Looking to build an upgrade

Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
So I have some speakers for computer audio but they are cheap. I have two Fishers (80W, 5" drivers and 1.5" tweets) and one Onkyo (125W, 8" woofer).

I want to build a pair of cabinets, I want each one to have the following: two mid drivers, two tweets, and one sub.

Suggestions? I really have no idea how to go about this. Budget is $100 for drivers (for both speakers combined), I think I have everything else I need for this project.

So,

Which drivers are the best for my price range? Is this build even possible for $100? I was looking at some of the posts on these forums, and I was like holy crap this stuff is expensive.

How do I build the cabinets? How do I construct the insides (air passages, separation between sections, air vents)?

How do I connect everything?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Um... based on your questions.. have you ever designed and assembled an crossover before? What do you plan to use to power these things? This is for a computer setup, right?

My advice if DIY for the first time is to keep it simple. Very simple. Like this simple....in fact, i wouldn't consider going much more complex than this if i'd never read up much on crossovers - It's a matter of hands-on experience and understanding of theory. I think the first link I posted will give you quality sound compared to what you're coming from, without the potential for you to mess up. YOu can pair that with any decent (but not overpowered please!) integrated amp and then worry about the subwoofer.... especially with the filter he implemented, that single driver should sound far better than what you've got. You'll probably need an amp though... which is where things get tricky.


For a computer sub, I like this. I think this would be more than enough power.
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Hmm.. this or this should give you plenty of power for nearfield use.

Or you could pick up a pair, design an active crossover, and bi-amp a tweeter/woofer combo... you could maybe even bypass the need for designing an analog crossover... if you're interested.. you could try one of these with the right plugin to get you started.
 
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Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Um... based on your questions.. have you ever designed and assembled an crossover before? What do you plan to use to power these things? This is for a computer setup, right?
- No, but I would like to learn how to, it's not like I have a deadline for building these speakers. Have any good guides?

- I have a car amp that I use to power my current speakers (Kicker brand, model number IX252. I know that it isn't totally powerful, but it's powerful enough to play music pretty loudly). What are my other amp options? Can I get an inexpensive all in one amp with the same sound quality as my current setup?

- Yes.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
- No, but I would like to learn how to, it's not like I have a deadline for building these speakers. Have any good guides
Well, for hands on experience, I recommend doing the two zaph designs I linked earlier, in consecutive order. The advantage of most zaph designs is how budget concious yet high performance they are. You might find other simple 2-ways out there, but they likely won't give you the same bang-for-buck.

The 3" full range will be very important as it can give you a foundation - woodworking skills, assembly, wiring, working with circuit board on the filter, and it'll be neutral. It's also dirt cheap - you could probably make a pair for less than 50 bucks for all materials. And it'll tide you over until you attempt another speaker because it'll sound better than what you've got. Don't be reluctant just because it's a single full range driver - they have their drawbacks, sure, but so does everything.

Then the small Zaph mini-monitor should let you learn a bit more about the real "crossover" concept. The KISS Principle applies! His documentation is very helpful in this regard! Further, it'll allow you to compare two small, cheap speaker designs that are fairly different. This alone should probably be exactly what you're looking for.

if however, you're interested in taking it to the next level.. at the same time, start to read up on books about speaker building theory in general.

Stuff written by guys like

Floyd E Toole
Earl Geddes
Ray Alden
Wayne Jasch
Joseph A. D'Appolito
David M. Howard / James Angus

Not all of them necessarily are going to be "right" for you, but at least some are. Don't like to read? Quit here! Once you've done all this, try your hand at assembling someone else's more complex crossover design and fully understanding the "why" as well as the "how".

A couple great designers with plans to follow include Seigfried Linkwitz, John Krutke, John Kreshovsky, Lou Corragio, Dennis Murphy, Roman J Bednarek, As I said before, i suggest any 3-way or otherwise complex crossover to at least be after you've done a simple one.

