Cross over set at 80Hz!..is this the norm?

[Patrukas777]

-head spinning- haha
You had me at HELLO

 

[jostenmeat]

If you look at the YPAO review you see how auto EQ can in theory thoroughly screw up EQ. So can Audyssey for the same reasons. YPAO leaves the ability to go in and tweak and adjust the EQ settings without starting from scratch. Next time I may actually buy a Yamaha for that reason alone if/when the 906 ever dies.

I never said anything can't be screwed up, and damn, YPAO is out from left field. Diehard MCAAC supporters were banging and bashing over their superiority due to more flexibility. That died out about a year or two ago.

And like I said, you STILL HAVE THE FLEXIBILITY to add/change what Audyssey does, if with other equipment.

Not all crossover adjustments are down. Audyssey sets my family room mains to full range and turns on doublebass even though the STs are only rated to 40hz. I always raise that crossover to 60hz which of curse throws off Audyssey's calculation. Now wouldn't it be handy to set the crossovers to where they really need to be and let the receiver rerun just the calculation? As for ease of use it's easy to have an normal and expert setup modes on $1000+ receivers. Expert mode would let you set your own crossovers before EQ.

The double bass is most definitely the first time I've ever heard of that, as far as Audyssey applying that for you. I've never once come across that, ever. Wow, that sucks! Maybe it's only a 906 thing.

I don't know what you meant by "not all xovers down".

Full range is an Onkyo issue. I've probably explained that a hundred times, so I don't doubt it's been explained a thousand times. Here's #101, Onkyo, yes ONKYO, NOT AUDYSSEY, chooses full range when Audyssey measures F3 to be below 80hz.

Audyssey's calibration is NOT thrown off because you raise the xover point!! It is "thrown off" when below the chosen xover point, but yeah I think I've beaten and bashed that in this thread alone.

Sorry I'm tired.

For now I just disable Audyssey's EQ functions.

Fair enough!! I keep it because, by ear, I thought it did wonders. That's after basic acoustics research, with double digit panels already in place. So, I was pretty surprised how much EQ could help. I am sure a pro with the right tools could do even MUCH better, or a pro building me some great speakers, but FWIW, I think it's the best feature available in a $500-100 processor/receiver. What a value IMO.

 

[Hocky]

The difference is that Audyessy apples correction based on the performance of the speakers at the set crossover. If you change the crossover afterward, you loose that correction.

So if Audyessy decides to set the crossover at 120Hz and finds the sub is just right, it will make no corrections. Then you lower the crossover to 80Hz, and there's a 100hz peak in your mains. That will not be corrected by Audyessy now because it was not discovered in calibration.

If Audyessy was forced to 80Hz before running correction: it should catch the 100Hz peak in the mains and smooth it.

If audyssey is seeing your speakers as >-3db @ 120hz, having it correcting from 80-120hz is meaningless. It won't try to correct it because it would likely be forcing the speaker into clipping due to the heavy gain needed.

 

[gene]

Lot's of misinformation in this thread. As you can read in the article I linked up about setting up multiple subs, simply run Audyssey, then go back and adjust crossover and level control as needed. The Audyssey curves will still be applied.

If you run Aud Pro with EXT mic and PC you can go back and edit the curves. I did this myself and it worked out very well.

Audyssey is far from perfect but its still IMO the best auto EQ out there. Trinnov looks like it has enormous potential as well so keep a watch out for that system. The Yamaha and Pioneer room correction systems have a lot of catch up work to do IMO.

 

[JerryLove]

How could a single stereo speaker/calibration possibly know it's NOT supposed to calibrate for center speaker material when it's working as a phantom stereo setup?

(Right? The source origin is immaterial to the calibration of the speaker . . . ?)

I do think something is lost in the middle somewhere.

The system does not calibrate for specific sources. The source is immaterial. Each speaker can be individually calibrated because there is no overlap of sound... except for the subwoofer.

I'm not aware that Audyssy levels the sub flat and then levels all the other speakers flat regardless of their F3 finding. If I am wrong and that is exactly what it does please let me know (I think that would result in a volume increase at the crossover point).

Is, at the end of the run, EQ applied to the sub for frequencies well above the set crossover?

