Vienna Acoustics Music

[GranteedEV]

65% of the music picture? Care to explain where you got that stat? What does that even mean? And 33Hz-24KHz ± 3dB is no slouch of a speaker, nor as inaccurate as you seem to think it is (RF-82II). I understand that that spec isn't the whole picture, but that is one of the first things people look for on speaker stats. There seems to be a lot of preconceived notions floating around here.

I exaggerated... touche. There's real offenders out there, Klipsch makes way better speakers than them and I shouldn't have used Klipsch as an example.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi KEW,

Great response. Thank you.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote that many consider truth in audio to be accurate sound reproduction as opposed to most or even all. In my experience in retail or distribution you learn quickly that one persons truth is another person's dislike. This is why you can sit two experienced listeners who value "accurate " sound at an audio show, and have one really dig a system and the other person sitting right next to him have the exact opposite experience. Take those same two people traveling together and send them to the next room and the one who loved room A dislikes room B and the one who dislikes A loves B.

Now it would be tempting to take the position of TLS guy, which is that one room must be correct and the other wrong and by extension of that, one person must be settling for vile evil while the other reaches for truth. This is a very simplistic way of the world and one that actually cones about from seeking certainty instead of truth.

I think the entire notion of an accurate loudspeaker is a fallacy if your goal is to enjoy listening to music. This does not mean that good engineering and innovation have no role, it's just that for every designer who claims to have an accurate loudspeaker and can back them up with a host of measurements, there is another designer making the same claim but went a out tackling the problem by different means. Which one is correct when people sit in front of both designs and choose differently? The answer is that they are both correct for different people.

A common standard in assessing accuracy is to hear the same thing as the recording engineer. Great idea until you go to Sterling Sound or Gateway Mastering and realize that the engineers use different loudspeakers that sound different (both accurate mind you) in different rooms. Further, one mixes for the studio, one for the car. I think you see the problem here. Because different speakers sound different and because great engineers listen and have different tastes, unless you have the same system as a particular engineer you are never going to accurately reproduce the sound of his mix. Assuming you have this system, other recordings from other engineers are not going to be accurate.

Regarding using live music as a reference, the last 3 of 4 live concerts I have heard sounded like **** because the monitors sucked and the guy at the board was incompetent. Reading a blog recently on RMAF I actually read a reviewers post complaining about the sound of a live piano being played in a hotel lobby, and how he preferred a recorded version on his system. Pretty complicated.

I di think that it is a worthy goal to get people who love music in front of awesome sounding systems and open their eyes to what performance can do for their enjoyment of music.



Good Listening,

Patrick Butler

You are still advocating a policy of anything goes.

The Mahler speaker is received high praise in this thread. If it as good as Heraldo says it is, then the specs of that speaker should be superior, and it would be in your interest to show in your website detailed measurements. That would encourage the discerning to seek out the speakers for an audition.

Now I have stated many times that good loudspeakers are the sum intelligent compromise.

Making a perfect loudspeaker using cone type drivers is impossible. For one thing the drivers are spaced, if not spaced there is doppler distortion.

Now I would suggest that more honestly informing the public, would be to your benefit in the end.

Now take your new coaxial unit. You have stated the advantage of time coherence. I believe this is an advantage, especially for a center channel, were well focused speech is a high priority. I use SEAS coaxial drivers in this application myself.

However as Paul Klipsch pointed out the trade off is intermodulation distortion.

Why? Because the immediate boundary of the tweeter is moving, so the off axis tweeter response is modulated by the surrounding cone even if flat.

The current AES journal for the first time has good measured data on this, and it is very significant. The authors used a KEF Uni-Q driver and a modified vintage KEF B 139. The B 139 is a flat pistonic driver, to which the authors had added a tweeter.

The modulation of a 3 kHz tone by a 100 Hz tone was significant.

Now does this preclude the use of coaxial drivers? No, but it is another compromise to be added to the mix. In your case truth in advertising would enhance your credibility.

So far I have heard nothing from you are your company that does anything to separate you from the morass of poor and mediocre speaker manufacturers.

If you want to aspire to join the ranks of the few, then put out some good white papers on your website and expose yourself to honest peer review.

To duck it leaves one to conclude reasonable that the product is short of the PR hype.

 

[Alex2507]

... put out some good white papers on your website and expose yourself to honest peer review.