Additionally, at this point you should start getting some speaker building tools (a quality router, WT3 woofer tester, SPL Meter), some modeling/simulation programs (I'm not saying you need to drop 1200 on a copy of LSPcad Pro or anything...i can't even figure out the demo for that program mind you!, but stuff like Unibox, winISD at least along with other programs like hornresp, martin j king's mathcad sheets, and akabak)

Once you can look at a complex crossover design you've assembled and manage to explain exactly the function of everything, THEN you can probably grab a pair of drivers and try your hand at a 2-way design (Maybe a d'appolito MTM). Chances are you'll still mess it up compared to a skilled designer but keep tweaking until it sounds right. Digital crossovers may help you in the desiging process, especially if you go the active route. Of course, getting advice as you go along on forums like here, partsexpress, madisound, avs, and diyaudio will definitely help too!

Stay away from pre-assembled crossovers every point of the

After you've designed and built your first 2-way speaker successfully, you'll probably end up attemping a 3-way design and either fail badly or fail gracefully... so good luck!

- I have a car amp that I use to power my current speakers (Kicker brand, model number IX252. I know that it isn't totally powerful, but it's powerful enough to play music pretty loudly). What are my other amp options? Can I get an inexpensive all in one amp with the same sound quality as my current setup?
It's not all about power especially if you're sitting right in front of it. I really do question using a car amp inside though - aren't thier power supplies made for DC? And I doubt they're designed for hi fidelity. I can't comment further on it but I suggest looking at something else if you're serious about this.

The gizmo amp i posted seems like a much better bet as it's actually made for home theater. A single one of those will drive any speaker to listenable near field levels... and it's inexpensive. 25 x 2 wpc might not cut it for a large room / home theater but it should be plenty for this purpose.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
To get started in learning about speakers, buy or borrow a copy of Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden.

A simple inexpensive kit, the BR-1, sold by Parts Express, comes with a manual that is a great primer text on DIY speaker designing and building. It's a good read and it's free.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Alright, I had no idea how complicated this was going to be. I read up on crossovers and why you need them, and now I think I understand more about how I would go about building a pair of 3-way speakers.

I am definitely NOT going to build my own crossover, I think I'll look into them some more before making any decisions regarding driver purchases.

More questions before I retreat from the forums to study speaker crossovers:

What's up with acoustic stuffing? What are the pros/cons? Also, what are the pros/cons of ported vs. sealed cabinets?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I am definitely NOT going to build my own crossover, I think I'll look into them some more before making any decisions regarding driver purchases.
Just don't buy ready-made crossovers! If you don't yet feel confident even in making the 3" fullrange I recommended (which shouldn't be too hard, really) then I suggest going digital-active on the crossovers. This will require an amp channel for every driver, as I suggested in my earlier post, but is a much more ideal solution.

What's up with acoustic stuffing? What are the pros/cons?
Acoustic stuffing is necessary in a box type of speaker design because sound vibrate around on the inside. This can have a few effects

1) Resonance - Sound pressure can cause the speaker cabinet to vibrate, which in turn creates a sound of its own, and affects the sound of the speaker at certain frequencies.
2) Ringing - Internal sound pressure can be reflected back onto a driver cone. It's hard to describe but basically imagine a reflected sound wave causing the driver cone to move when it's not supposed to - as a passive radiator instead of an active, controlled radiator.

Also, what are the pros/cons of ported vs. sealed cabinets?
Good question... to which i answer "tough to generalize". The basic gist of it is that a port give low frequency extension to a speaker, but a sealed speaker is simpler and is more likely to sound better in terms of transient response - but not "neccessarily". Enclosure size is a big contributor to aformentioned ringing, and ports can have their own complications too.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Alright, I had no idea how complicated this was going to be. I read up on crossovers and why you need them, and now I think I understand more about how I would go about building a pair of 3-way speakers.

