green mountain.

[bocat57]

My Two Cents

Hi All

Please allow me to share my story how I came to find out about green mountain. I went over to audition a used cd player at someone's house who had advertised on the net. As I was listening to the player in this totally high end stereo, The component that impressed me most were the speakers. When I asked what kind they were I was informed they were in fact the green mountain europa. Now even though I had just bought new speakers that cost $3.500.00 4 months prior I knew I had to have the green mountain. The person who owned the europa explained to me that the europa's were discontinued but were replaced and improved on by the rio's. The rest as they say is history.

The speakers I wanted to replace with the rio's are a well known high end brand that I will not name as my intention here is not to bad mouth this speaker company. I will say this the rio's completely blew the speakers I had away in every respect. It really was the night and day that we hear about in this hobby but very seldom actually hear.

I put my 4 month old speakers up for sale on ebay and took a bath but I never have regretted it because I know I have some special speakers that are a cut above anything else thats out there and like I stated in my earlier post I am talking about the entry level green mountain. I can just imagine what the other green mountain speakers sound like.

To all involved in this thread and anybody else for that matter to get some insight on the green mountain designer and company founder and his speakers you can of course go to the green mountain web site and go to the six moons web site look for industry features and then Roy Johnson. ( I was not allowed to post links as I did not have enough posts)


Thank You
Bob
New York

 

[RoyJ]

Hello, Kurt

Our Owners are only in loose contact, and I thank them for their enthusiastic support! I thought about sending each some $$.

I was alerted this time, by several Owners asking if I should address those first concerns of Jerry, especially since he is in an administrative role (nice title, Jerry!). It's not uncommon for me to be alerted-- I add what I can... then it's back to work. Also, GMA searches have increased since the recent RMAF show in Denver, so this thread would have popped up for many.


I would note each respondent gave you a decent indication of how many years have been spent listening and trying out gear, and playing and recording too, which is about all one can offer to a forum-- heck, it's all we can do since reviews are too often of little help.

No one mentioned equipment sensitivity, room-placement issues, tone balance, dispersion/sweet-spot, or the music preferred for our speakers. This has always been the case. To me, the lack of all those 'issues' with our speakers has always been THE correlation between end-users' subjective experiences and my objective design methods. Those I explain as much as possible in each speaker's "Design Concept" article, on our website.

For me, most every 'issue' about speaker design, about a speaker's interaction with a room and the gear is explainable in terms any audio magazine could have published in the past. So, since I did not want to play the magazine author-of-the-month game, I tried to cover via our website the many fundamental topics that have been known for decades about speaker design, and relate those to what can be measured and what can be heard, as much as I dare give away.

Several years ago, Six Moons asked me to discuss the problems with speaker measurements. The link to that is on their Industry Features page (and for some reason I don't see on our website!!). Some of the graphs did not quite line up with their paragraphs, so I'd be happy to clear up any confusion.


I look forward to the time I can properly contribute to a busy forum on our own website, one that addresses all sorts of topics through the participation of other designers! Anyway, I can dream and that's something I'd like to make happen. But the thin line between a designer educating and just giving his particular science away would always remain.


Jerry and Swerd have kindly asked some pointed questions specific to 'this type' of speaker design, and I look forward to making time asap to present the rational and factual answers their good questions deserve! Thanks for the opportunity. It's much appreciated and I hope beneficial and educational.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio

 

[GranteedEV]

I'd love to hear these speakers hooked up to a PS3, marantz processor, emotiva amp, and blue jeans cables. It seems the demographic for them is a bit more..uh..how you say.. "traditional".

Roy, welcome and send me a free pair of tower speakers just kidding.

I do think you're somewhat creating skepticism when you talk about things like high end cables changing the sound of the speakers. In some circles that may be taken without a second thought, but that really un-nerves some of us over here, myself at least. Do you beleive in level matched double blind testing?

I don't want to get into a cable discussion here; you may make some of the best speakers in the world, and thus you certainly have every right to use whichever wire or crossover component you desire for esoteric aesthetic reasons, but to justify some of these things on the basis of unmeasurable performance - what exactly separates that from the entire concept of snake oil besides your word?

I'm not all about objectivity. In speaker design everything is a tradeoff, so I believe no speaker will win every objective or every subjective category. I just like the truth. If Jim Salk can say that the high end cables he advertised were for the demographic, that's perfectly understandable. I support keeping business strong. I just don't support something which time and time again remains unprovable in double blind testing.

