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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Does anyone have ny actual experience with any of the speakers from this company? I have been curious about them but cannot find anything with a hint of credibility.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Green Mountain gets alot of mention at audioasylum.com and some mention in Steve Hoffman's forum, both of which are highly subjective forums.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I've seen the company's website. They aren't cheap, but there are any number of mainstream brands that get more expensive. I think the most expensive green-mountains were$ 14,000 per pair... about the cost of 801's

I just don't know if they are awesome, junk, or somewhere in between.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I don't know a thing about Green Mtn. Audio, in fact, I never heard of them until your post.

Are you just curious, or thinking of buying these on Audiogon?

For nearly the same price, I'd sooner get these Salk HT-3s.
 
J

JRandall

Audiophyte
I heard them at the RMAF show a couple of years ago. Nice soudning, but very expensive. Exotic materals. Very small company in Green Mountain Falls Colorado west of Colorado Springs.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
That would be just silly

Either test the water (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1292353214&/Green-Mountain-Audio-Europas-w)

or dive in (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1291228378&/Green-Mountain-Audio-Calypso-H)

Rarely do I do something "somewhere in the middle". (and the former of those two has crossed my mind).
Here are some reviews on thier products just to give you a vague idea

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/694green/index3.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gma2/callisto.html
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Those are some pretty nasty looking FR and waterfall plots.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Expensive....and wiring done by people who offer $9000 speaker cable/power conditioners/FEET FOR YOUR AMPS/etc :/
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Expensive....and wiring done by people who offer $9000 speaker cable/power conditioners/FEET FOR YOUR AMPS/etc :/
It could be me, but I seem to recall Salk at one point in the past offering internal wire upgrades of equally dubious useage. I know also that Roger Russell (one of the big advocates that speaker wire is just an issue of gauge, distance, and power) put upgraded cables in McIntosh's line of speakers (and indeed, they sold high-end cables) simply because that's what the cunsumer demanded.

There's a lot about green mountain that has prevented me from trying their gear. I do think that the cast marble is pretty cool. Sadly, in a world where B&W and Paradigm are both extoling the "sonic improvements" of biwiring; I have to accept that even the most legit of speaker companies include a great deal of marketing BS.

The question with Green Mountain is "does the speaker itself deliver?". 6moons seems to be propiganda, and Stereophile is notorous for useless reviews (except the measurement section). I imagine my curiousity will remain unsatiated until I run across someone who has some setup I can listen to.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It could be me, but I seem to recall Salk at one point in the past offering internal wire upgrades of equally dubious useage. I know also that Roger Russell (one of the big advocates that speaker wire is just an issue of gauge, distance, and power) put upgraded cables in McIntosh's line of speakers (and indeed, they sold high-end cables) simply because that's what the cunsumer demanded.

There's a lot about green mountain that has prevented me from trying their gear. I do think that the cast marble is pretty cool. Sadly, in a world where B&W and Paradigm are both extoling the "sonic improvements" of biwiring; I have to accept that even the most legit of speaker companies include a great deal of marketing BS.

The question with Green Mountain is "does the speaker itself deliver?". 6moons seems to be propiganda, and Stereophile is notorous for useless reviews (except the measurement section). I imagine my curiousity will remain unsatiated until I run across someone who has some setup I can listen to.
No dealers around you that you could visit?
 
R

RoyJ

Junior Audioholic
Hi Jerry,

This is from the designer of Green Mountain speakers. I appreciate your interest, thank you! Yes, we are a smaller company in Colorado, that has sold thousands of pairs over the last 20 years, worldwide. So, we are not exactly a tiny operation, and it is our time-coherent perfromance that has kept us in business for so long.

We are not considered a mainstream brand for several reasons:
  • It took almost ten years to develop a full product line, which kept us from appealing to the larger stores during the growth years of this industry.
  • In my opinion, the majority of audiophile-magazine reviewers are not well-qualified nor experienced, so we do not seek reviews from most publications, including Stereophile and TAS.
  • We do not introduce new products each year, which limits how much press coverage and internet-buzz can be arranged. I expect each design to stay in production for five years.
  • We never offer the latest gee-whiz technology via flashy-looking (multiple) drivers and complicated 'computer-aided' crossover circuit designs, because neither satisfies my design criteria. 'New' is seldom better, especially when it comes to raw drivers, and a complex crossover circuit only inhibits clarity and dynamics and always degrades time-domain accuracy.
  • Our cast-marble cabinet construction prevents production in mass-quantities.
  • Most GMA Owners do not participate in the audio forums.
  • We insist a GMA retailer keep our speakers set up and broken in, and present products on their audible merits, not 'what's on sale'.

