Vienna Acoustics Music

[haraldo]

Fine. And my personal belief system has decided that because Vienna Acoustics does not give sufficient measurements, then they are not worth an audition. See the problem here? My personal beliefs may be holding me back from one of the most enjoyable speaker systems I've ever heard. And to think that could easily be rectified with a frequency response / off axis graph and some impedance curve graphs?

Hope it's not like this...... we should have an open mind, and even audition speakers from manufactureres that don't even provide any measurements or minimal info, In my mind it's wrong to not audition products because there is not enough tech info available..... well.... it's also fun to do this auditioning, provided the resellers can really give you proper auditioning possibilities...

just for fun you should check some of the VA products too, if possible... they may not at all be your deal, or they could be? an d there's a bunchload of other nice speakers, some even with minimal measurements available, some of them may be really good..... or not

Well I'm suggesting that when an ad doesn't tell me much, it pretty much means that it's not worth my time. There's 1000s of speaker companies out there - i'd prefer to listen to the ones made by those who show me their product's credibility.

I basically agree with you, but in my opinion it doesn't mean that the specs should have pages up and down of measurements, even if a simple waterfall plot is not available, it will still be worthwhile to check out the speakers.... Dynaudio is one of the most respected brand on the consumer and pro market... I cannot remember ever to have seen any measurements on their website.... Another brand that I adore, and would not hesitate to buy.... even if good techspecs is hardly available...

 

[3db]

Specs aren't everything but it does help create a shortlist if one is looking at alot of speakers. However, an audition always needs to take place before buying. Its quite possible that Vienna Acoustics make great sound speakers despite the lack of specs. I'm not going to rule them out except for that they are way beyond my price point.

 

[KEW]

If you have listened to many speakers and looked at the measurements, you begin to get an understanding of what is important to you.
For example, FR graphs never look very pretty unless some type of smoothing algorithm has been applied. However, I know I do not like the sound of a speaker which has a dropped high end and will be wasting my time to audition one. I consider auditioning speakers fun, but not if the speaker has fundamental problems (to my ear). There are way too many speakers out there, and I don't consider it a proper audition unless I have a known speaker to A-B against. I cannot go into a strange room, listen to a single pair of speakers and walk out confident that the speaker (not the room) sounds better or worse than my own. This means a lot of effort goes into arranging the comparison.
If I can't get decent info on a speaker, I'm giving that time to one which I can get info on. I can research measurements on the web in fairly quick order, but a proper comparison takes me >4 hours, 2 of which is tearing apart and packing my speakers - and that doesn't inlude teh time to plan and coordinate the audition.
2 hours of listening seems pretty good for me - sure there are obvious differences which you can recognize in the first 30 minutes, but I think it is important to see if you are hearing a situation where Peter is being robbed to pay Paul, or if Peter is simply being robbed (in other words is the difference due to a trade off or simply a poorer product). Well, I digress.

 

[3db]

If you have listened to many speakers and looked at the measurements, you begin to get an understanding of what is important to you.
For example, FR graphs never look very pretty unless some type of smoothing algorithm has been applied. However, I know I do not like the sound of a speaker which has a dropped high end and will be wasting my time to audition one. I consider auditioning speakers fun, but not if the speaker has fundamental problems (to my ear). There are way too many speakers out there, and I don't consider it a proper audition unless I have a known speaker to A-B against. I cannot go into a strange room, listen to a single pair of speakers and walk out confident that the speaker (not the room) sounds better or worse than my own. This means a lot of effort goes into arranging the comparison.
If I can't get decent info on a speaker, I'm giving that time to one which I can get info on. I can research measurements on the web in fairly quick order, but a proper comparison takes me >4 hours, 2 of which is tearing apart and packing my speakers - and that doesn't inlude teh time to plan and coordinate the audition.
2 hours of listening seems pretty good for me - sure there are obvious differences which you can recognize in the first 30 minutes, but I think it is important to see if you are hearing a situation where Peter is being robbed to pay Paul, or if Peter is simply being robbed (in other words is the difference due to a trade off or simply a poorer product). Well, I digress.

Kew, if one knows their auditioning material intimately well, one can audition speakers without knowing the specs of the speaker. I do agree with you that auditioning one pair of speakers only doesn't help much in itself and that comparing them against others in A/B test like you mentioned makes one have a more informed decision. I won't rule out auditioning poorly specced speakers because one will never know with absolute certainty if they find a gem in with chaff.