If their business model is making money there is no need to do as you suggest. Even if their speakers are absolutely divine, taking that course might wreck a perfectly good money making machine.

 

[haraldo]

You are still advocating a policy of anything goes.

The Mahler speaker is received high praise in this thread. If it as good as Heraldo says it is, then the specs of that speaker should be superior, and it would be in your interest to show in your website detailed measurements. That would encourage the discerning to seek out the speakers for an audition.

Now I have stated many times that good loudspeakers are the sum intelligent compromise.

Making a perfect loudspeaker using cone type drivers is impossible. For one thing the drivers are spaced, if not spaced there is doppler distortion.

Now I would suggest that more honestly informing the public, would be to your benefit in the end.

Now take your new coaxial unit. You have stated the advantage of time coherence. I believe this is an advantage, especially for a center channel, were well focused speech is a high priority. I use SEAS coaxial drivers in this application myself.

However as Paul Klipsch pointed out the trade off is intermodulation distortion.

Why? Because the immediate boundary of the tweeter is moving, so the off axis tweeter response is modulated by the surrounding cone even if flat.

The current AES journal for the first time has good measured data on this, and it is very significant. The authors used a KEF Uni-Q driver and a modified vintage KEF B 139. The B 139 is a flat pistonic driver, to which the authors had added a tweeter.

The modulation of a 3 kHz tone by a 100 Hz tone was significant.

Now does this preclude the use of coaxial drivers? No, but it is another compromise to be added to the mix. In your case truth in advertising would enhance your credibility.

So far I have heard nothing from you are your company that does anything to separate you from the morass of poor and mediocre speaker manufacturers.

If you want to aspire to join the ranks of the few, then put out some good white papers on your website and expose yourself to honest peer review.

To duck it leaves one to conclude reasonable that the product is short of the PR hype.

It's not so hard to find measurements of some of these products out there.... I disagree athet it's up to manufacturer to always provide measurements, some refuse to do this for a reason that it's not the measured performance you listen to.....

Examples, Joachim Gerhard from Audio Physic, Pat Mc Ginty of Meadowlark
Joachim Gerhard is out of Audio Physic now... but did he know how to make speakers, CHECK !!!
Meadowlark is unfortunately out of business now, but not due to poor speakers... did he know how to make speakers, CHECK !!!
Those two people knoe more about speakerbuilding than most people in thw world and they didn't want to publish specs because they believe it takes away the focus abvout what it's really about.... It doesn't mean they didn't make accurate linear well sounding speakers.... I would rather state the opposite as true...

From how I understand that Vienna Acoustics and Peter Gangsterer works is as free from hype as it gets, and wether the flat driver works or not... I have no idea, but when they say it does, I believe them because I have seen and heard speakers that really works.

Now the music must be absolutely stellar in performance to justify such a price tag, but thwn again if you compare to Audiophysic, Burmester, Mårten design or other extremely high-end brands the price tags of Vienna products is not so bad, to me they seem to be within an acceptable price / performance range, and if they really worked many many years on this, they need to get money back somewhere.... anyone here really interested in spending 5 years+ on one speaker design... I'm not, I would rather take the short way and burn a hell of a lot of money and get the fun quicker

 

[Patrick Butler]

Dear KEW and GranteedEV,

Apologies for responding to both of your posts at the same time, but the responses are related and I figured it would be better not too fill too much of this thread with my blathering.

Here are a couple of observations and you can take them for whatever value you find in them:

1. There is no accurate loudspeaker. Every transducer screws up the original waveform, some worse than others. Sound engineering principals are of vital importance when designing loudspeakers, but all design choices have consequences that result in different sounding designs, whether they be studio monitors from Meyer, Genelec, Tannoy, Westlake, or consumer products like YG, Magico, PSB or Vienna Acoustics. When somebody chooses a boring Studio Monitor, what they are really choosing is a boring monitor, but not an accurate one.

2. Live, un-amplified music is of limited value as a reference. I've personally watched rehearsals where a singer or musician while try multiple locations on a stage until he or she finds one that they feel sounds best. Take an example of cellist. Some positions on the stage emphasize the lower registers, others the brilliance of upper registers and some suck the life out of the instrument. Which is the real sound of a cello? All of them. The brilliance of our hearing mechanism is that while each position results in a different sound as the acoustic space acts as an equalizer or compressor, our ear recognizes the "cello-ness" of each and that's why we can identify it as a cello in the first place. At that point it is a matter of the performer's preference for how they want to sound. Taking one of my earlier posts as an example, several bloggers who attended RMAF heard a live piano and did not like the sound of the "reference" and much preferred the sound of a recorded piano played through their stereo. In short, they preferred the sound of their system's coloration over a live event. Happens every day.

