Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I feel the need to get a new CD of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. There are way too many different recordings available.

Amazon has numerous choices, I could go with Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

Or I could try what what ArkivMusic recommends.

I now have an vinyl copy of it I bought in the mid 1970s. I believe it is by Leonard Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic, but right now I'm not certain. I'd like the convenience of CD, a stellar recording more modern than what was available in 1975, and possibly something different than Bernstein & the NYP.

Anyone have a favorite they can recommend?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
This is my favorite.



Daniel Barenboim is a legend with or without Beethoven.

It will play on a dvd player and here's where I tried having deep thoughts on the disc with limited results. I've since listened to other recordings on vinyl and CD. The real basis of my preference is the vocals in the 4th movement. The best system I heard it on was at Greg's down in Texas. I think that is because he had the amps to push the vocals from 0-60 in no time flat. Maybe it was the room. I don't really know why but by that one scream is how all subsequent systems have been judged and found lacking.

Any other rendition completely lacked what I found most to my liking about this rendition.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
This is my favorite.



Daniel Barenboim is a legend with or without Beethoven.

It will play on a dvd player and here's where I tried having deep thoughts on the disc with limited results. I've since listened to other recordings on vinyl and CD. The real basis of my preference is the vocals in the 4th movement. The best system I heard it on was at Greg's down in Texas. I think that is because he had the amps to push the vocals from 0-60 in no time flat. Maybe it was the room. I don't really know why but by that one scream is how all subsequent systems have been judged and found lacking.

Any other rendition completely lacked what I found most to my liking about this rendition.
Thanks for recommendation. Only after I read your interesting story about being a lost 4-year old, where you made it clear that you really like the surround sound version of this music, did I realize that this is a DVD-Audio disc.

You did mention that it does play on a standard DVD player (that's what I have). Is the non-DVD-A track a standard 2-channel audio track, or is something like Dolby Digital or DTS surround sound? I guess I'm asking do I need to hear the DVD-Audio track to hear what you like so much?

I'd rather buy a CD, even at $16.95, than a universal BD player. You can go ahead and berate me for being cheap.
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I have owned at least 3 complete cycles of these symphonies, and if I could only keep one, I'm pretty sure it would be the Zinman cycle. The whole cycle is only $27, and if you still only want the 9th, it's only $7.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-Ludwig-van/dp/B0009ML2L0

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IFP6/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0009ML2L0&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1KF68E55NJEM5QCD04NR

I have the Gardiner cycle in possession too, which I got previously. I thought that was the very fastest rendition I had ever heard, but then I got the Zinman which is even faster, in fact a bit too fast for some experts and a former conductor friend.

I think the tempi are fantastic. To me, it's more natural. Maybe I just have a short attention span though, seriously. For instance, I think Bach is by far and away the greatest composer, yet I can't really sit down to listen to some of his greatest works (including a work that "experts" say is the greatest piece of any art ever made by a human), because they are so long (particularly the masses).

I've picked TLS' and others brains before, lemme find the thread. One poster gave his thoughts on three different cycles, but it's the last you might be interested in reading:

The Suitner set with the Berlin Staatskapelle on Denon is variable, no bad performances and a few quite good. It has some fine things in it and the sound quality is very good to excellent.
The 4th is among the very best, and the sound quality is very fine,
the 6th is really very nice, not very individual but I quite like it,
the 9th is as good as it gets, I think, great performance from the orchestra and chorus, with a very competent set of soloists--and the sound quality is superb, though some find it too reverberant. I remember the Penguin Guide didn't like it, but I do.
Back to my Gardiner and Zinman. I also picked TLS' brain on the Gardiner for instance, and he taught me it is using a sort of hybrid micing technique, resulting in an interesting compromise. There are times when it sounds more contrived than the Zinman, IMO. What I do like (again if I don't misremember) is that about half or more are recorded "live".

I am under the impression that the Zinman is using minimal mic technique, and I believe this is my preferred (and I think for TLS too, but take with salt as I've been misremembering so many things recently).

Certain classical recordings seem to sometimes "fake" the presentation/imaging of any certain instrument, for a rather contrived sense of stage. The minimal technique seems to be the most natural.

