Best Receiver for 3 pairs of B&W 602 S3? :)

[twochordcool]

Hello everybody!

Please help me fill in everything else around 3 pairs of B&W 602 S3's! (Long story!)

6 years ago I had a job in which I was "on the road", had no rent, and was making pretty good money!

So I was wondering what I was going to do with it!

I decided to start in on putting together a home theater!

Well, after purchasing 3 pairs of B&W 602 S3's the job came to an unexpected screeching halt!

These 3 pairs of speakers have yet to be out of the still factory sealed boxes!

Anyhow, here I am 6 years later and I think I am going to come into enough money soon to buy and fill in the missing pieces!

My FIRST question is which receiver you would think would be a nice match to these speakers?

Can anybody recommend a receiver that would bring out the best of these speakers? I'd just like to research a few good ones and then make a decision - perhaps finding a place I can actually listen to it with my (or similar B&W) speakers.

Would I be better off going with a separate processor / amplifier, or is that unaffordable? What is the best receiver that is good enough to justify going with an all in one?

I would like to spend enough to do these speakers real justice. I don't know how much that is yet.

In another thread on another board they are recommending the Rotel RSX-1550, which is quite expensive, or even worse (or better obviously!) a separate Rotel processor and amplifier.

I'd like to stay within $1000 to do these speakers justice, or a little more if I must to make them sound significantly better. But I have to strike a balance between affordability and not doing an injustice to these speakers.

By the way, I DO also own a Rotel stereo integrated amp, which I purchased around the same time as these speakers, which has ALSO never been out of the box! So I have a question - do they make some kind of "switches" which I can just flick to switch between listening to music from the integrated amp as the source, AND switching to the receiver for movies?

Obviously I would not want to switch the speaker wires over every time I wanted to listen to one or the other.

Would this downgrade the sound quality?

Or would I be better off simply buying a great receiver that performed magnificently in stereo with music as well?

What center channel speaker should I purchase?

I understand B&W has discontinued the 602's and whatever center channel that went with it -

Have they made replaced it with something nearly identical?

What do you think of the idea of going with a 5.1 setup and simply using one of my 602's as a center channel? Could it handle the center channel signals for movies? Could it actually handle it better than a center channel speaker?

Thanks a lot in advance for any information!

 

[jostenmeat]

Absolutely use the 602 as center channel. Absolutely must be upright. Same plane, identical speakers, is the very best setup. It is the end goal.

Will a flat panel fit above it on the wall? Or, when the funds are there, you can go with projector and AT screen, as I do.

For receiver/processor, select only for the features you need. If the feature list is modest, then even a "modest" receiver can act as prepro, with plenty of money left over for amplification.

If using a receiver only, you would be best served by describing the actual db levels you wish to listen to, with the distance between your front three and yourself.

In my honest opinion, any of the major brands, whether Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and so forth, all make units that are at least commensurate to your speakers, if not in fact superior (or you know what I mean).

 

[twochordcool]

Thank you.

I plan on building a TV stand / entertainment center in which the speakers will be under the TV at optimum listening level.

The 602's speaker stands sold by B&W were 20 inches, so I will probably make it so the speakers are at 20 inches.

I asked the same question about a separate center channel speaker to a guy at Stereo Exchange in NYC and he said it would be best to buy an actual center channel speaker - but he may just be trying to sell me something!

I've heard 50/50 - go with an identical speaker for center channel if you can / go with a specific center channel speaker.

As far as receiver goes, are you saying to by a good quality, inexpensive basic receiver with preouts and then put my money in a power amplifier?

I just don't know if I will have the money to go this route.

How much money will I have to spend on a receiver alone to make these speakers shine?

Will $1000 get the job done nicely?

Will I be getting more than double the performance if I spend $2000?

 

[twochordcool]

Oh, my room size is approximately 15' X 12'.

 

[timoteo]

Glad to hear your now able to get the ball in motion.

I dont have experience with the 602s but i have owned a number of different B&Ws including the current 600 series. I have also heard almost every line B&W makes now. I have owned HarmanKardon, Denon & now Yamaha recievers. I only list all this so you know where my recommendation comes from & remember it is ONLY my thoughts.

Ill keep it short.

To me Denon gives B&W a little bit of a darker or reserved sound. HarmanKardon was pretty nice but left me wanting more. Ive sat down & listened to a Pioneer sc-37 the other day & maybe it was the classD amps but seemed to bloat the center channel to me. I went in one day all excited to hear the new Denon 4311 & left the store with the new Yamaha RX-A2000. I have heard from others that Yamaha & B&W together make a great team. Didnt believe it until I heard it for myself.