3. Mastering- With relatively rare exceptions, all cd's and lp's that you purchase have passed through the hands of a mastering engineer. The mastering engineer's job is to make the mix of the musical event sound like what the artist had in mind. The basic tools for the job are equalizers, compressors and limiters. Each mastering engineer has a different playback system consisting of different rooms, different speakers, different compressors etc. Going to Bob Ludwig's Gateway mastering a few years back I was able to hear two different mastering suites. They sounded very different. Bob's own big room uses Eggleston Works Ivy as mains and Andra as supporting channels when he does 5.1 mixes. His system sounds different than the engineers at Sterling Sound or Saul Zantz film studios. None of them have the conceit to consider their systems accurate. They are merely tools to allow the final stage of an artistic process to come to fruition using technical accumen guided by taste and ability. Some master so that the recording sounds great on their main system while others master so that the recording sounds great in their Jeep (true story.)

4. Your playback system. The current state of affairs is that there is no system which allows you to hear what the mastering engineer heard (which is THE reference) unless you are that mastering engineer. Every other system screws up the recording in one way or another. Which versions of screwed up we pick is personal preference, or to use TLS Guy's line "vile evil."

5. Because there is no accurate loudspeaker, the things that guide what people like and do not like are personal preferences. Some people are all about bling. Some close their eyes and listen. Some need peer approval before making any decisions. Some use measurements exclusively. Whatever the reason, they are all personal belief systems. My own belief system is that if the goal of listening to music is pleasure, then listening is the final arbiter. High Performance products are in my view essential to getting the most out of the listening experience and loudspeaker design has come a tremendous way in the last twenty years, but that is the beginning of the process in building a system. The end is listening and making a choice. Fortunately, there are lots of fantastic choices out there and many of you already own them.


Best wishes,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America

 

[Patrick Butler]

If their business model is making money there is no need to do as you suggest. Even if their speakers are absolutely divine, taking that course might wreck a perfectly good money making machine.

The business model of all businesses is to make money. How they do it and what they value is an entirely different discussion.

 

[Rickster71]

To play Devil's Advocate if I may:
Along with accurate and meaningful speaker specs we'll also need to supply a chart of a recent hearing test.
http://www.earinfo.com/how-to-read-a-hearing-aid-test/
The degree of a person's hearing loss will dictate what speakers they like or dislike.
The Holy Grail of flat frequency response could go wasted on those of us that have a loss at certain frequencies. It must really get dicey, when the right and left ears have different abilities.
Then we can wonder if one's ego will even allow them to consider taking a hearing test, let alone admitting the results.

 

[Patrick Butler]

You are still advocating a policy of anything goes.

The Mahler speaker is received high praise in this thread. If it as good as Heraldo says it is, then the specs of that speaker should be superior, and it would be in your interest to show in your website detailed measurements. That would encourage the discerning to seek out the speakers for an audition.

Now I have stated many times that good loudspeakers are the sum intelligent compromise.

Making a perfect loudspeaker using cone type drivers is impossible. For one thing the drivers are spaced, if not spaced there is doppler distortion.

Now I would suggest that more honestly informing the public, would be to your benefit in the end.

Now take your new coaxial unit. You have stated the advantage of time coherence. I believe this is an advantage, especially for a center channel, were well focused speech is a high priority. I use SEAS coaxial drivers in this application myself.

However as Paul Klipsch pointed out the trade off is intermodulation distortion.

Why? Because the immediate boundary of the tweeter is moving, so the off axis tweeter response is modulated by the surrounding cone even if flat.

The current AES journal for the first time has good measured data on this, and it is very significant. The authors used a KEF Uni-Q driver and a modified vintage KEF B 139. The B 139 is a flat pistonic driver, to which the authors had added a tweeter.

The modulation of a 3 kHz tone by a 100 Hz tone was significant.

Now does this preclude the use of coaxial drivers? No, but it is another compromise to be added to the mix. In your case truth in advertising would enhance your credibility.

So far I have heard nothing from you are your company that does anything to separate you from the morass of poor and mediocre speaker manufacturers.