The thing I like most about the Zinman is the clarity of the secondary lines. This kind of trait can make any particular work sound like a new work you are hearing for the first time. It's worth a shot for $7.

edit: forgot to provide the thread where I was asking about Zinman and other things . . . .
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52476
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… I thought that was the very fastest rendition I had ever heard, but then I got the Zinman which is even faster, in fact a bit too fast for some experts and a former conductor friend.

I think the tempi are fantastic. To me, it's more natural.
I've always liked the Carlos Kleiber version of the 7th symphony. Is that as fast as the Zinman? I have both the DG CD and a DVD of Kleiber conducting the Amsterdam Concertgebau (sp?) which is a bit faster.

Thanks for you ideas. How can I lose for $7?

Where is TLS Guy? I'd like to hear his opinion too.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I guess I'm asking do I need to hear the DVD-Audio track in to hear what you like so much?
To hear the outstanding vocal performance on this disc at your house I would just go with stereo and rely on the Song Towers to do their thing.

From a regular DVD player you can get a DD 5.0 surround mix that I would think has to come close to the 'Advanced Resolution Multi-Channel Surround (96 KHz/24-bit) ' available from a DVD-A player which produced the enveloping thing I had trouble describing in the linked thread.

I don't think I've listened to this out in my living room in multi channel since I most recently rearranged the set up but I think I now have the ability to go from DD to 2 Channel to MC Analog relatively quickly. I'll either play around with that or just listen to it later on when Cheryl is out.

There may very well be better orchestral performances of the 9th from any number of viewpoints. My assertion is that this one takes the cake for vocals. Jostenmeat and TLS would be the guys whose opinions I would seek on the matter.

EDIT: I wouldn't spend any money on another DVD-A player either with the discs becoming more expensive and BR Audio on the horizon but my last player only cost me $50. Pretty good deal considering that back in the day it sold for $600. Now the cables end up costing more than the player.

I've always liked the Carlos Kleiber version of the 7th symphony.
Good to know. I have the 5th and 7th by him on DVD-A also. I hadn't paid much attention to it before but now that I know you like it ... well, now I value it more.
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I've always liked the Carlos Kleiber version of the 7th symphony. Is that as fast as the Zinman? I have both the DG CD and a DVD of Kleiber conducting the Amsterdam Concertgebau (sp?) which is a bit faster.

Thanks for you ideas. How can I lose for $7?

Where is TLS Guy? I'd like to hear his opinion too.
I've always liked the Kleiber too, until I heard other recordings. I had heard it on multiple systems, but never one worthy of an AHer. I said in the other thread that the secondary lines seem to be lost or buried. I was (surely mistakenly) guessing that the mixers had brought out the melody big time on certain famous mvmts like the "funeral march" or the Allegretto at the expense of the secondary lines, maybe so that they could put it on one of those "adagio by candlelight wanna sex you up compilations". I am kidding, and am probably wrong, but I was disappointed afterwards. That said, the producers pretty much have the final say in these matters. I remember I had a Japanese trumpeter roommate once, and he was Stravinsky crazy. He played back some outtakes of the conductor performing/recording his own work, I think it was for CBS at the time, and it was the producers who were demanding and having their way with the interpretation. I was shocked, especially when considering that he was known to be egomaniacal.

pzaur is a good person to ask as well, though he might not know the Beethoven stuff as well, because Beethoven really used the string sections a lot, and Pat really likes the brass stuff. :p

As for your question, I don't think anybody is as fast as Zinman. Gardiner is the second fastest I've heard; I don't know about the 9th particularly, but at least on average, Zinman is definitely fastest, if not for all of them. I will look later tonight hopefully, and I will put in the last movement for a critical listening session. After all, my HT is torn down, and I am going through some AV withdrawal symptoms. If I don't get to it, it's because I'll be cutting fabrics and gluing, but if you can wait a couple of days, I will promise you that I will. FWIW, my reference for vocal clarity is Lassus' Missa Pro Defunctis performed by the Hilliard Ensemble. I haven't heard clearer yet. Edit: it doesn't pertain to you because it's on BD, but the Carmen opera that TLS raved about, the final act, holy guacamole it sounds incredible on even my lesser speakers in the mch HT. If I actually owned that, it could be a new reference possibly, but alas it's not stereo.

