDs without using the LFE channel and play them just like I do SACD.

I should have thought of that as when you think about it you can not record an LFE channel, only derive it.

Thanks to all who made this a thread out of the mold.

 

[DenPureSound]

With a speaker that is 98dB @ 2.83V / 1m I am surprised the Denon isn't cutting it.

The Denon was OK but I felt it was a little weak with some Big Punch for Power when driving 5.1, but after getting the EMOTIVA XPA-5 it made a Huge Difference in both Stereo modes, and movies sound super clean in dts HD Master Audio - my favorite format.

I know there is a whole camp that says the Denon AVR-3311CI should have enough power output, but after adding the EMO amp it did make a huge difference, and will not go back to a straight AVR again, except for a very small room.