 

[Matt34]

Hello, Kurt

Our Owners are only in loose contact, and I thank them for their enthusiastic support! I thought about sending each some $$.

I was alerted this time, by several Owners asking if I should address those first concerns of Jerry, especially since he is in an administrative role (nice title, Jerry!).

Welcome to AH, just a FYI but the only admins here are Gene and Clint Deboer.

 

[JerryLove]

Seconded. I am neither an admin nor a moderator, just an avid poster. I can understand how the titles here (I think i am an "audioholic general") might confuse those unfamilar.

 

[clouso]

WOW...i read all the posts here and im kinda worried!...isnt the best way to buy speakers just like it is bying an hdtv to get to hear it or see it for your self?....if you cant hear it dont buy it!!...ok i auditioned some pioneer elite speakers at 7000$ a pair and then some focals cant remember the series but a hi end one's...i liked the pioneer better then the focal but then i got in the paradigm room and got to listen to the studio 60v5 center channel cc-590 and sub12...and i said to the guy...''what that sub ...a pair of 60v5's and center channel 590 would cost me the same price then the pioneer elite speakers?''...he said ...YES....and btw the studio's sounded as good or even better then the elite at 7000$ the studio's at 2400$ a pair.. clarity bass extension and imaging included the only thing the pioneer did better was the projection....i have an ear having played bass guitar in a band for 12 years and i assure you the studio 60's sounded better then the 7000$ pioneer elite....some dont like paradigm here cause they are a canadian brand but i wonder why they set the standard for over 25 years?..im not a paradigm worker or anything but im just telling....if you wanna pay 7000$ for a pair of speakers that will compete with some 15000$ speakers or even 20000$ why dont you auditioned the paradigm's signature S8...

 

[JerryLove]

There are two overlapping camps on the best way to choose speakers. One is buy measuerement an the other is by audition in your planned listening environment.

Regarding Green Mountain (and this is a discussion of green mountain, not pioneer, not Paradigm), i have not found a way to audition wihout first buying, and the measurements are generally unavailable. Therefore i am using less preferred means, such as discussions with the designer and a quest for impartial reviews, to determine if i should invest money in checking out this line of hardware.

And fyi: I have owned or currently own studio 40's, studio 60's and signature s2's.

 

[clouso]

There are two overlapping camps on the best way to choose sppakers. One is buy measuerement an the tithed is by audition in your planned listening environment.

Regarding Green Mountain (and this is a discussion of green mountain, not pioneer, not Paradigm), i have not found a way to audition wihout first buying, and the measurements are generally unavailable. Therefore i am using less preferred means, such as discussions with the designer and a quest for impartial reviews, to determine if i should invest money in checking out this line of hardware.

And fyi: I have or currently own studio 40's, studio 60's and signature s2's.

OK so sorry if i disturbed you in your conversation with the engeneer...i was wrong in all i said i guess...

 

[GranteedEV]

They are beautiful. I love the look. I think your experience with them is correct. I think they can sound better than they do right now in my room. I do, in fact, believe that the amplifier is the weak link.

I don't have the funds to run out and plop down $3k+ on a proper amp right this moment to find out. I've heard too much that was too positive to believe that my problem with the 801 is "not good enough speaker". I do really believe the problem is with the amp.

I have a problem with a narrow portion of the sound from those speakers. I have not had the skill to correct it. Given that I own a pair of unmodified P360s, and they do not share the same problem, I believe it issue is one of calibration. I would love for someone with a more trained ear to give a listen.

I may have a solution coming down the pike in a couple of weeks. If I can resolve it, I will actually write up and post a review of the Chris speakers.

Other than that problem (which sadly affects vocals), the sound is truely impressive on the Chris-modified speakers. Until it is fixed, and until I've properlly amp'd the N801s, I cannot compare the two.

I would really like to hear your impressions of the GM's when you hear them.

That said: I certainly invite an audioholic that wants to bring an amp to stop by. I've got several, but nothing that really hits the desired power-rating to test the N801's. If I manage to come up with $2k, I might try a pair of the XPA-1's.

Build a pair of ucd2k monoblocks!!!