 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I personally like Herbert von Karajan for the Beethoven symphonies.

You are going to get quite a bit of disagreement about what is best. I recommend that you visit your local public library and check out all the versions they have on CD, and listen to them to see if you like any of them. You might also want to search online for professional reviews, as most professional reviewers have heard more versions than most people who are going to post here. Karajan is often regarded as great for the Beethoven symphonies, though some do not like him.
 
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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I tried to compare the DVD-Audio to Dolby Digital (in the Denon). I failed miserably. In my Denon that disc would not go to DD via a digital coax connection. I put the disc into my Panny BR player and got DD no problem. This is after I spent a couple of hours level matching the DD output over coax and 6 channel analog outs with a DVE calibration disc so that I could compare.

I then tried a Sheryl Crow concert DVD (in the Denon) that has both DD and DTS tracks. I got both formats across the coax just fine and could compare it to the 6 channel analog outs. The good news is that however I have the Denon set for bass management makes the 6 channel outs the clearly preferred output based on the first 10 seconds of track 4 (My Favorite Mistake).

Thank you for motivating me to spend the time calibrating with DVE, level matching my inputs and comparing for preferences. Listening to the Beethoven I found the surrounds a tad hot for my tastes and adjusted accordingly. Man, I hope I'm done tinkering with this for a while.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I personally like Herbert von Karajan for the Beethoven symphonies.

You are going to get quite a bit of disagreement about what is best. I recommend that you visit your local public library and check out all the versions they have on CD, and listen to them to see if you like any of them. You might also want to search online for professional reviews, as most professional reviewers have heard more versions than most people who are going to post here. Karajan is often regarded as great for the Beethoven symphonies, though some do not like him.
I like his interpretation of Beethoven's work as well. I managed to find on used vinyl, Deutche Gramaphone, the complete symphonies. These are all mono recordings.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I like his interpretation of Beethoven's work as well. I managed to find on used vinyl, Deutche Gramaphone, the complete symphonies. These are all mono recordings.
Probably, you have a mono issue of a stereo recording. It was common in the early days of stereo recording to issue LPs both in mono and in stereo, because although one can play a stereo LP on a mono turntable, it is considered to be better to have a mono recording for a mono turntable, and most people had mono equipment when stereo first came out. RCA even went so far as to actually use different microphones for the mono and stereo releases, which now can be all heard on SACD rereleases with all three front channels used, but with no surround, on the multichannel portion of the discs. (RCA, for many early stereo recordings, used three microphones, with three master tracks, the right and left microphones being used for the stereo tracks, and the center microphone used for the mono track.) I don't think Deutsche Grammophone did that with these recordings, but I am not certain.

My guess is that you have the recordings done in the early 1960's with the Berlin Philharmonic. Herbert von Karajan recorded the complete Beethoven symphonies four times, once in the 1950's with the Philharmonia Orchestera of London for EMI, most (but not all) being recording in mono, as was common in the 1950's, a second time in the early 1960's with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra in stereo for Deutsche Grammophone, and again with the same orchestra for the same label in the 1970's and in the 1980's, with the 1980's recording in digital audio.

For the CD buyer, it gets even more complicated, as at least two of the versions have been available as original release and remastered (the ones recorded in the 1960's and the 1980's), with the remastered versions generally being regarded as better, but costing more (particularly the ones from the 1960's, which also have been remastered and rereleased on SACD).

People argue over which is best, sometimes favoring one symphony from one of these recordings while favoring other symphonies from other recordings, and sometimes people simply like one set best. The most commonly selected version as "best" are the recordings from the 1960's. In my opinion, the versions share more in common than the impression one may get from reading comparisons, though I think that, from a pure performance standpoint, I agree that overall, the 1960's performances might be the best. However, I rather like the last set from the 1980's, and think that they are often overlooked and neglected. They also have the advantage of having the least tape hiss and other such issues, as they were recording with high quality digital equipment in the 1980's instead of with earlier analog equipment.