 

[Boerd]

So you had Beethoven Baby Grand + REL R 505 sub.....
Quite interesting combo..... couldn't find your review, would be interesting to read your thoughts about this

Second and third URLs in my signature (just click don't try to copy) - somewhere down the page.
Anyway - they look really beautiful and sound good but for the money you can do better. One of the things I noticed in time - piano sounds "boxy" - like a bit of vibration or something but it just doesn't sound "real" and I know how a piano sounds like; I am in triple digit on opera/symphony concerts. If I am to guess it is not port noise. Also VA has a history to crossover the mids too low and that causes problems when you try to play the speaker loud - the Beethovens just don't "rock"

 

[TLS Guy]

Second and third URLs in my signature (just click don't try to copy) - somewhere down the page.
Anyway - they look really beautiful and sound good but for the money you can do better. One of the things I noticed in time - piano sounds "boxy" - like a bit of vibration or something but it just doesn't sound "real" and I know how a piano sounds like; I am in triple digit on opera/symphony concerts. If I am to guess it is not port noise. Also VA has a history to crossover the mids too low and that causes problems when you try to play the speaker loud - the Beethovens just don't "rock"

That is exactly what I noted about the Vienna speakers I auditioned. I think there was a good deal of cabinet vibration contributing to this.

Terry at Hi-Fi sound in Minneapolis also thought them dogs, and just about had to give them away.

 

[Boerd]

That is exactly what I noted about the Vienna speakers I auditioned. I think there was a good deal of cabinet vibration contributing to this.

Terry at Hi-Fi sound in Minneapolis also thought them dogs, and just about had to give them away.

Oh - and by the way - I looked through the port opening to see the inside of the cabinet. The beethoven HAD NO DAMPING stuff inside at all... What are they thinking??? I mean it would cost 20 more bucks on a 4500$ (or so) speaker ...
But again the looks/cabinetry are stunning.

 

[Patrick Butler]

Oh - and by the way - I looked through the port opening to see the inside of the cabinet. The beethoven HAD NO DAMPING stuff inside at all... What are they thinking??? I mean it would cost 20 more bucks on a 4500$ (or so) speaker ...
But again the looks/cabinetry are stunning.

You might not have seen it, but there is ample damping inside the cabinet. I replaced a crossover that took a lightening strike, so I know from experience. Using damping is important, but putting it in the right place is also important.

 

[Patrick Butler]

That is exactly what I noted about the Vienna speakers I auditioned. I think there was a good deal of cabinet vibration contributing to this.

Terry at Hi-Fi sound in Minneapolis also thought them dogs, and just about had to give them away.

Depending on which speaker you were listening to, you can take a look at John Atkinson's measurements of our Beethoven Concert Grand where he found a resonant mode on the sides of the cabinet around 600hz. Similar resonances can be found on cabinets from very respectable manufacturers making products quite a bit more expensive (3x) and are not of the variety that show up as boxy colorations, as can be read in numerous reviews of products with similar cabinet vibrations. What you most likely heard was the room sounding boxy.

 

[KEW]

Kew, if one knows their auditioning material intimately well, one can audition speakers without knowing the specs of the speaker. I do agree with you that auditioning one pair of speakers only doesn't help much in itself and that comparing them against others in A/B test like you mentioned makes one have a more informed decision. I won't rule out auditioning poorly specced speakers because one will never know with absolute certainty if they find a gem in with chaff.

A-B'ing a pair of speakers is the true evaluation of a pair of speakers, IMHO. Specs are not needed at all to accomplish this. The point I was making is that specs are a good way to sort out speakers before investing the effort to audition them.
If specifications are not available, but a speaker is well liked by many, I am willing to audition it.

 

[TLS Guy]

A-B'ing a pair of speakers is the true evaluation of a pair of speakers, IMHO. Specs are not needed at all to accomplish this. The point I was making is that specs are a good way to sort out speakers before investing the effort to audition them.

That's the point I frequently drive home.

 

[KEW]

Patrick,

Let me be succinct and ask:

Why does VA consider it a bad idea to provide measurement data for their speakers?

Thanks,
Kurt

 

[Patrick Butler]

Ah the eternal debate about measurements. I agree with GranteedEV, KEW and TLS that they are important, and a fundamental aspect of solid engineering. I just see them of limited use when deciding whether to buy or whether to use them in advertising. The vast majority of the speaker buying public has no idea how to interpret measurements and little understanding of the chicanery that goes on in moving microphones around for optimal measurements. I am reminded recently of reviews of two different loudspeakers. Both used shallow crossovers between the tweeter and midrange. In one design the microphone was placed at the tweeters axis at 50" distance and low and behold a suck out was found! In the other review the microphone was placed 4" below the tweeter at 50" and there was a smooth transition between the drive units. Naturally, one products measurements look superior when in reality with both designs, if you sat with your ear at the tweeters axis you would hear a suck out unless the front baffle was raked back.