If you want to aspire to join the ranks of the few, then put out some good white papers on your website and expose yourself to honest peer review.

To duck it leaves one to conclude reasonable that the product is short of the PR hype.

With respect, I think you are over-simplifying my position. Solid engineering is of vital importance in delivering superior performance. However that is in and of itself no guarantee that people will actually want to live with a designer's product. As you correctly pointed out, there is always a bear in the woods and good loudspeaker design is as much an exercise in technical accumen as it is in choosing trade-offs.

You'll notice that I have spent precious little time acting like a cheerleader for Vienna Acoustics. After being in business for over 20 years I feel comfortable in saying that some people love our products and buy them. Some like them and buy something else. Others still can't stand them. I'm ok with that. The same was true with I sold Sonus faber, Klipsch, Mirage, Avalon, Wilson, Winn Laboratories etc.

Now if you want measurements, there are plenty on the internet. Stereophile is a great resource and I have the upmost respect for its editor and his goal of explaining reviewers experiences with comprehensive measurements. However, I can tell you from professional experience that you can give the same loudspeaker to two different, incredibly competent and professional technicians to measure and get very different results. Which one is correct? Which do you believe?

I think it is tragic when people rely on the notion of accuracy to determine what they should purchase. I have seen way too many people listen to the PR of companies, reviewers and salespeople, choose incredible products from column a, b, c, and d and end up with a system that they can't stand and brings them no joy. I'd rather they listen and discover what actually makes them happy and buy that product. If it happens to be my product, then I am grateful for the business.

Best wishes,


Patrick

 

[Patrick Butler]

Absolutely. I'll be the first to admit that I cannot hear a damn thing above 17k.

 

[TjMV3]

I think the entire notion of an accurate loudspeaker is a fallacy if your goal is to enjoy listening to music.
Good Listening,

Patrick Butler

It most certainly is.

People should buy whatever their ears and their brains enjoy the most and what suits their personal preferences and tastes.

Screw what everyone else thinks, , what other people like or what other people try to bully people into seeing it their way.

Ultimately, these "accuracy" guys have become every bit as rabid and arrogant as the older "Warm, Musical and Toasty" Audiophiles they themselves (The Accuracy Guys) resent and disdain so much.

It's almost comical how they have transformed themselves into everything they hated and disliked.

Trying to bully people into liking the same speakers and designs you like, is ridiculous.

 

[haraldo]

It most certainly is.

People should buy whatever their ears and their brains enjoy the most and what suits their personal preferences and tastes.

Screw what everyone else thinks, , what other people like or what other people try to bully people into seeing it their way.

Ultimately, these "accuracy" guys have become every bit as rabid and arrogant as the older "Warm, Musical and Toasty" Audiophiles they themselves (The Accuracy Guys) resent and disdain so much.

It's almost comical how they have transformed themselves into everything they hated and disliked.

Trying to bully people into liking the same speakers and designs you like, is ridiculous.

YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

This is what it's about, sit down and enjoy the music

 

[haraldo]

I used to own the VA Beethoven - read my review (signature) for more info.
The quality is stellar - everything from cabinetry to drivers and internal wiring.
Never listened to the Music speaker though (loved the Mahler) ...

So you had Beethoven Baby Grand + REL R 505 sub.....
Quite interesting combo..... couldn't find your review, would be interesting to read your thoughts about this

 

[Kitsum]

Loudspeaker design is both science (facts) and art (preference). Maybe the only component that both camps can be right. If you never attend live acoustic performances and you don't have a perfect room, some specialized voicing (coloration) might be desirable, depending on type of music.

 

[KEW]

Trying to bully people into liking the same speakers and designs you like, is ridiculous.

What?

I just re-read the entire thread.

Several people (specifically, 4) have stated they like VA speakers, only one has stated that they have heard VA speakers they did not like. I did not notice where anyone has been criticized or bullied.

Please show me where anyone in this thread is attempting to bully others into liking any specific type of speakers!

I double-dawg dare you! (does that count for bullying?)

TIA!

 

[GranteedEV]

1. There is no accurate loudspeaker. Every transducer screws up the original waveform, some worse than others. Sound engineering principals are of vital importance when designing loudspeakers, but all design choices have consequences that result in different sounding designs, whether they be studio monitors from Meyer, Genelec, Tannoy, Westlake, or consumer products like YG, Magico, PSB or Vienna Acoustics. When somebody chooses a boring Studio Monitor, what they are really choosing is a boring monitor, but not an accurate one.