 

[GranteedEV]

Is there a downside to using speakers that sound different than what the audience will have?
How does any engineer know what speakers his audience will listen through?
As an artist, I can only hope the listener chooses playback equipment that allows the emotional message of the music to come through. My experience is that the GMA allows me to much more easily hear mic choices, mic positioning, eq, compression, gates, cables, pre-amps, etc much better than any other speaker I have used. Is there a downside to making proper engineering choices? I cannot think of one. You?

I most certainly agree, as long as the speaker has a measurable ruler flat frequency, it's ideal for studio work. If the audience is listening through colored speakers, that's their loss.

 

[clouso]

There are two overlapping camps on the best way to choose speakers. One is buy measuerement an the other is by audition in your planned listening environment.

Regarding Green Mountain (and this is a discussion of green mountain, not pioneer, not Paradigm), i have not found a way to audition wihout first buying, and the measurements are generally unavailable. Therefore i am using less preferred means, such as discussions with the designer and a quest for impartial reviews, to determine if i should invest money in checking out this line of hardware.

And fyi: I have owned or currently own studio 40's, studio 60's and signature s2's.

Btw Jerry i understand you need measurments but when you need to trust your ears what happens??..you will remind your self..oh but yes those had a better measurments!.. and when you buy a tv if you dont see it you will only trust reviews and measurments??......i also trust reviews and measurments but in a certain ammount of %...you must trust your ears and eyes too..good luck with you next purchase!...

 

[JerryLove]

I most certainly agree, as long as the speaker has a measurable ruler flat frequency, it's ideal for studio work. If the audience is listening through colored speakers, that's their loss.

True, they loose the quality and, more often, just don't buy at all because it" sounds bad". All the artist looses is money and an audience for his art.

Of course, this depends on the presumed majority of the potential audience. Clasical listeners, or those using vinyl in the modern day are generally geared toward relatively flat recordings.

But I fear this tangent is likely a dead end.

 

[Matt34]

Btw Jerry i understand you need measurments but when you need to trust your ears what happens??..you will remind your self..oh but yes those had a better measurments!.. and when you buy a tv if you dont see it you will only trust reviews and measurments??......i also trust reviews and measurments but in a certain ammount of %...you must trust your ears and eyes too..good luck with you next purchase!...

I think what Jerry is referring to is the fact he is unable to addition some speakers, i.e the Green Mountains and rather than go off the subjective opinions of others (we do all have different tastes now don't we?), he would like to see some universally accepted measurements that can give a pretty good picture of speaker performance.

 

[GranteedEV]

True, they loose the quality and, more often, just don't buy at all because it" sounds bad". All the artist looses is money and an audience for his art.

They lose the quality, but how exactly does something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker sound any better than something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker?

If anything, the latter would have cascaded bad-ness!

FOr example I wouldn't mix bass on a boom and sizzle speaker... even if it's meant to be played back on a boom and sizzle speaker. ALl that would do is defeat the purpose of a boom and sizzle speaker to someone wants that boom and sizszle!

 

[JerryLove]

Btw Jerry i understand you need measurments but when you need to trust your ears what happens??..you will remind your self..oh but yes those had a better measurments!.. and when you buy a tv if you dont see it you will only trust reviews and measurments??......i also trust reviews and measurments but in a certain ammount of %...you must trust your ears and eyes too..good luck with you next purchase!...

I don't think i know what you are getting at or, if I do, it doesn't seem to have much to do with my quandry.

I would love to audition gma gear in my home listening environment. Are you offering to loan me some? No? Ok. Then I am interested in measurements, descriptions from the designer, and trusted reviews from other ears.

 

[highfigh]

I most certainly agree, as long as the speaker has a measurable ruler flat frequency, it's ideal for studio work. If the audience is listening through colored speakers, that's their loss.

But these questions need to be asked:

Is that response flat in an "average" room with average acoustics or in an anechoic room?

How is the speaker placed in that room and is it practical to expect others to place it the same way, in order to achieve the same response?

Since not all music was mastered with the same speakers/with the same equipment/in the same kind of room, how would you expect to be able to hear the music the same as the engineer(s) did when they mixed and mastered it?

As much as it would be preferred to have "ruler-flat" frequency response, it's A) not possible, B) the response will change when ANYTHING in the room is moved/more people come in or leave and C) that can only be used as a reference when that's the goal.

Music isn't "ruler-flat", our hearing isn't "ruler-flat" and our rooms aren't "ruler-flat". Objective testing is the ultimate determining factor in whether we like the sound of the system- what's the point if the specs are great and it sounds like crap? Also, especially with speakers, the way they interact with the room makes a huge difference and a speaker that has great response in a small room will not sound good in a large room and vise-versa. Set a speaker up so it's facing the end wall and it will sound different from when it's facing the side wall, too.