In a way, it is confusing and troublesome to select a recording from Herbert von Karajan, as one tries to figure out which is best, usually without the benefit of hearing them all, but in another way it is not a problem, because they are all of them good and worth hearing (I have heard some of all four of them, and all of some of them). If one is poor, I recommend the original release of the 1960's version, which can be had very inexpensively, and if one cares about tape hiss (which is not bad for the eras in which they are recorded, but still...), one should go with the digital versions, preferably the remastered ones (issues in the "Karajan Gold" series), but either release of the 1980's recordings being good. Beyond that, I recommend further research on one's own, as I cannot know the taste of whoever is reading this at the moment.

And, again, check your local libraries for recordings that they have, so you can listen to some different versions of things before you buy.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Pyrro,

You are correct that its the Berlin Philharmonic recorded in the 60s. I also have the CD version of the same recordings but in stereo.

I just remembered this post I made back when...about a conductor called Furtwangler..

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56556&highlight=Beethoven


Judging on Beethoven's 5th, I prefer Furtwangler's interpretation better. IHO, Furtwangler captured the intensity better than Karajan. Unfortunaltely according to TLS, there are no clean recordings available which is too bad.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I personally like Herbert von Karajan for the Beethoven symphonies.
I like his interpretation of Beethoven's work as well. I managed to find on used vinyl, Deutche Gramaphone, the complete symphonies. These are all mono recordings.
He recorded the complete cycle at least four times! I think a cycle each for the decades of the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80s. I guess it is the second time, in the 60's, that is the most famous cycle.

Which one do you guys like? :p
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
He recorded the complete cycle at least four times! I think a cycle each for the decades of the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80s. I guess it is the second time, in the 60's, that is the most famous cycle.

Which one do you guys like? :p
I discuss that above in my second post in this thread.

I have somewhat mixed feelings about which is best. I probably actually listen to the recordings from the 1980's the most (in the remastered versions; I have all the symphonies in that release). I suppose that, overall, I prefer that of what I have. I also own a few from the 1950's, all of the original CD release from the 1960's (my brother owns the remastered CD version of these), and a couple of the original release versions from the 1980's. (My brother owns one or two from the 1970's.) So I have heard quite a few of the recordings he has made (at least a sampling from all four cycles), some in both the original release and in a remastered release.

I think all are good, and in terms of recorder quality, it goes up with each successive recording, but the space in which they are recorded is different, as well as the placement of the microphones. So one might like an earlier recording better, even though the recorder used was inferior.

And in the cases where I have heard both the original release and a remastered version, I have always preferred the remastered versions. But even so, I have not bothered replacing my original CD release of the 1960's performances, though I have thought about getting the SACD remasters.

In terms of performance, I think I like the 1960's version best overall, but I don't think it is better in every way. To me, it all sounds like the same conductor, with mostly the same ideas of how it should be done, simply recorded at different times and places, with different musicians. In other words, I don't think the differences are as dramatic as some would have you believe.

So, my advice on what to get depends upon what matters to one in a recording. If one cannot stand tape hiss from old recordings, I would definitely recommend getting the recordings from the 1980's. If one does not care about such things, but wants the best performance, I would recommend getting the 1960's recordings (which release would depend upon one's budget and how much one really does not care about the sound quality, though they are not as dramatically different sounding as some would have you believe; they are, after all, remasters, not different recordings).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I feel the need to get a new CD of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. There are way too many different recordings available.

Amazon has numerous choices, I could go with Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

Or I could try what what ArkivMusic recommends.

I now have an vinyl copy of it I bought in the mid 1970s. I believe it is by Leonard Bernstein and the NY Philharmonic, but right now I'm not certain. I'd like the convenience of CD, a stellar recording more modern than what was available in 1975, and possibly something different than Bernstein & the NYP.

Anyone have a favorite they can recommend?
I have to say I really like the Vanska with the Minnesota orchestra. I prefer it over Solti. The other one I like is the Bernstein performance when the Berlin Wall fell.

The engineering in the Vanska series is superb. I usually always include one of those SACDs in demos of this system. The Minnesota Orchestra is laid out right in front you with superb depth perception. I know orchestra hall well and it so close to being there it is uncanny.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Everyone - Thanks for all your help. I was looking for an easy way to choose one recording of the 9th when there are apparently many good choices available.