Now on paper, all new AVRs in the same class should be pretty much equal in sound. At least when compared in Pure Direct mode. But unless you are always listening in PD you have to consider what the processing of different brands does to the sound. For home theater i really love what YPAO does with my B&Ws. Seperation & detail are like ive never heard in my system. I dont regret one second going with Yamaha. However i do think that if we are to change speakers in this conversation, then eveything i just typed goes right out the door. Different speakers call for different components. Denon, Marantz, Pio, Rotel, yadayada....ALL GREAT!!

Im no expert on this stuff & i know many would gladly disagree with me. You need to go out & Listen Listen Listen. Get a good AVR that has the bells & whistles you'll use. Then save up & get a good power amp to boost things up a bit. Emotiva comes to mind. Place them correctly, tinker around a bit with what sounds good to you & enjoy!!

I was joking around about keeping it short by the way! Its late & im rambling

Didnt see where your at but if around L.A come by & take a listen for yourself. Or take your 602s to a brick&mortar, they'll let you hook em up & listen on different AVRs.

 

[timoteo]

Oh & $1000 can get you something that will make them shine just make sure it has pre-outs so you can ad the amp later if you want. $2000 doesnt mean twice the sound quality just more features/flexability, little more juice, etc. save the extra $1000 & put towards a good sub!

 

[AVRat]

Here’s an article regarding the center channel question: http://www.audioholics.com/education...hannel-speaker

In a room that size, or considerably larger < 2500 cu ft, even something like the Yammie A800 would work very well. http://store.audioholics.com/product/3263/69/yamaha-rx-a800-surround-receiver

 

[twochordcool]

Thanks for your help.

Link to center channel information is broken. I was going to start a separate discussion about that anyway.

 

[GranteedEV]

http://assets.bowers-wilkins.com/med/Libraries/3/602S3Archive_l2_w0_h0.pdf

Looking at this we find that although it's stated as a nominal 8 ohm load, it has dips as low as 3 ohms. This is not receiver territory and thus might introduce coloration, distortion, or strain. Your best bet is to buy a dirt cheap receiver with lots of pre-amp out headroom such as the Marantz SR5003 B-Stock and then pair the 602 S3s with a dedicated separates multi-channel amp such as the Emotiva UPA-7 or ATI 1806 as they will have the current and stability necessary to give you a consistent response. Marantz also has the AV7005 processor out and it has some featuers that might make it worth the increase in price. Another option for amps would be two sets of three channel amps like the Emotiva XPA-3 or ATI 2003 or something. Either way the key is to get amplifiers built for the job and if Bowers and Wilkins states there are dips as low as 3 ohms then we have to take their word for it and prepare accordingly.

 

[twochordcool]

Man, I love these speakers but I really had no idea that I would be buying speakers that were so demanding price-wise.

I'm really looking for simplicity and really good sound in a mid-level price range. (I'm afraid to ask what mid-level is considered now!) Did I really hose myself out of accomplishing those 3 goals with buying these speakers?

 

[Pyrrho]

http://assets.bowers-wilkins.com/med/Libraries/3/602S3Archive_l2_w0_h0.pdf

Looking at this we find that although it's stated as a nominal 8 ohm load, it has dips as low as 3 ohms. This is not receiver territory and thus might introduce coloration, distortion, or strain. Your best bet is to buy a dirt cheap receiver with lots of pre-amp out headroom such as the Marantz SR5003 B-Stock and then pair the 602 S3s with a dedicated separates multi-channel amp such as the Emotiva UPA-7 or ATI 1806 as they will have the current and stability necessary to give you a consistent response. Marantz also has the AV7005 processor out and it has some featuers that might make it worth the increase in price. Another option for amps would be two sets of three channel amps like the Emotiva XPA-3 or ATI 2003 or something. Either way the key is to get amplifiers built for the job and if Bowers and Wilkins states there are dips as low as 3 ohms then we have to take their word for it and prepare accordingly.

Unless that dip is just at, say 40kHz and not a big deal, I have just lost some respect for B&W. The nominal impedance is supposed to actually mean something. It is supposed to mean what the speaker can be regarded as being overall. But with a dip down to 3 ohms, unless it is at a very high frequency and therefore not a place where much power will be required, in my opinion, it means B&W essentially lies about their products.

Do you happen to know if anyone has measured the impedance of the speakers, and have put up a graph of it online somewhere? I would like to see it.

 

[Seth=L]

Let me say, you have some excellent speakers.

Since they are NIB, they are pretty much worth what they were new because they are the last of B&W's 600 series to be made in the UK. The 602 s3 is a very well regarded and sought after bookshelf monitor because they are a LARGE bookshelf monitor that can be comfortably used without a subwoofer in music only arrangements.