 

[clouso]

With a setting of 80Hz, my bass sounded as if it was coming from the corner the sub was in.

My mains spec 33Hz-32kHz. I use a 60Hz x-over point.

Center specs 50Hz-32kHz. I use 80Hz here.

My LF actually sounds like it is coming from any speaker you walk-up to. Of coarse this took years, yes years of work. However, I believe the 60Hz x-over point has a lot to do with it.

Now if the avr in question only offers one x-over point, I would recommend basing the x-over 20 above the LF specs of the center.

Yes indeed the pioneer only offers me one set point for all speakers for x- over....the choices i have are 50hz...80Hz...100Hz...150Hz and 200Hz...so if my center is rated at 36Hz low frequency extension and if i add 20 we get 56...so with the choices i have with the pioneer should i lower it to 50Hz or just keep it at 80Hz?..

 

[lsiberian]

For Ported speaker systems the general rule is twice the F3 for a crossover point. For sealed systems it isn't as critical.

 

[zumbo]

Yes indeed the pioneer only offers me one set point for all speakers for x- over....the choices i have are 50hz...80Hz...100Hz...150Hz and 200Hz...so if my center is rated at 36Hz low frequency extension and if i add 20 we get 56...so with the choices i have with the pioneer should i lower it to 50Hz or just keep it at 80Hz?..

36 is not the spec I found. 55 is what I found to be the actual FR.

If it were mine, I would run 60. If I were to recommend a point, it would be 80.

20 above 55 is 75. Rounded to the nearest available point is 80.

Seeing as how the manufacturer is not afraid to post the ability to make it to 36, I would not be afraid to run 60.

20 above 36 is 56. Rounded to the nearest available point is 60, not 50.

I would not recommend 50. At all.

If you do try 60, be very careful using something like surround music, or a concert dvd. If you get a slap from the center, go back to 80.

 

[krabapple]

I never said anything can't be screwed up, and damn, YPAO is out from left field. Diehard MCAAC supporters were banging and bashing over their superiority due to more flexibility. That died out about a year or two ago.

MCACC (on my Pioneer 74txvi) is fun to play with, due to its flexibility....though it's easy to go way down the rabbit hole with twiddling the settings, especially if (like me) you haven't gotten around to checking the before/after results with objective room acoustical measurements (e.g., REQ Wizard). Its one-size-fits-all Xover for all speakers is not an issue for me, since I use the same model all around (which MCACC typically calls 'large' even though they aren't; I circumvent that by specifying 'THX speakers' at the outset of the MCACC run) . However, its lack of real subwoofer EQ is an issue, and will probably lead me to Audyssey for my next AVR purchase.


When and where (on this forum or elsewhere) did MCACC finally fall out of favor? I'd be curious to read those threads.

 

[jostenmeat]

MCACC (on my Pioneer 74txvi) is fun to play with, due to its flexibility....though it's easy to go way down the rabbit hole with twiddling the settings, especially if (like me) you haven't gotten around to checking the before/after results with objective room acoustical measurements (e.g., REQ Wizard). Its one-size-fits-all Xover for all speakers is not an issue for me, since I use the same model all around (which MCACC typically calls 'large' even though they aren't; I circumvent that by specifying 'THX speakers' at the outset of the MCACC run) . However, its lack of real subwoofer EQ is an issue, and will probably lead me to Audyssey for my next AVR purchase.


When and where (on this forum or elsewhere) did MCACC finally fall out of favor? I'd be curious to read those threads.

You know, it was the typical fanboy type of stuff, but it was at AVS. I really know next to nothing about MCAAC.

AFAIK, you are correct about the lack of sub EQ. IIRC, MCAAC does nothing below something like 63hz, or maybe even at a higher point, and absolutely nothing for the LFE, AFAIK.

This is where the biggest value with Audyssey lies. See, MultEQ has the same subwoofer resolution as MultEQ XT found in more expensive receivers. Therefore, MEQ is getting a huge proportion of what the XT version can do. Why do I say that when the satellite filter resolution is inferior by a factor of 8?

