To UPS or not to UPS (combine a UPS with an APC H15 power conditioner)

M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
Westom certainly earns points for consistency... :rolleyes:

Funny how none of his sources reference a 10' (or less) connection to earth ground even though that's a central tenant of his claims. He also doesn't seem to understand that the electrical neutral and ground are both connected to earth ground at the electrical panel.
Well, I'd hate to see this turn into a bash him or her thread because I just finished reading through one on a very closely related topic....

That said a UPS isn't typically the best surge protector. They don't have high joule ratings.
So, knowing a lightning strike is going do damage and I cannot do anything about that given the circumstances, what joule rating covers the majority of damaging spikes? True that UPSes do not have high ratings. The power conditioner has the highest I've owned (5000+). Just looking for base line protection from things that happen every day.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
So, knowing a lightning strike is going do damage and I cannot do anything about that given the circumstances, what joule rating covers the majority of damaging spikes? True that UPSes do not have high ratings. The power conditioner has the highest I've owned (5000+). Just looking for base line protection from things that happen every day.
I don't really know. The Wikipedia article suggests surges (at least experimentally created ones) are less than 100 joules.

In my basement I have my two APC Smart UPS's (for my servers and network equipment) plugged into a SurgeX SA15 which doesn't have a joule rating because it's not MOV based. The way I figure it the UPS's aren't cheap, so I'd rather not damage them with surges or burn out their MOV's which is why I put a better surge protector in front of them.

Keep in mind a good surge protector diverts the surge to the ground, rather than only trying to use the MOV to absorb it. The higher the joule rating the more energy can be absorbed by the unit before the MOV burns out. So a lower rated unit may just stop protecting after fewer surges (which is why you want one with an indicator for when it fails).
 
M

mikieboyblue

Audioholic Intern
I don't really know. The Wikipedia article suggests surges (at least experimentally created ones) are less than 100 joules.

In my basement I have my two APC Smart UPS's (for my servers and network equipment) plugged into a SurgeX SA15 which doesn't have a joule rating because it's not MOV based. The way I figure it the UPS's aren't cheap, so I'd rather not damage them with surges or burn out their MOV's which is why I put a better surge protector in front of them.

Keep in mind a good surge protector diverts the surge to the ground, rather than only trying to use the MOV to absorb it. The higher the joule rating the more energy can be absorbed by the unit before the MOV burns out. So a lower rated unit may just stop protecting after fewer surges (which is why you want one with an indicator for when it fails).
I agree. UPS's are not cheap and I am not someone who is made of money!

What about the issue of having a surge protector inline before a UPS? Does that cause the UPS to react slowly in the even of a brownout, blackout, or voltage change (AVR)?

I've been looking at the Smart UPS's from APC, but as they are prices, what model UPS's do you have?
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
What about the issue of having a surge protector inline before a UPS? Does that cause the UPS to react slowly in the even of a brownout, blackout, or voltage change (AVR)?
No, it doesn't change anything.
I've been looking at the Smart UPS's from APC, but as they are prices, what model UPS's do you have?
I have a 750XL with 1 extra external battery pack (SUA24XLBP). The other is a 750XL with just the internal battery.

They're both refurbished units from www.refurbups.com since refurbs are are so much cheaper. The SUA24XLBP battery I bought new.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
I've been hesitant to use refurbished UPS's, but it sounds like you have had good luck with them. Is my hesitation misplaced?
I've bought several. Two from RefurbUPS and one from UPSforLess. So far so good. They put new batteries in them and test 'em. UPSforLess even has a 1 year warranty which is as good as APC is going to give you on a new one. I personally wasn't concerned about it. They're considerably less than half the price of a new one which lets you get a much better UPS for the same money. My 750XL's were $150+shipping ($25). A new one is >$400 shipped.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
A UPS becomes important under a few conditions.

1) Some things don't like brown outs. Electric motors are prone to mechanical failure as a result of insufficient power, and electronics can become prone to data errors.

2) Some things don't like black outs. If you pull the plug from a projector, as an example, there's a tendency for the unit to break from overheating. Anything that you hear running its fan after you've shut it off: ask "might that be with good reason?"

