Bi-amping - Is Paradigm selling snake-oil??

[AJinFLA]

Passive bi-amping holds no "merrit" and will not apply more power to a speaker then single point amping becuase the single point source of power is still the AVR.

133watts < 244 watts < 375 watts

but there have been valid points on why it isn't worth doing.

Such as?

My only hold up is getting a measurement to prove

You don't have to. You just have to be able to perform kindergarten level math (unlike some "EE"s ).

 

[JerryLove]

Such as?

Complete lack of useful change coupled with the (presumed) expense. While there's likely little harm in using a second set of already matched channels that you had unused anyway: the same money used to purchase channels for passive bi amping could (usually) have been used to purchase a single bigger amp (or better speakers).

You don't have to. You just have to be able to perform kindergarten level math (unlike some "EE"s ).

In theory, practice matches theory; but in practice it does not.

 

[AJinFLA]

Complete lack of useful change coupled with the (presumed) expense.

You are the only one presuming expense (none with a mch receiver I mentioned or mch amp like Cobra has).
Complete lack of comprehension of the change in audibility of clipping spectral components, different current loading on the output stages for the separate impedances, etc, etc, etc....makes it only useless to you (or others with similar technical literacy), not all end users.
Paradigm obviously knows this, hence their general recommendation. You (and your ilk) are not their intended end user for "usefulness"/validity/etc., but rather those with the basic comprehensive skills required. Nothing unusual about that, for any manufacturer.

 

[JerryLove]

Complete lack of useful change coupled with the (presumed) expense. While there's likely little harm in using a second set of already matched channels that you had unused anyway

You are the only one presuming expense (none with a mch receiver I mentioned or mch amp like Cobra has).

Hence the sentace directly after the one you quoted. Did you stop reading after the first period?

Complete lack of comprehension of the change in audibility of clipping spectral components, different current loading on the output stages for the separate impedances, etc, etc, etc....makes it only useless to you (or others with similar technical literacy), not all end users.

A lack of a noticeable effect on sound is regardless of technical literacy; and certainly independant of your insults. (post reported)

Paradigm obviously knows this, hence their general recommendation. You (and your ilk) are not their intended end user for "usefulness"/validity/etc., but rather those with the basic comprehensive skills required. Nothing unusual about that, for any manufacturer.

There's nothing obvious about such a statement as many users have pointed out. The people I've known to have such hyped-tech in otherwise very sensable decisions (such as Roger Russell, or IIRC Salk), have stated that similar decisions (silver or very high-gauge wire) were based on marketability rather than actual performance.

Indeed, I have to wonder when you assert that everyone who does not support passive bi-amping is technically illiterate compared to you. Roger Russell comes to mind as an example of someone who has not advocated any such thing (despite the fact that McIntosh would certainly sell more amps that way).

If you are calling the Roger Russells of the world illiterate (and clearly you are), then this says nothing about them and a great deal about you.

(There's a similar issue with the lack of tri-amping on, well, everyone's speakers. Surely this kindergarden math works even better over three channels).

 

[PENG]

I did not read the whole thread but unless I missed something I thought the guy simply said using the unused channels to biamp could get the speakers more power. I don't think there is anything significant but there isn't much wrong about what he said either.

 

[AJinFLA]

Hence the sentace directly after the one you quoted.

What is a sentace?

A lack of a noticeable effect on sound...

By who?
Your (or others) limitations must be superimposed on all?

is regardless of technical literacy; and certainly independant of your insults. (post reported)

Ah, the victim card. Always the resort of the scoundrel, with a weak or no argument. Bravo.

The people I've known to have such hyped-tech in otherwise very sensable decisions (such as Roger Russell, or IIRC Salk)

Lets see, name dropping, appeal to authority.....at least you saved the reducto absurdum for the other thread.
Nothing to do with the actual topic, the efficacy of passive/vertical bi-amping. No technical response to clipping spectra or actual examples of current capability and different loading.....just name drops and appeal to authority. Par for the course Jerry. How informative to the reader trying to learn something.

 

[AJinFLA]

I did not read the whole thread but unless I missed something I thought the guy simply said using the unused channels to biamp could get the speakers more power. I don't think there is anything significant but there isn't much wrong about what he said either.

Bingo.
And the perfectly valid reason to do so (as the informed/Paradigm understand).
No one is suggesting going out and spending a bunch of money. Simply possibly beneficial utilization of what you already have.

 

[JerryLove]

I did not read the whole thread but unless I missed something I thought the guy simply said using the unused channels to biamp could get the speakers more power. I don't think there is anything significant but there isn't much wrong about what he said either.

Peng,

Pretty much everyone I've seen post has agreed that there's little actual harm to put unused channels to work in passive bi-amping. I managed a theroetical problem, but I don't think it's realistically going to occur.

Obviously: there's some disagreement over whether the task would be beneficial to the sound in any useful way.

 

[ohskigod]

interesting thread with a lot of ideas. I tend to think that whenever you have 2 extreme answers (in this case, biamping does nothing and biamping is the second coming....at least per Paradigm )

anywho, my humble opinion is that it depends on what amps and speakers you are speaking of. there are a myriad of speaker and amp combos where biamping would do nothing, this usually happens if you have a speaker that is more than adequately powered by one amp, 2 probably isn't going to make a difference.

the one time where I did biamp and it made a very marked improvement is with my Teledyne (Acoustic Research) AR9's. this is a pretty old speaker for those who haven't heard of it. Circa 1979 ish give or take a year, each speaker has 2 12" side firing bass drivers, an 8" mid bass, a dome mid and a dome tweet.

in this particular speaker, one set of terminals power the 12" inch bass drivers and the other set drives the mid bass, mid, and tweeter. Maybe its this layout (and the fact that this speaker eats power like a champ) is the reason why I heard such a big difference.

the amps used were Hafler DH500's, first using one amp to power both terminals, then one Hafler powering the top, and one Hafler powering the bottom.

really big difference that I was not expecting. So when one says with absolute conviction that biamping never makes a difference, I have to disagree, though i am sure the instances might be far and few enough between for many to think that.

I have never heard bi wiring make a difference, and admit that I am skeptical of bi wiring making a difference, though I never say never with audio. thats just me I guess.

 

[AJinFLA]

A link to the Signature Series owners manual is on this page (click the download & support tab):

They make the distinction between bi-wiring and bi-amping, and also state in emphatic terms that substantial improvements will be realized from bi-amping.

Ok, I finally bit the bullet and read the manual (as a guy, I hate reading manuals ).

Now I feel silly for wasting time saying pretty much exactly what they did .
They are technically informed...and correct. The "dramatic" (and maybe imaging) part needs caveats, but they explain the valid reasons for the difference.
Sadly, this thread reveals the why I feel badly for newbs, getting their info from those whose best technical knowledge asset...is an ability to type misinformation over an internet connection .

Maybe they are in good (or bad) company, but from what I have learned about bi-wiring/bi-amping on Audioholics, Paradigm is really pushing some misconceptions about how speaker connections work!

Tragically, this is as a result of the above. Best of luck to you (and Cobra etc.) deciding Kurt.

 

[Matt34]

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