Patrick, I don't disagree that there is no perfectly accurate speaker. But you're out of your mind if you think a $13000 studio monitor like the Focal SM11 is not doing a better job at what a speaker is designed to do (which is reproduce a recording) than a $200 Sony. THe reality is that the Focal monitor can go out and make this exact claim:

34Hz - 40kHz (+/-2dB)

and the sony speaker's specs

Enclosure Type : Bass Reflex
Mid-Range Unit : 65mm Cone
Model Name : SS-SRP37F
Rated Impedance : 3 Ohms
Speaker System : Bass Reflex
Type : Tall Boys

All they can tell me is that it's a tall boy? A tall boy doesn't sound like an orchestra or female vocalist to me. I guess it's probably good with tall rappers, alrhough some of my favorite rappers are shorter and older than that. It's not even worth my time to listen to this speaker, even if it's a well engineered speaker.

I have a suspension of disbelief that the Tall Boys can make me feel like I'm right there, if that's all they can claim about themselves. Simple as that. An accurate speaker to me is something transparent enough that it won't impart enough of its signature on what I'm hearing, that what I'm hearing is the speaker and not the music (or movie).

I really think you've mistaken my posts as suggesting that Vienna Acoustics makes inaccurate speakers compared to what I'm accustomed to simply because of measurements.

I've never heard a Veinna Acoustics speaker. All I know is that there's a LOT of esoteric gear out there which intentionally colors sound extremely, masking the highes or the lows, and there's consumerist gear which hides the mids. I only have one way of "weeding out the total garbage" and that's to look at a specification. Listening is indeed important to help make a final judgement, but I only consider listening to be worth my time if i'm not listening to a 350,000 dollar amp which is -20 db at 10khz as we noticed in another thread. I could listen to that amp and be impressed, but I'd be most obviously missing information - which is what I don't want.

I don't use measurements to make my decisions for me, but I use them first and foremost regardless.

Taking one of my earlier posts as an example, several bloggers who attended RMAF heard a live piano and did not like the sound of the "reference" and much preferred the sound of a recorded piano played through their stereo. In short, they preferred the sound of their system's coloration over a live event. Happens every day.

And they're free to hide from the "truth". Personally, I want a speaker that can be close enough that I couldn't tell the difference. Great measurements help me isolate speakers worth auditioning.

4. Your playback system. The current state of affairs is that there is no system which allows you to hear what the mastering engineer heard (which is THE reference) unless you are that mastering engineer. Every other system screws up the recording in one way or another. Which versions of screwed up we pick is personal preference, or to use TLS Guy's line "vile evil."

Again, it's not a matter of perfection, as I never stated it was. It's a matter of striving for it. Companies like Bose on the low end, and ones I've never heard of on the high end, are completely as content striving away from, as others are towards, realistic reproduction. The original issue that's being discussed here is that your website does not give us a clear indication of where you lie on the spectrum. There's no accurate speaker, that we can agree on. However there's speakers that sound very close to the real thing, and others that sound completely different from the real thing. An unexperienced listener is more likely to gravitate towards the latter.

5. Because there is no accurate loudspeaker, the things that guide what people like and do not like are personal preferences. Some people are all about bling. Some close their eyes and listen. Some need peer approval before making any decisions. Some use measurements exclusively. Whatever the reason, they are all personal belief systems.

Fine. And my personal belief system has decided that because Vienna Acoustics does not give sufficient measurements, then they are not worth an audition. See the problem here? My personal beliefs may be holding me back from one of the most enjoyable speaker systems I've ever heard. And to think that could easily be rectified with a frequency response / off axis graph and some impedance curve graphs?

In all honesty I doubt there's even a Vienna Acoustics reseller near me. As such, listening isn't even an option. With some posted specs however, i'd be much more alert to the brand's design goals. Design Goals. Design Goals. Design Goals. Design Goals. Design Goals. Design Goals.Design Goals.Design Goals.

And that alertness, if suggesting Design Goals of "string towards" accuracy - could mean that next time I'm in Chicago, Seattle, or Vienna, I would actively go and find the speaker brand.