TLS Guy said the words I guess I wanted to hear:

The engineering in the Vanska series is superb … The Minnesota Orchestra is laid out right in front you with superb depth perception. I know orchestra hall well and it is so close to being there it is uncanny.

I ordered the Vanska version of the 9th from ArkivMusic this morning :D. Happy birthday to me (Thanksgiving Day this year).

Alex - your comments about the DVD-A version were compelling, but I'll have to wait until I get a more modern DVD player. I haven't yet got enough use out of my $30 Sony ;).

If I had to pick one Beethoven symphony as a favorite, it would be the 7th. And the recording I have (and love) of that is by Carlos Kleiber on DG. It was recorded in the mid 1970s, and may not be the up to today's standards, but I never get tired of it. I used it as a demo the day I decided I had to buy SongTowers.
 
A

audiofox

Full Audioholic
Everyone - Thanks for all your help. I was looking for an easy way to choose one recording of the 9th when there are apparently many good choices available.

TLS Guy said the words I guess I wanted to hear:

The engineering in the Vanska series is superb … The Minnesota Orchestra is laid out right in front you with superb depth perception. I know orchestra hall well and it is so close to being there it is uncanny.

I ordered the Vanska version of the 9th from ArkivMusic this morning :D. Happy birthday to me (Thanksgiving Day this year).

Alex - your comments about the DVD-A version were compelling, but I'll have to wait until I get a more modern DVD player. I haven't yet got enough use out of my $30 Sony ;).

If I had to pick one Beethoven symphony as a favorite, it would be the 7th. And the recording I have (and love) of that is by Carlos Kleiber on DG. It was recorded in the mid 1970s, and may not be the up to today's standards, but I never get tired of it. I used it as a demo the day I decided I had to buy SongTowers.
Looks like I'm too late to this party, but I wanted to put my two cents in for the George Szell/Cleveland Symphony recordings from the 60s-they were the first I had heard ad are still among my favorites (I own many of the others referenced here). I have the original vinyl box set, which comes out for special occasions and holidays, but most or all of them are also available on CD. The CD of Zubin Mehta and the New York Phil is also very good-as others have said, there is no lack of high quality recordings of this classical benchmark.

However, my number one favorite is the 9th as performed by the Cincinnati Symphony under Thomas Schippers in December 1973-it never made it to a release, but I was one of the tenors in the chorale. :)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
However, my number one favorite is the 9th as performed by the Cincinnati Symphony under Thomas Schippers in December 1973-it never made it to a release, but I was one of the tenors in the chorale. :)
Excellent!

My music teacher back in the 60s thought George Szell/Cleveland Symphony and Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra were the best in the US and among the best in the world. I thought he was an extremely cool guy, so I of course agreed with him. He made me memorize the names of all the conductors of major symphony orchestras in the US at the time, and would occasionally quiz me.

This evening I actually found my old LP copy of the 9th. It was by Eugene Ormandy & the Philadelphia Orchestra and the Norman Nabertackle Choir. There was no copyright date, so I assume it was made before 1970. I'll have to compare it to the new one when it arrives ;).
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Today I got the new CD of Betthoven's 9th by Osmo Vanska & the Minnesota Orchestra. Actually it is a hybrid SACD, but I didn't notice that until I got today. The CD layer works fine on my DVD player.

It sounds spectacular, dynamic, electrifying, thrilling, and breathtaking. I've run out of adjectives, but I think you get the point :D.

I want to thank TLS Guy again for recommending this. The recording quality and sound engineering makes this heads and shoulders better sounding than my old vinyl record.

Buying from ArkivMusic.com is a pleasure. Although there is nothing wrong with Amazon, ArkivMusic specializes in classical music and they are worth supporting.

Tonight I get to hear some live music at Strathmore Music Center, the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra is performing:

RAVEL Ma mère l’oye (Mother Goose) Suite
PROKOFIEV Violin Concerto No. 1
SHOSTAKOVICH Symphony No. 10​
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Wonderful! While Prokofiev's 2nd violin concerto is definitely the more famous of the two, I much prefer the first. I love the opening in particular. Shostakovich is one of my favorite composers of all, but I am not familiar with the 10th, nor many of his symphonies, unfortunately. Let me know what you think of the work, and the concert!
 

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