As far as "ideal for studio work", the Yamaha NS-10 is almost ubiquitous but it's not because it sounds great or extremely pleasing to the ear. The people who use them in studios say that they use them because they reveal faults in the sound. The comment I saw most was "If it sounds good with the NS-10s, it will sound good on anything".

 

[highfigh]

They lose the quality, but how exactly does something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker sound any better than something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker?

If anything, the latter would have cascaded bad-ness!

FOr example I wouldn't mix bass on a boom and sizzle speaker... even if it's meant to be played back on a boom and sizzle speaker. ALl that would do is defeat the purpose of a boom and sizzle speaker!

OK, but what's the point of mixing for "the best speakers in the world" if only a few people have them? Ask any studio engineer and they'll tell you that they use several different speakers to find the right mix. Many have dumped a copy and taken it to someone's car to listen because so many use their car as the main place where they listen to music, good or bad.

If music is mixed for a particular range of quality in speakers, it's more likely that more people will think it sounds good. Not necessarily "perfect", but what music is universally considered to sound perfect?

Besides, our ears/mind eventually ignore some sonic details that would make us not like the speakers if we were doing a direct comparison.

 

[JerryLove]

They lose the quality, but how exactly does something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker sound any better than something mixed for a bad speaker played back on a bad speaker?

Much the same as how a crossover or eq colors sound to adjust for the colorqtion of the driver or the room.

Much like how" midnight mode" adjusts for low volume listening (it also improves the ability to understand speech on very poor gear).

If you know, for example, that your audience's gear reproduces 35hz waves in mono (because, like most people he uses a single sub or paired mono sub rather than stereo subs or full-range speakers), then you would know not to allow a left and right 35hz note to occur 180degrees out-of-phasse because it will cancell in the conversion to mono.

Is that a specific enough example of the dangers of not mixing with inferior equipment in mind?

 

[clouso]

I think what Jerry is referring to is the fact he is unable to addition some speakers, i.e the Green Mountains and rather than go off the subjective opinions of others (we do all have different tastes now don't we?), he would like to see some universally accepted measurements that can give a pretty good picture of speaker performance.

anyways..Jerry go on stereophile.com..you will have some measurments there but they dont even indicates what speakers!..goog luck again...

 

[GranteedEV]

If music is mixed for a particular range of quality in speakers, it's more likely that more people will think it sounds good. Not necessarily "perfect", but what music is universally considered to sound perfect?

I agree that music should mixed for a particular range of music. Find the average - IE neutrality. Something mixed on a neutral / flat speaker won't too dead on a warm speaker, it won't sound too energetic on a bright speaker.

Mixing on multiple speakers that cover a wide range of sounds is correct, I don't think I said it shouldn't be done. In fact I think it helps reveal details in certain frequency ranges that may otherwise be less significant / noticed on the so-called perfect speaker. It's most certainly the right way to go. But I still think that for knowing how a mix is supposed to sound, you should use a flat FR speaker, and work your way out from there.

Mixing on one excellent speaker that is otherwised colored (IE not ruler flat) is what I disagree with. Lo-fi speakers and car speakers have all kinds of assortments of awful sound quality, brutal sound signatures, and yet generally people think music sounds "perfectly fine"on them. It's not because music is mixed for lo fi, but because people don't really have high expectations. Most people these days are perfectly fine listening to things recorded on a computer microphone and uploaded to youtube...the only people picky enough about "how" it sounds are the people who get equipment to make it sound better. Otherwise as long as the loudness is compressed, the beat is a constant 90 hz one note tone and the girl singing it catchy and has a catchy line, it's a hit.

Hell, I know people who have sat down in my car and their first action is to set treble and bass to max, whereas i generally don't touch my EQ. You think these people who play around with 2-band EQs until an awful song sounds "better" *yet still unlistenable really care about their lo fi speakers reproducing things how they're supposed to sound? You're giving most people too much credit. There's only one golden rule of mixing for the masses, and that's that they don't care how "good" or "bad" it sound as long as it's catchy. I could easily mix the same song to sound good on some crappy logitechs and to sound good on my e55s and some of my friends would not tell a difference.

The people that would, would be the people that have an interest in higher fidelity than that.