3) Data retention. A data write doesn't occur "all at once". Something which might write code (anything from a DVR to a PC) may suffer data corruption if it looses power in the middle of a data write (firmware updates of all hardware also come to mind). This could result in anything from the loss of the data in question (a photo that is now distorted or unopenable) to a loss of device functionality (firmware unable to boot the device).

Is Westom still around? He must be a masochist.
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
They are also quite expensive and often have fans too.

Yes, they're more expensive than the standby units and smaller UPSs but the added protection is way worth it. The bigger ones do you have fans, but the fans usually go off when it's under heavy load, charging or running on battery. There's no fan noise when the unit is just operating on idle.
 
L

LazyBubba

Audiophyte
I've been hesitant to use refurbished UPS's, but it sounds like you have had good luck with them. Is my hesitation misplaced?
If the UPSs are tested and come with high quality new batteries, refurbished definitely offers a lot of value. A solid warranty is definitely crucial. Our office runs on refurbished SUA1500's, they power everything from our workstations to the servers in our server room. At home I use the smaller SUA1000's to protect the PC and home theater system. They're heavy duty units, we've been using them religiously.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Westom certainly earns points for consistency... :rolleyes:

Funny how none of his sources reference a 10' (or less) connection to earth ground even though that's a central tenant of his claims. He also doesn't seem to understand that the electrical neutral and ground are both connected to earth ground at the electrical panel.
The shorter the length of the grounding conductor, the lower the induced voltage that will occur as a result of a direct strike. However, as you correctly point out, w-dude has no conceptual understanding of house wiring, electronics, magnetics, nor even surge supression technology. He consistently cuts and pastes the work of others without an understanding. That is dangerous should others believe what he pastes.

In general, the little blurbs copies may not be incorrect, but the context in which the blurbs are use is horribly mis-understood and can be dangerous.

Well, I'd hate to see this turn into a bash him or her thread because I just finished reading through one on a very closely related topic....
It is unfortunate indeed when cut and paste content is used to pretend expertise. Lack of knowledge leads to advice which can be troublesome in the least, lethal in the worst.

So, knowing a lightning strike is going do damage and I cannot do anything about that given the circumstances, what joule rating covers the majority of damaging spikes? True that UPSes do not have high ratings. The power conditioner has the highest I've owned (5000+). Just looking for base line protection from things that happen every day.
The problem should be approached with a multi-tiered solution.

1. Reduce the possibility of a reference problem. This is what Martzloff writes about. All buildings must have a single point of entry for all conductive cabling which service the building. Nearby strikes can generate voltages between lines entering a building if they are not tied together to a common earth at the same location.

2. Reduce the line to line, line to neutral, line to ground, and and neutral to ground transients. This is typically done within the house by a whole house device located at the service panel.

3. Use a two port surge supressor at the equipment. This reduces further any transient or surge voltage at the end of branch, and it stops reference float as a result of the EM pulse generated by a nearby strike.

edit: if there is only one end device with only the power cord, the cheap throwaway spd's will give some protection, but they are not very robust given the price point.


Keep in mind a good surge protector diverts the surge to the ground, rather than only trying to use the MOV to absorb it.
Actually, a surge protector does not do that. This misconception also leads to the erroneous statement that a "surge protector is only as good as the earth ground"..that is terribly wrong, and any engineer understands why.

What they will do however, is clamp the potential between line, neutral, and ground. It does not "divert" the surge. A surge protector is incapable of holding the house reference voltage anywhere. The reference will float to whatever results from the earthing conductor impedance in series with the earthing rod(s) resistance to earth (which by code is less than 25 ohms).

The higher the joule rating the more energy can be absorbed by the unit before the MOV burns out. So a lower rated unit may just stop protecting after fewer surges (which is why you want one with an indicator for when it fails).
Correct, full agreement.

For better applications, the use of a whole house spd at the panel working in cascade coordination with a two port end of branch one will provide most a higher level of protection. The whole house units generally have a higher let through voltage, typically 400 volts, while the end of branch will be a little lower, either 300 or 350. During a transient, that difference combined with a run of romex with series resistance, will help the end of branch device survive a transient that would normally cause it to fold it's tent..

Line surges which are sufficiently high or of enough duration, cannot be stopped by a clamp device typical of consumer units.. The source impedance from the utility company guarantees a containment breach for any mov hapless enough to be there. For this scenario, automatic disconnection by a smart ups is the best solution.

Cheers, John
 

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