It's not just speakers though. When I'm buying anything intended to reproduce, I look at measurements. A measurement makes my choice of TV a lot easier, as one TV may not have as much of a red push on flesh tones or a cyan hue on grass. SUre, people are free to buy TVs based on what impresses them there, but I'd rather have an ISF calibration done on a TV measured to be very close to NTSC standards. Crazy huh?

I'd rather watch a Blu Ray than a VHS!
I'd rather get 95% on my tests at school than 35%... it means I know what I'm doing in reproducing the information I'm given.
I'd rather read the unabridged version of a 3000 page book!
I'd rather read the facts than the tabloids - even if i know that the tabloids are both more sensational and that newspapers themselves hold bias.

I accept there's no absolute accuracy but I still want to get as close to that as possible. And I dislike the idea that I'm doing something wrong. Call it me being obsessive compulsive. But I want those measurements.

 

[dkane360]

What?

I just re-read the entire thread.

Several people (specifically, 4) have stated they like VA speakers, only one has stated that they have heard VA speakers they did not like. I did not notice where anyone has been criticized or bullied.

Please show me where anyone in this thread is attempting to bully others into liking any specific type of speakers!

I double-dawg dare you! (does that count for bullying?)

TIA!

I assumed he was speaking about the forum in general, and not pointing fingers at one person in particular. I think it is inevitable that some personal bias gets into conversations online, or anywhere for that matter. It's just part of human nature for you to want others to like what you like.

 

[KEW]

I assumed he was speaking about the forum in general, and not pointing fingers at one person in particular.

I did not think his comments were directed at me in particular, but I did believe they were directed at everyone who is arguing for VA to provide useful data on their speakers (which does include me).
Otherwise, it seems like a pretty random post (NTTAWWT).

 

[GranteedEV]

Oh, and here's a reason why I'm such a skeptic

Here's what the website for a certain speaker says about it:

The ---------- is often called the world's best two way book shelf loudspeaker. Like the -|--, it is carved from solid marble. The --- starts out as a 850 pound piece of rock and after one day, it is transformed into a unique "work of art" that is designed to last a lifetime.

Specifications

Long: 19 inches, Tall: 14 inches

Response - 3 dB at 33Hz
Tweeter - Scanspeak Revelator 9900
Woofer - Scanspeak Revelator 15W/8530-K00

The --------- begins to roll off at 35 Hz and its 10 dB downpoint is 29 Hz

Availability: Pairs in marble and synthetic marble, with real leather baffle.

Colors: Black, or white in Marble. For synthetic marble, go here.

Read about Mini -------------- here.

Characteristics

The best two way speaker we make
Precision music reproduction
"Highest-end" speakers at this price range
Marble cabinets will last forever
Only two-way speaker in the world that can achieve -3 dB at 33 Hz

Applications

Excellent for accurate and detailed music reproduction
The best for complementing our amplifier products
For building systems that otherwise would have cost over $10,000
Great looking marble speakers adds sophistication to your decor.

Sounds great right? Who needs real specs, let's just go take a listen, right?

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=marble.html

Please, tell me you're still interested in taking a listen! Who knows if you even notice that problem, right? Who even cares, right?

 

[haraldo]

Oh, and here's a reason why I'm such a skeptic

Here's what the website for a certain speaker says about it:



Sounds great right? Who needs real specs, let's just go take a listen, right?

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=marble.html

Please, tell me you're still interested in taking a listen! Who knows if you even notice that problem, right? Who even cares, right?

Well I bought a set of speakers where the ad stated something like this, not because of this but in spite of this, it's the Duntech PCL-15's designed by Mr John Dunlavy.... after 17 years I still cannot find any colorations in these speakers....

Well, they have no bass and cannot play loud at all.........

I didn't buy them because they have perfect measurements, but because they play music better than most speakers around at any price....

The measurments of these speakers are as close to perfect as it can get, it's not why I bought them.... They have perfect flat response, close to textbook impulse response... +/- 5 degrees sth deviation in phase

Problem is that ad's like this does not make the speakers bad, but it doesn't necessarily make them good.... so where do we go from here..... ad's like that doesn't make speakers worse....

 

[GranteedEV]

Problem is that ad's like this does not make the speakers bad, but it doesn't necessarily make them good.... so where do we go from here..... ad's like that doesn't make speakers worse....

Well I'm suggesting that when an ad doesn't tell me much, it pretty much means that it's not worth my time. There's 1000s of speaker companies out there - i'd prefer to listen to the ones made by those who show me their product's credibility.