While I don't always agree with the measurements of our products due to a variety of measuring techniques that don't necessarily have anything to do with how a product is used, I would rather rely on an impartial and professional party to publish measurements on products- such as Stereophile- than manufacturers own measurements. After all, I would never ask a woman how much she weighed and expect an honest answer.

 

[TjMV3]

You might not have seen it, but there is ample damping inside the cabinet. I replaced a crossover that took a lightening strike, so I know from experience. Using damping is important, but putting it in the right place is also important.

I find a very comical irony that these scientific "Accuracy" guys are on here perpetuating misconceptions based on a very brief peak into a port; which of course is irresponsible and inaccurate.

Funny how guys who are so concerned about truth and accuracy in Loudspeakers/loudspeaker design, have so little concern about the accuracy and truth of their statements of a specific brand of loudspeakers.

Funny how that works.

Seems like a scientific accuracy guy would know full well that dampening material needs to be placed in specific spots. usually determined by ...you know....measurements.

 

[Patrick Butler]

Patrick,

Let me be succinct and ask:

Why does VA consider it a bad idea to provide measurement data for their speakers?

Thanks,
Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Good questions. It's not that it is or isn't bad to publish measurement data, it's just that it is not relevant to selling loudspeakers. Wilson publishes nothing and neither does Magico or Sonus faber, while Paradigm does and Rockport Technologies does not. Depending on how you want to promote yourself, some companies spend quite a bit of time talking about their technology, others consider it a means to an end.

Their are many periodicals that have published extensive measurements on our products and they are available online. While I do not always agree with their measurement techniques and the way that products actually are used and perform in-room, they are nevertheless available. Suffice to say that you don't stay in business for 20 years, earn a patent for a driver design and grow 42% worldwide unless you know what you are doing.

I've enjoyed our dialog. Thank you.

Best wishes,

Patrick

 

[KEW]

Hi Kurt,

Good questions. It's not that it is or isn't bad to publish measurement data, it's just that it is not relevant to selling loudspeakers. Wilson publishes nothing and neither does Magico or Sonus faber, while Paradigm does and Rockport Technologies does not. Depending on how you want to promote yourself, some companies spend quite a bit of time talking about their technology, others consider it a means to an end.

Their are many periodicals that have published extensive measurements on our products and they are available online. While I do not always agree with their measurement techniques and the way that products actually are used and perform in-room, they are nevertheless available. Suffice to say that you don't stay in business for 20 years, earn a patent for a driver design and grow 42% worldwide unless you know what you are doing.

I've enjoyed our dialog. Thank you.

Best wishes,

Patrick

Fair enough!
Thanks for the straight answer!

Cheers!

 

[GranteedEV]

I find a very comical irony that these scientific "Accuracy" guys are on here perpetuating misconceptions based on a very brief peak into a port; which of course is irresponsible and inaccurate

Who is, again? Certainly not I, nor KEW, nor TLS Guy, who from my recollection were the so-called "condescending accuracy guys" in the thread.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi Kurt,

Good questions. It's not that it is or isn't bad to publish measurement data, it's just that it is not relevant to selling loudspeakers. Wilson publishes nothing and neither does Magico or Sonus faber, while Paradigm does and Rockport Technologies does not. Depending on how you want to promote yourself, some companies spend quite a bit of time talking about their technology, others consider it a means to an end.

Their are many periodicals that have published extensive measurements on our products and they are available online. While I do not always agree with their measurement techniques and the way that products actually are used and perform in-room, they are nevertheless available. Suffice to say that you don't stay in business for 20 years, earn a patent for a driver design and grow 42% worldwide unless you know what you are doing.

I've enjoyed our dialog. Thank you.

Best wishes,

Patrick

That is evidence we have really dumbed down the public?

So in effect you are saying we a wasting our time educating forum members!

At least publish an impedance curve. Just about everybody here understands that. Phase angles would be nice. Why? Well we get asked again and again, "Will this receiver x drive these speakers y?" We can't answer because the manufacturers are an obtuse cynical bunch and refuse to publish vital information about their product.