I am definitely NOT going to build my own crossover, I think I'll look into them some more before making any decisions regarding driver purchases.
Just don't buy ready-made crossovers!
What he said!!!

What's up with acoustic stuffing? What are the pros/cons? Also, what are the pros/cons of ported vs. sealed cabinets?
Read the first three chapters in Speaker Building 201. It will explain all of that.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Just don't buy ready-made crossovers! If you don't yet feel confident even in making the 3" fullrange I recommended (which shouldn't be too hard, really) then I suggest going digital-active on the crossovers. This will require an amp channel for every driver, as I suggested in my earlier post, but is a much more ideal solution.
An amp channel on every driver sounds expensive, and the digital crossover posted earlier in this thread just seemed excessive for my needs. I'm NOT an audiophile by any standard, I just want deep bass and good highs. What would be bad about a pre-configured crossover?
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Continuation of my last post, I couldn't post links until I had a post count of 5 or greater.


Something like this looks like it could be good.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The main reason why DIY speaker building works well is because crossovers must be custom designed for any given set of woofers and tweeters when mounted in an appropriately designed box. Off-the-shelf crossovers do exist, but their one-size-fits-all approach does a very poor job. You will be wasting your time and cash.

If you don't want to learn all that it takes to properly design your own, there are many good DIY designs and kits available on the net. They are proven designs made by people who understand the process and are experienced at doing it. They will sound much better than anything you can buy for the same price retail.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm not trying to abuse you as an ignorant newbie, but your mistake is very common among people new to DIY speaker building. I really would like to encourage you in this, but please forget the idea that there are easy short cuts to crossovers.

If you are interested in some expamples of good websites for DIY speaker designs, read this previous post.

Parts Express and Madisound also sell good kits.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Thanks for providing a reason why I shouldn't get a one-size-fits-all crossover. Please remember that I am a total newbie to speakers; my main category of study is computers, not speakers.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-700

This looks promising, although I think I would like to add one more pair of larger speakers to the equation. Could I do this while staying with a 2-way crossover? I was thinking of maybe adding a 6-inch woofer per cabinet on the mid/low channel, but how do I get some lower sound out of it?

I forgot to add, I won't be putting this all together until later this month or possibly even next month, as I am in a woodworking class and after we finish our main project (a stool, lol) we get to build our own personal project. I decided on a pair of tall skinny style speaker cabinets.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Just randomly choosing a crossover is an awful idea. If you really, really don't want to dabble in crossover assembly, then you must build a cabinet exactly to specification, and get a kit.

There is no such thing as a "one size fits all crossover" - I don't think you comprehend what a crossover does actually. Let me open up whatever the ubuntu equivalent of paint is and show you just how bad your results could be.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
Alright, I get what you are saying, and I think I completely understand the purpose of crossovers now.

What I want to do is get this kit and build the cabinet to exact specifications of this. What I want to know is, is there extra room to add a larger woofer? How would I go about doing this?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Alright, I get what you are saying, and I think I completely understand the purpose of crossovers now.

What I want to do is get this kit and build the cabinet to exact specifications of this. What I want to know is, is there extra room to add a larger woofer? How would I go about doing this?
No there is not. You can not mix speakers in the same space as they have different Thiel/Small parameters. Just stick to the kit and you will be fine. You don't need big woofers these days except in subs.
 
Speculant

Speculant

Audioholic
No there is not. You can not mix speakers in the same space as they have different Thiel/Small parameters. Just stick to the kit and you will be fine. You don't need big woofers these days except in subs.
Ok, thanks for the info.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
For an inexpensive well designed system for nearfield use of minimal cost you may want to check this kit out. It has received great reviews and will run you less that $125.00.

As most have noted already designing a competent speaker is not an easy task, especially if it is your first time out. A kit helps to get your feet wet and you will end up with a product that you can live with and sounds good.

In the meantime, start educating yourself with the basics. There are plenty of good books out there if you search.
 

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