Dialog intelligibility problem

[MaxVal]

Hello!

I'm seeking advice on improving the intelligibility of dialog on my home theater system.

The equipment list...

Pioneer VSX-1120-K
Fronts spks AR 10pi
Center - Polk CS1 series II
Sub - SVS PC12-NSD
Sony 560? BRD
Comcast cable

No sides, back, or hi fronts yet.
Using HDMI for audio

I've done the Mac set up apparently satisfactory to the receiver, DVD sound track effects and music sound good, but I'm not happy with the Dialog. I can hear it coming mostly from the center, but it's not crisp and easily understood. I had been using a speaker from an unused Logitec 5500 as a temporary center, observed the same problem, resulting in the purchase of the Polk.
I've been through trying the various codecs and some sound better than others, (neo 6 music sounding best), but the center is muted in this mode!
I must say that the menus on the receiver are intimidating, and the manual difficult.

Overall I'm simply unhappy with the system sound at this point!

I'd appreciate any ideas/pointers on improving the sound.

THANKS!
MAX

 

[jliedeka]

Have you tried running the automatic speaker calibration? Your receiver has built in EQ which should help. If you already have, you might try manually tweaking the level for the center. Also, if you have any hearing issues, you might try manually adjusting the EQ on the center as well - especially in the 1-3kHz range but a bit above and below may help too.

Jim

 

[MaxVal]

Thanks Jim!

I appreciate your thoughts.
I have run the auto setup successfully.
I've also tried changing speaker setup parameters (large/small fronts and center) with no real improvement in intelligibility.
It seems that the extended dynamic range may be adding to the problem by causing me to listen at a lower volume than I might otherwise if not for the overdone effects.
Another point as to my hearing, I'm sure I'm experiencing high frequency loss to some extent.

Still seeking,
MAX

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'd try to get RadioShack Analog Level Meter and use REW run frequency sweeps on your l/r and center interdependently.
Since they are drastically different most likely you have frequency gaps. If Pioneer auto-mcc can't fix it - you have to do manual levels match and EQing.
If I were you - I'd attempt a DIY sound room treatment - a very likely issue and very common as well.
I'm not expert on acoustic room treatments - it's a huge issue, but some basic things shouldn't be too hard to do.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello!

I'm seeking advice on improving the intelligibility of dialog on my home theater system.

The equipment list...

Pioneer VSX-1120-K
Fronts spks AR 10pi
Center - Polk CS1 series II
Sub - SVS PC12-NSD
Sony 560? BRD
Comcast cable

No sides, back, or hi fronts yet.
Using HDMI for audio

I've done the Mac set up apparently satisfactory to the receiver, DVD sound track effects and music sound good, but I'm not happy with the Dialog. I can hear it coming mostly from the center, but it's not crisp and easily understood. I had been using a speaker from an unused Logitec 5500 as a temporary center, observed the same problem, resulting in the purchase of the Polk.
I've been through trying the various codecs and some sound better than others, (neo 6 music sounding best), but the center is muted in this mode!
I must say that the menus on the receiver are intimidating, and the manual difficult.

Overall I'm simply unhappy with the system sound at this point!

I'd appreciate any ideas/pointers on improving the sound.

THANKS!
MAX

Your problem is a pig in a Polk.

Your AR's may be old, but they are based on the AR3 designed by the brilliant Ed Villchur. Your speakers are of a far higher standard than your center. Those speakers are very well balanced. Your center is not a good match. In fact it will be hard to find a good match. Try doing without your center and go to a Phantom Center.

If that does not work, then look at some of the three way centers from B & W.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hi Max. Good people are chiming in here.

What I will say is that if TLS thinks your speakers are good, then your speakers are probably very, very good. He is pretty darn demanding.

I am not as demanding, not yet anyways, and yet I also have issues with many Polk speakers. So with all of this is said, I wanted to say that I wholeheartedly agree trying the phantom center, and this is the reason I'm here, because you probably don't know what that means . . .

Go into your receiver menu and simply tell it that there is NO center speaker connected.

If you can link the PDF here for the manual, I promise you someone will eventually take a gander at it if you can't figure it out.

Once the center speaker is defeated, this channel will then be routed to your main speakers. They will split its duties.

The fact that your speakers are probably vertically arrayed, better positioned, with less resonating or diffracting things in the way, and lastly just having the superior speakers play the most critical thing: dialogue . . . there is a good chance you might really like it.

People will say that if your viewing position is centralized this can work fantastically. Some then might say that if viewership is widespread, people at the extremities will suffer more. Well, you know what, I've heard setups where I think phantom benefits the extremities the most, because 99.99% of center speakers in the world suffer lobing from horiz MTM design. Yours is too. Many of them seem to get to 180 degrees out of phase as soon as you're just 20 degrees offaxis.

Oh yeah some would also say that you now suffer compression since you're putting 3 channels into 2 speakers. Well, I'd rather have 2 excellent speakers do so, rather than a POS dedicated center taking on by far the most important channel in a mch system.

Anyways, give phantom a shot and report back.

 

[TLS Guy]

This Center would also likely be a good choice for you also.

 

[MaxVal]

Thanks all!