And I tell you what, most understand a waterfall plot, and unless you lie through your teeth then it is hard to fake. And yes, a waterfall plot tells you an awful lot about a speaker. I know damn well most manufacturers don't want you to see it.

It was not always that way. I came from the "Golden age" of British Audio.

The likes of Peter Walker, Gilbert Briggs, Raymond Cooke, Jim Rogers and Donald Chave to name but a few would get you by the scruff of the neck for your remarks.

All of the above were only too keen to spread the knowledge and teach. They did not keep secrets from each other let alone the buying public! They took the time to mentor me even as very young boy, for which I'm, eternally grateful.

Speaker manufacturers back then made their drivers available to the pubic. They published construction plans for speakers, some their production models, some not. Gilbert Briggs published classic books for the home constructor, and even tapped competitors to contribute sections. KEF published excellent constructor series publications. Donald Chave of Lowther also published detailed horn plans. In those days it was expected that the instruction manual contained a circuit diagram with all relevant voltages.

Your comments about the fact you would expect manufacturers to lie, speaks to the general lack of probity at all levels of business in our current age. This has a lot, and actually even everything, to do with the morass in which we find ourselves.

I actually regard your last two posts as shameful and speaking to an awful lot that is wrong with the world right now.

 

[Paradise]

Of all the customers that purchase speakers from a manufacturer like Vienna Acoustics or Sonus Faber, etc., let alone all the potential customers that have demo'd them, what percentage of them know or really care about a waterfall plot? I'm going to bet not enough for the trouble involved.

Does a customer looking to purchase a new Mercedes S550 care what tires come on it? No. They want a solution that is attractive and special, to them. I suppose you could try to argue with them how a Prius is better on paper than that S500, but would they really care?

I understand that there are quite a lot of speakers on the market, let alone all of the DIY alternatives, that perform and measure exceptionally well, but they are positively hideous! I guess I would consider buying them if I was a blind bachelor living in a warehouse, but I'm not. If the potential customer not only likes the way the speakers perform to their ears but also how they look, then they're happy.

 

[haraldo]

I think I am quite allergic to resonances and anomalies in speakers... mostly I don't like the speakers I audition and probably about 90% of products I listen to I don't like... I cannot vouch so much for the new Bethooven Grand line, but when it comes to Mahler I don't believe very much in resonances any places... Cabinet seems like a rock, baffle is something like 2 or 3 inches thick, side and back I don't know and inside I don't know....

Of all the customers that purchase speakers from a manufacturer like Vienna Acoustics or Sonus Faber, etc., let alone all the potential customers that have demo'd them, what percentage of them know or really care about a waterfall plot? I'm going to bet not enough for the trouble involved.

Does a customer looking to purchase a new Mercedes S550 care what tires come on it? No. They want a solution that is attractive and special, to them. I suppose you could try to argue with them how a Prius is better on paper than that S500, but would they really care?

I understand that there are quite a lot of speakers on the market, let alone all of the DIY alternatives, that perform and measure exceptionally well, but they are positively hideous! I guess I would consider buying them if I was a blind bachelor living in a warehouse, but I'm not. If the potential customer not only likes the way the speakers perform to their ears but also how they look, then they're happy.

I'm an engineer with many years of education.... I studied the master handbook of acoustics from front to back.... I think I know lots about speaker engineering....

I didn't buy Vienna Acoustics speakers but would be perfectly happy to get them, although I didn't... Instead I have ended up with speakers that's probably the ugliest you ever seen.... and they measure texbook perfect with perfect +/- 1.5 db from 100Hz to 20 Khz, Close to Textbook perfect impulse respone.... close to textbook response of square waves.... Close to absolutely phase coherence between 150Hz and 15KHz ....

I have never seen or heard any DIY products even getting close to the performance of Vienna Acoustics Mahler, but then again I have not listened to so many of these....
I'm not saying that for instance TLS guys speakers are better or worse than Mahler or Music, coz I have no clue, probably they're better than Mahler but that's not the point.....

So do I fall into the categorization of people that you mention above

So what do you mean?
- Does a speaker have to be ugly to bo good?
- Does a speaker have to be DIY to have a high price / performance ratio?
- Is it possible for a $20k speaker to be good value?
- Must a speaker be less than $2k to be good value?

I think your generalization is very strange... to say the least? do you believe that you know better than other people ?

Audio Physic is probably the most sold high end brand of speakers sold around here, finish is impeccable, their performance too.... Does your categorixation go for Audio Physic customers too?

The people demoing Vienna Acoustics around here are extremely knowledgeable.....

I think people buying an S500 cares about tyres too