 

[GranteedEV]

Man, I love these speakers but I really had no idea that I would be buying speakers that were so demanding price-wise.

I'm really looking for simplicity and really good sound in a mid-level price range. (I'm afraid to ask what mid-level is considered now!) Did I really hose myself out of accomplishing those 3 goals with buying these speakers?

well, the UPA-7 I mentioned earlier is only $600 right now (on closeout) so it won't necessarily be that expensive. Like Pyrrho suggested, we don't even know where the 3 ohm dip is which makes it a total crapshoot to know how demanding the 602s actually are. Without a graph telling us the full story we can only "be prepared". Maybe a robust receiver might even be able to drive it perfectly. And maybe the loss in fidelity would be so minor compared to the impact of room acoustics and setup. We just don't know.

Which is why you need to buy gear to measure those things for ...yoursel..us.

 

[HexOmega]

All,

With a Google image search for "B&W 602 S3 Impedance" I stumbled across a review of these speakers by UltimateAVMag.com. While they didn't publish an impedance:frequency graph, the review DOES state the following:

"B&W DM 602 Series 3 Surround Speaker System Measurements
Measurements

The B&W DM 602 S3's bass alignment is tuned to approximately 38Hz (the minimum impedance magnitude in the "saddle" between the two main impedance peaks typical of a ported enclosure), with a minimum impedance of 2.91ohms at 12.5kHz. This high-frequency minimum will not unduly stress an amplifier, particularly since the phase angle of the impedance at this frequency is a benign –10°. The next lowest value is 4.73ohms at 172Hz. The 602 should be an easy load to drive for any competent amplifier. The speaker's sensitivity measured approximately 87dB/W/m across most of the midrange and treble—somewhat lower than specified, but an average value for a contemporary speaker."

Here is a link to this specific page of the review:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content/bw-dm-602-series-3-surround-speaker-system-measurements

 

[twochordcool]

Thank you SO much everyone for all of your wonderful help.

If you have any more ideas or suggestions it would be tremendously appreciated.

Unless I find it's not up to the task, I will probably spend somewhere in the vicinity of $1000 to $1500 on a receiver which I may or may not add to later.

Unfortunately it seems like the least expensive Rotel receiver (a brand many match up with B&W) is a little more expensive.

There are quite a few 5 star reviewed receivers over at What Hifi? Sound and Vision, which I will look into and probably choose one of them. Only a few are available in the US market so I will probably only have to "do homework" on a few before I make my choice.

 

[HexOmega]

Twochord,

Are you planning on purchasing a sub with the same budget?

If not, I am tempted to recommend the combination of the Emotiva UPA-7 amplifier (on closeout for $599) and perhaps their processor UMC-1 (regular $699) or another of your own choosing. For the money I think the UPA-7 would suit your needs well; better maybe than the amplifier section in a high-dollar receiver. With a little negotiation, perhaps they can do a combo deal on the two as well.

 

[Seth=L]

I drove a pair of these to reasonable levels of output with a 25 watt per channel amplifier. They are pretty efficient speakers and they didn't seem to tax that amplifier either.

 

[GranteedEV]

Unfortunately it seems like the least expensive Rotel receiver (a brand many match up with B&W) is a little more expensive.

Don't concern yourself with "matching up to B&W". Rotels are often a good choice because their amplifier sections are relatively high current and thus drive more demanding B&W speakers relatively well. Since it's been established that your speakers are essentially an easy load to drive, a good receiver is all you need, although adding a 2 or 3 channel amp like a UPA-2, XPA-3, or Behringer A500 to drive the front stage ought to give you a bit more power on tap for multichannel.

A Denon AVR-4311CI would be my first choice for a receiver at the moment. Anything it might lack in amplification (if at all) would be made up by a quality outboard amp. Of course, it's not often that a receiver claiming 140wpc would really be all that lacking in amplification! What it will give you is Audessey XT32 and Sub-EQ.

 

[twochordcool]

A Denon AVR-4311CI would be my first choice for a receiver at the moment. Anything it might lack in amplification (if at all) would be made up by a quality outboard amp. Of course, it's not often that a receiver claiming 140wpc would really be all that lacking in amplification!

Yeah this seems like a really good one! But at 2 Grand for a receiver I'd probably be leaning towards the Rotel RSX-1550 at the same price!

 

[twochordcool]

Twochord,

Are you planning on purchasing a sub with the same budget?

I was thinking about waiting for a little while for the sub and putting my money into essential things - receiver / blu ray player / 42 inch 1080P TV / necessary interconnects.

I'm anticipating having perhaps $3000, give or take.

These speakers aren't bad at lower frequencies and will probably be enough for most movies.

Thanks everyone, for all your help. Keep it coming!