Because most any acoustics expert would tell you the most immediate issues to address with almost any given room is the bass. Going by this, one can also infer that Audyssey MultEQ techs are much more effective than MCAAC at addressing audio/room interaction, regardless of flexibility, resolution, etc.

 

[clouso]

36 is not the spec I found. 55 is what I found to be the actual FR.

If it were mine, I would run 60. If I were to recommend a point, it would be 80.

20 above 55 is 75. Rounded to the nearest available point is 80.

Seeing as how the manufacturer is not afraid to post the ability to make it to 36, I would not be afraid to run 60.

20 above 36 is 56. Rounded to the nearest available point is 60, not 50.

I would not recommend 50. At all.

If you do try 60, be very careful using something like surround music, or a concert dvd. If you get a slap from the center, go back to 80.

Well understood and since i cannot set it at 60Hz i will just leave it at 80Hz like it is right now...thx!

 

[zumbo]

Well understood and since i cannot set it at 60Hz i will just leave it at 80Hz like it is right now...thx!

Sorry, I missed the point that 60 was not an option at all.

 

[clouso]

Sorry, I missed the point that 60 was not an option at all.

Its ok i just knew you knew but missed it.. lol.. and i apreciated your advices and better knowledge then me about that subject and its clear to my mind now and today i learned !...you explained your self very well...thx again!.

 

[jostenmeat]

I do think something is lost in the middle somewhere.

The system does not calibrate for specific sources. The source is immaterial. Each speaker can be individually calibrated because there is no overlap of sound... except for the subwoofer.

See, if the source is immaterial, why is there "no overlap of sound except for the subwoofer"? I really haven't followed your logic here yet.

I'm not aware that Audyssy levels the sub flat and then levels all the other speakers flat regardless of their F3 finding. If I am wrong and that is exactly what it does please let me know (I think that would result in a volume increase at the crossover point).

No, I never said that. It will calibrate for everything ABOVE the measured F3. Again, this doesn't mean you HAVE to use the full bandwidth that it calibrated for (I don't, and most people don't).

Also, I need to point out that the use of the term "flat" can be misleading. Again specific to individual receiver companies, there are a variety of Target Curves. The Flat is indeed flat, and the other most common one used is the Reference (Audyssey/House), that has an HF roll off (not flat). THEN, there are even more, such as the curve designed by Paul Barton (PSB) for NAD, or Fronts (seen that with Marantz at least), and for all I know there could be more. That's already 4 different target curves off the top of my head.

I can't figure out why you would ask about a volume increase at the xover point. Remember, it is the receiver's bass mgmt applying the xover, whatever the slopes, not Audyssey. The xover point is chosen finally by YOU, and the the bass mgmt will implement the slopes.

Is, at the end of the run, EQ applied to the sub for frequencies well above the set crossover?

I assume it calibrates high enough for all intents and purposes of the typical subwoofer. The bursts that Audyssey uses for calibrating go up pretty high, and I hear some funky stuff from my subwoofer that I've never heard with any bluray disc, ever. Since I use XT (8 positions), that is 800 bursts just from my subwoofer that my Audyssey unit is measuring.

My subwoofer is crossed at 80hz. Still, since xovers are not brick walls, I leave the LFE LPF at the maximum of 120hz available with my Onkyo.

If I could, I'd also add a HP to my subwoofer with my Crown's BandManager software, but I can only set it starting at 20hz. Ideally, I would have it around 15hz, plus minus, therefore no subwoofer HP for me. Though I'm not too worried about it, as I never listen to reference level.

 

[JerryLove]

I assume it calibrates high enough for all intents and purposes of the typical subwoofer. The bursts that Audyssey uses for calibrating go up pretty high, and I hear some funky stuff from my subwoofer that I've never heard with any bluray disc, ever. Since I use XT (8 positions), that is 800 bursts just from my subwoofer that my Audyssey unit is measuring.

But do you know?

Perhaps an example:
You have a RF speaker than is +3db (from wherever Audyssy wants it) @ 100Hz.
You have a Subwoofer that is +12db @100 Hz.

Audyssy sets the crossover at 80 Hz. What is the Audyssy SPL adjustment for a 100Hz note played on the FR channel?

I assume it's -12db as it will be fed to the sub.

Now you move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz and play the same note. What are the adjustments being done?