We have had many, many reviews done by very-well qualified people, since 1993- often done by the editors themselves, and all reaching the same conclusions about our performance. Just this past Spring, we received two awards in England- a "Five-star" citation for our small Rio and an "Editor's Choice" selection for our Eos model (rarely given to American speakers). All reviews are available on our website, along with much customer feedback.

The poor FR and waterfall plots you refer to, Jerry, are from a 1994 Stereophile test, where their editor not only measured these speakers at a close-up 50", but also all the way down on the woofer's axis, while 'looking for' the time-coherent axis. He found it, but then the mid and tweeter were VERY far off axis to his microphone, showing up as a poor FR (contrast that to his 'in-room' FR graph). While that speaker's waterfall response was above-average for 1994, all of our later models' waterfall responses improved substantially as on those, we improved our cabinets' cast-marble and eliminated reflections from cabinet-surfaces.

Note in that Stereophile review, JA wrote "the listening axes on which the speaker is time-coherent and offers the most neutral response don't coincide." Certainly, on that particular 3-way design at only 50 inches away! Yet, that is how far away he can place a microphone before room reflections limit his measurements. Therefore, his FR graph did not reflect what was heard, which is not uncommon as you know, and we address this topic and other relevant ones on our website.

You would be quite surprised and likely delighted by our performance, but USA retailers are getting harder to come by. So, it will likely be some time before we are able to be heard everywhere. Yet we continue to exist, especially from sales overseas, because those who purchase our speakers hear straight away the differences our time-coherent sound makes to music, especially women and those familiar with the sounds of live instruments and voices.

I'd be happy to answer any questions, of course. I hope this helps put some light onto our operation!

Phillip, I appreciate and share your concern about 'over-priced' products, and yet you really should hear the performance of Marigo Audio's "TRi Mystery Feet" and their wires (which we use inside our HD-models and in our reference system along with the Audio Magic brand). My ears tell me this is all product worth using and worth its price, and I post my 'audio biography' on our site describing my training, experience and education neccessary to discerning good sound. It is the deep physics background I share with the designers of Marigo and Audio Magic products that makes the difference- definitely not snake oil. Personally, I try to find out if a given product produces the same improvement to most any system, for if so, that product is likely fundamentally better.

Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Designer
Green Mountain Audio
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The question with Green Mountain is "does the speaker itself deliver?". 6moons seems to be propiganda, and Stereophile is notorous for useless reviews (except the measurement section). I imagine my curiousity will remain unsatiated until I run across someone who has some setup I can listen to.
I share your doubts about GM speakers. They have 1st order crossovers and claim their speakers are time and phase coherent. This is technically very difficult to do while maintaining a smooth frequency response. I'm only aware of Vandersteen and Thiel that succeed at that. The GM speaker in the Stereophile review fails. See fig 2 for the frequency response curve (not at all smooth) and figs 7-9 where they don't quite achieve time coherent step response vs. time curves. I'm not sure whether I could hear any difference in two speakers where all things were equal other time & phase coherence.

The Stereophile review was done in 1994, and that model is probably not available now. They don't seem to have a more recent review. Still, for that price, I expect better performance.
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
I have been a lurker here from time to time. But I have never been inclined to register and post until I saw this thread. I hope my "newbie" status will not deter from my message.

I have been a GMA fan for many years, having owned 3 of Roy's offerings. The Callisto, the Imago, and now the Continuum 3 HD. I can tell you with hand on heart that Green Mountain Audio speakers are the real deal and compete easily with the best available. I welcome anyone reading this post into my home in Virginia to hear the C3s. And I will gladly list other speakers I have owned in the past if anyone is interested.

Shakey
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Roy,

Thank you for joining and posting here. I'm certainly in no position to speak for a board of people; but I believe that everyone appriciates when a designer will come and discuss his speakers with us.