I have to agree with TLSGuy that the Polk doesn't seem to match the hype I've heard about it. Connecting it as a front with nothing else on, I find the sound flat and lifeless. I had expected a drastic improvement over the Logitec speaker I first tried. Not the case.
As to the suggested center, excellent reproducer no doubt, but OUCH! Not feasible at this time. I'm limited by my wife as to how much hardware I can cram into HER living room anyway, so I'll go back to no center (Phantom center - thanks Josten). She'll be happier without it for sure. I may be also. I had gone without it at first, but added it thinking it would bring out the dialog more. It didn't.

MAX

 

[rnatalli]

I'm thinking of two options that are a bit extreme if all else fails. First, since you mention the problem occurs when you're listening at low volume, try an Audyssey MultEQ receiver that uses Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. And the second, try different speakers.

 

[fotto]

Have you tried any acoustic treatments at your first reflection points? Often dialog problems can be traced back to comb filtering, with a major contributor being late reflections coming from your side walls, ceiling, and floor if not treated. Your brain cannot process these signals correctly along with the direct sound your hear from your front speakers and will affect dialog.

Try the following to see if it helps. Sit in your main listening position, have someone move a mirror along the right wall (keeping it flat against the wall). The area where you can see your FR/C/FL speakers in the mirror will define your first reflection point. Do the same with the left wall. Hang some bunched up fluffy towels, bankets, or seat cushions in those areas for absorption and see if that helps. If so, you just need to either buy or build some absorption panels to hang there. You can build your own very easily using Owens Corning rigid fiberglass OC 703 or similar.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Have you tried any acoustic treatments at your first reflection points? Often dialog problems can be traced back to comb filtering, with a major contributor being late reflections coming from your side walls, ceiling, and floor if not treated. Your brain cannot process these signals correctly along with the direct sound your hear from your front speakers and will affect dialog.

Try the following to see if it helps. Sit in your main listening position, have someone move a mirror along the right wall (keeping it flat against the wall). The area where you can see your FR/C/FL speakers in the mirror will define your first reflection point. Do the same with the left wall. Hang some bunched up fluffy towels, bankets, or seat cushions in those areas for absorption and see if that helps. If so, you just need to either buy or build some absorption panels to hang there. You can build your own very easily using Owens Corning rigid fiberglass OC 703 or similar.

Wow, Great first post and correct advice from new member's first post !
Something I'vent seen in while - and makes me very happy. No all hope lost just yet! Our typical first post is "Help me to pick $500 HTIB to fill and shake my stadium sized living room"

Welcome to the AH forum fotto !! Hope to see you help more people around these parts

 

[umr]

You might find this helpful. http://www.homecinemaguru.com/?p=1188

 

[TLS Guy]

You might find this helpful. http://www.homecinemaguru.com/?p=1188

Assuming the user is not deaf, the commonest cause is speakers with poor speech intelligibility, and that's a lot and likely most. Centers are often the worst of the lot.

 

[umr]

Assuming the user is not deaf, the commonest cause is speakers with poor speech intelligibility, and that's a lot and likely most. Centers are often the worst of the lot.

After working on more than 1000 surround systems most less than perfect center speakers can yield good dialog. It is rare that good dialog is not possible today.

 

[TLS Guy]

After working on more than 1000 surround systems most less than perfect center speakers can yield good dialog. It is rare that good dialog is not possible today.

If you make the speakers shouty with use of EQ you can get intelligible dialog.

However having a center that is a seamless blend with the mains and a really good speaker for music and everything else including speech is quite another matter.

The only system I have so far heard that achieves that is my own.

 

[umr]

I have heard many and they are not shouty, but are glorious.

 

[GranteedEV]

If you make the speakers shouty with use of EQ you can get intelligible dialog.

However having a center that is a seamless blend with the mains and a really good speaker for music and everything else including speech is quite another matter.

The only system I have so far heard that achieves that is my own.

have you heard the Geddes speakers?

 

[droht]

I agree with the phantom center approach, but I would also suggest that the OP make sure his current center is on plane with his ears. If it is mounted above the TV and not aimed down toward listening position the clarity will suffer, likewise if it is mounted low and not aimed up.

I had the same problem with matched front speakers, and speaker alignment pretty much fixed it. Upgrading the speakers then fixed it even more.

 

[Alex2507]

I've heard that center and it's not terrible. It's perfectly capable of producing intelligible speech. I'd look at what the auto set up did and at what volume it did it at.

Lots of things could go wrong but starting with positioning that speaker you can flip it so it points up and aims at you if it's placed below your TV and below the height of your ears. If it's tucked back in a shelf below the TV bring it forward as much as possible so it can't reflect off the shelf.

Check to see that it is set to 'SMALL' and crossed at 80Hz as a starting point. You should be able to bump it's relative volume by 3dbs to give it a hand. Some movies have terrible sound tracks which make dialog tough to understand. I get that Polk are not in the same league as B&W but what is?

Anyway my take is that we need to look further into the operator before we start throwing out the equipment. As has been mentioned get the recommended SPL meter and check the calibration. I've never trusted that auto stuff ... especially if the results are poor.

EDIT: Oh yeah ... post some pic's so we can see what we're dealing with.