 

[Hocky]

But do you know?

Perhaps an example:
You have a RF speaker than is +3db (from wherever Audyssy wants it) @ 100Hz.
You have a Subwoofer that is +12db @100 Hz.

Audyssy sets the crossover at 80 Hz. What is the Audyssy SPL adjustment for a 100Hz note played on the FR channel?

I assume it's -12db as it will be fed to the sub.

.... 100hz would play to the RF only, so it would play +3db.

Now you move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz and play the same note. What are the adjustments being done?

The RF doesn't play, the sub does, and audyssey corrects the sub to the appropriate level.

Of course, there is some interaction due to the crossover, but that is all receiver dependent by the slopes used. I am not sure what you're trying to show or argue?

 

[jostenmeat]

But do you know?

No, I extremely specifically used the word "assume" for a reason. Go ask Chris. I would bet very good money Audyssey runs a calibration file for the subwoofer that is way beyond 80hz. I don't know it for a fact, to be redundantly clear.

Perhaps an example:
You have a RF speaker than is +3db (from wherever Audyssy wants it) @ 100Hz.
You have a Subwoofer that is +12db @100 Hz.

Audyssy sets the crossover at 80 Hz. What is the Audyssy SPL adjustment for a 100Hz note played on the FR channel?

I assume it's -12db as it will be fed to the sub.

I seriously do not know how to make myself more clear than I already have with previous posts.

Now you move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz and play the same note. What are the adjustments being done?

The only adjustment being done is the raising of the xover point by yourself. If Audyssey is engaged, then the 80-120 bandwidth will also be calibrated for. Your* choosing of the xover point will determine if the sub will play 80-120hz.

Wherever you decide to send this 80-120 information, whether RF or the sub, either one will "try" to do its best with the Audyssey calibration information (unless of course the RF was found to have an F3 above 120hz, depending on your scenario). They won't change anything with the calibration, it's only you who decides in the end where to send this passband.

For redundancy, I need to repeat yet again that Audyssey does not select your xover. It is the receiver, but really, it should be you if only due to improper implementations.

Lastly, I have a little piece of advice for you. When people make multiple posts on your behalf, in multiple threads, sometimes with a seriously considerable effort, it's sometimes a good thing to say thank you, if only even just once. Sometimes, it makes life a bit better. Well, that's just my opinion on the matter.

You're welcome.

 

[jostenmeat]

Since I use XT (8 positions), that is [stirke]800[/strike] bursts just from my subwoofer that my Audyssey unit is measuring.

Excuse that brainfart/typo, it is 80 times (8 positions x 10 bursts). Total bursts with my 7.1 system is 640 bursts. I believe MultEQ is 6 positions, and I do not know how many the latest XT32 does. The subwoofer units like the SVS do a whole bunch for sure with 32 positions. I suppose Audyssey Pro might be 32 positions, but I have no idea.

Ok, I looked up Pro, it is indeed 32 positions.

Ok I looked up XT32, and at the website it says it still remains at 8 positions.

 

[GranteedEV]

But do you know?

Perhaps an example:
You have a RF speaker than is +3db (from wherever Audyssy wants it) @ 100Hz.
You have a Subwoofer that is +12db @100 Hz.

Audyssy sets the crossover at 80 Hz. What is the Audyssy SPL adjustment for a 100Hz note played on the FR channel?

I assume it's -12db as it will be fed to the sub.

Now you move the crossover from 80Hz to 120Hz and play the same note. What are the adjustments being done?

Huh?

Crossover is done AFTER audessey EQ applies itself to each individual speaker. They're EQed flat first, then crossed over.

 

[JerryLove]

.... 100hz would play to the RF only, so it would play +3db.

So Audyssey corrects every speaker to "flat" (or whatever curve it chooses) through some range (presumably 20-20k on the mains).

If, for example, I have some Bose cube as a FR main, it will try to adjust it flat 20-20k (within whatever +db limitation the software imposes). In actual play, no signal may come in some of that range (below crossover), but Audyssey has stored and applied correction information to the FR speaker for the entire range?

OK. That makes sense; but conflicts with something I had been told in the past here, which is why I'm talking so long to get it clear.