Please understand also that, for me at least, there are things that make me skeptical of your product line: but at the same time I am very much open to the possability that it is terriffic gear. My early arguments with a builder here (WmAx) and my current owning of a pair of his speakers should attest to that.

I believe that the most useful form of posting is similar to the style you've just used (a narrative rather than a point-by-point), but it's not the way I find easiest to write in: so forgive me if I take the lower-road and quote-and-respond here.

Before I do, I'll cover some of your early response sans-quote: I see no problem with a lack of maninstream companies. When an idea fails to gain adoption, I like to understand why. It's a discussion I've had with planar vs. non-planar, or omnipolar vs. unipolar. I'm sure it's worth having with time-coherence, cast marble (I don't know if it sounds good, but it sounds cool), and crossover choices.

[*]We never offer the latest gee-whiz technology via flashy-looking (multiple) drivers and complicated 'computer-aided' crossover circuit designs, because neither satisfies my design criteria. 'New' is seldom better, especially when it comes to raw drivers, and a complex crossover circuit only inhibits clarity and dynamics and always degrades time-domain accuracy.
I am curious if you've ever considered the use of active crossovers. It would seem to off the best of all worlds excepting only the sudden need for more amps.

[*]We insist a GMA retailer keep our speakers set up and broken in, and present products on their audible merits, not 'what's on sale'.
And sadly, none near me.

The poor FR and waterfall plots you refer to, Jerry, are from a 1994 Stereophile test, where their editor not only measured these speakers at a close-up 50", but also all the way down on the woofer's axis, while 'looking for' the time-coherent axis. He found it, but then the mid and tweeter were VERY far off axis to his microphone, showing up as a poor FR (contrast that to his 'in-room' FR graph). While that speaker's waterfall response was above-average for 1994, all of our later models' waterfall responses improved substantially as on those, we improved our cabinets' cast-marble and eliminated reflections from cabinet-surfaces.
I do understand both points. The review is 16 years old, and so your speakers may have improved since then, especially given that was (I believe) relatively early in your development. Also, stereophiles measurements may be less... comprehensive than might otherwise be done.

I am sure I can find some people here on AH that would be more than happy to do a more modern review complete with independant measurements. Heck, I'm almost to the point I can do so myself excepting my lack of a proper listening room.

You would be quite surprised and likely delighted by our performance, but USA retailers are getting harder to come by. So, it will likely be some time before we are able to be heard everywhere. Yet we continue to exist, especially from sales overseas, because those who purchase our speakers hear straight away the differences our time-coherent sound makes to music, especially women and those familiar with the sounds of live instruments and voices.
I grew up with an uncle who was a professional conductor. I have poor language for describing problems with speakers, but (in my opinion) an excellent ear for catching them.

I truely would love to hear your speakers. It's unlikely that I'll be leaving the state any time in the next year (depends on my medical situation) so I fear it may be a while before I get the chance.

Phillip, I appreciate and share your concern about 'over-priced' products, and yet you really should hear the performance of Marigo Audio's "TRi Mystery Feet" and their wires (which we use inside our HD-models and in our reference system along with the Audio Magic brand).
There is a very signifigant amount of evidence that all properly built and sufficiently gauged speaker wire sounds the same. Disproving claims to the counter is a signifigant part of the early make-up of this site.

I have no desire to sound patronizing: but cliams of "superior wire" are going to severly color any other positions you assert until and unless you manage some extra-ordinary proof that these wires indeed improve sound (which given the accurate-well-beyond-human-hearing of normal wires seems a logical impossability).

Put bluntly: If you do have a very good speaker and want to make that case: I'd just drop a discussion of wires (unless it's to assert that you've done it for marketing purposes rather than sound, as some manufacturers have admitted). Even if you believe you are correct, it's likely to cause nothing but trouble for you here (again unless you can manage some never-before-achieved extraordinary proof).

On a lighter note: do you have your own on and off-axis FR, waterfall, and (would be great) cabinet vibration measurements? I personally am most interested in your bottom end (the one's I'd most likely buy first) and top end (I own more expensive that that now: so it's entirely within the realm of possability) lines.

And again, thank you for taking the time to post personally. For any designer, that can be harrowing: but if you do have a good product, and can defend those decisions, many converts can be had (the discussion on AVS Forums of Peavy's new amp is a good example).

Warmly,
Jerry
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… The poor FR and waterfall plots you refer to, Jerry, are from a 1994 Stereophile test, where their editor not only measured these speakers at a close-up 50", but also all the way down on the woofer's axis, while 'looking for' the time-coherent axis. He found it, but then the mid and tweeter were VERY far off axis to his microphone, showing up as a poor FR (contrast that to his 'in-room' FR graph). While that speaker's waterfall response was above-average for 1994, all of our later models' waterfall responses improved substantially as on those, we improved our cabinets' cast-marble and eliminated reflections from cabinet-surfaces.

Note in that Stereophile review, JA wrote "the listening axes on which the speaker is time-coherent and offers the most neutral response don't coincide." Certainly, on that particular 3-way design at only 50 inches away! Yet, that is how far away he can place a microphone before room reflections limit his measurements. Therefore, his FR graph did not reflect what was heard, which is not uncommon as you know, and we address this topic and other relevant ones on our website.
Roy Johnson, welcome to Audioholics and thanks for speaking up. It's not every day that we get to hear directly from the designer of the speakers we opine about!

While I was writing my previous post where I commented about the poor frequency response curves and the various step response curves in the Stereophile review from 1994, I wondered (to myself) how am I going to explain the importance of microphone placement (both height and distance) when trying to measure performance of 3-way 1st order time-coherent speakers? I decided to avoid trying to explain that and keep it simple. That was a mistake. Your explanation, which I quoted above, makes sense to me.

In a speaker designed like these, the crossover slopes are shallow enough so any two drivers (such as a woofer and midrange, or a midrange and a tweeter) are both operating over a significant range of the audio spectrum. As long as these drivers are not in the very same location, it is easy to place a measuring microphone so that one driver's sound arrives out-of-phase with the other driver - leading to deep suck-outs in the FR curve. This would easily explain the frequency response curve shown in fig. 2 of the review in question.

What would have been a suitable distance for the measuring mic?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
I have been a lurker here from time to time. But I have never been inclined to register and post until I saw this thread. I hope my "newbie" status will not deter from my message.
Hello Shakey,

It is an unfortunate truth, but in the event that someone wishes to praise or bash an object, subject, or idea: it is commonplace for them to create several personas on whatever board is involved and then post several posts toward the same conclusion as though they were several different people.

But I have no real reason to believe you are anything but an earnest and happy owner of GM speakers and I really appriciate your adding to the thread. Can you tell me a little bit about how you first tried and decided to buy GM, and what other manufacturers you have owned / used and especially liked or disliked. That would give me not only a good idea of your experience but, if there's overlap with my own, an idea if you and I like and dislike the same kinds of sounds.
 
S

Shakeydeal

Junior Audioholic
I guess I forgot that this site is vehemently objectivist and anti-subjectivist. But thanks Jerry for the quick reminder. I guess I for one will have to agree to disagree with you on things such as cables. And I assume, probably electronics too. A little history about me:

I am a tube and vinyl guy with a dedicated listening room and what I think is a better than average system. I still believe in sonic differences in cables, footers and other tweaks. I don't go overboard and asess these differences on equal footing with amps, preamps, and souce components, but the differences do exist to my ears. I guess I am in the distinct minority in this neighborhood, no?

Shakey
 
R

Robwiz

Audiophyte
I've lurked here for some time waiting for the opportunity to contribute on something I have experience on...

I first came across Green Mountain speakers at RMAF in 2006. What struck me was the absence of cabinet colorations, a sense of 'being there' coherence on vocals, and great transient performance.

I acquired a pair of Calypso HDs about 18 months ago, and to my ears they deliver the dynamics, bass extension and heft of a good horn design with the insight and neutrality of the best electrostats.

The time coherence (these speakers' main selling point) is an attribute that most people don't appreciate, because very few speakers do it. The big benefit is imaging and clarity of the sound stage.

The Calypso is a 3 way that allows the drivers to be moved relative to each other on slides to ensure time coherence. One time after moving my listening position I re-set my speakers. On auditioning them I could hear that the right speaker was not properly aligned. I re-measured and found that the mid was an eighth of an inch off - that's how sensitive the ear is to time anomalies.

If you to techradar.com and search for Green Mountain Rio you will find a review by Stereophile's Paul Messenger which describes what these speakers can do better than I can.
 
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