EPA to Crack Down on Farm Dust

M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The hyperbole is a bit thick. Unless someone has more specifics than I have seen mentioned "it's just a little dust" is no different than "it's the next dustbowl"... and for those who are completely ignorant of history, that had a lot of suck-age.

So I don't know if there's a real issue or not.

Then there's the issue of motivation. Do we know that the whomever passed / wrote this was trying to grow the EPA?

In fact, we see two different assertions of cause "It's the people that make roundup manipulating the EPA" and "It's someone in the EPA growing their agency". Either is possible, or perhaps neither is true.

So do we have anything more than speculation?
One might ask the same of you.

All we know is that more chemicals will be introduced into the food chain and someone thinks that's a grand idea.

Also, I've provided several articles backing up what was said.

So, instead of asking me for more proof again, I'll turn the table here: What do YOU have to refute it?
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The hyperbole is a bit thick. Unless someone has more specifics than I have seen mentioned "it's just a little dust" is no different than "it's the next dustbowl"... and for those who are completely ignorant of history, that had a lot of suck-age.

So do we have anything more than speculation?
While I'm writing a post of my personal experience.
See the link below to EPA's mishandling of Asbestos:
http://spiderjohnson.com/asbestos.html

A short excerpt:
"OUR STORY ON ASBESTOS IN THIS ISSUE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE EXPOSE OF THE exploitation of flawed science by the environmental extremists. Malcolm Ross, a mineralogist at the U.S. Geological Survey, knew something that the EPA and other involved agencies had overlooked -- that all asbestos fibers are not alike. Epidemiological studies have confirmed that the white asbestos (chrysotile) does not pose the same degree of health problem as the blue (crocidolite) and the brown (amosite). Ross tells me that the U.S. has not banned imports of the most dangerous type, the blue, because some government officials don't want to admit that the white asbestos is far less dangerous. They want to maintain the fiction that all three types are equally dangerous and their use should be equally restricted or phased out. Another subject: two articles in the latest issue of Science attacking the methods that have been used to test chemicals for carcinogenicity by feeding large doses to laboratory animals threaten much of the EPA's regulatory rationale. The National Academy of Sciences has been persuaded that critics of the testing methods have a good case, and its committee on risk assessment will be looking into it this month."
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The hyperbole is a bit thick. ... and for those who are completely ignorant of history.....
Ignorant of history indeed.

(I apologize for not finding the actual transcript form 60 Minutes; this is a brief synopsis)
The 60 Minutes' Report on MTBE and The Contamination of Water in the United States


The main thrust of the 60 Minutes program concerning MTBE was the fact that the EPA has known since 1980 that MTBE is a carcinogen and has polluted ground water wells across the nation to the extent that the water is unsafe for human consumption. The fact that MTBE is an insidious chemical should have prompted complete testing before it was forced on the American people by the EPA.

The contamination first started showing up on the east coast. I believe it was Long Island that had to have all of their water wells closed.

All of Santa Monica's water wells are contaminated. Drinking water has to be trucked in. The list of water well contamination is too long for me to remember. 49 states are affected by the contamination.

Closer to home (Sacramento), it is the Tahoe basin that has reported contaminated water wells and some have had to be shut down.

The MTBE, as I understand, was found to be leaking from underground fuel tanks in 1980. This prompted a massive underground fuel tank testing and replacement scam directed by the EPA. The dollar cost of the replacement tanks has forced most of the Independent gas station owners out of business nationwide, leaving the major oil companies with little competition for gas pricing.

It was the MTBE that ate holes in the fuel tanks causing them to leak! Knowing all this, the EPA still forced this billion dollar fuel tank replacement scam on the American people. Why didn't the EPA stop the use of MTBE instead?

The new, half-million-dollar-EPA-approved Vapor recovery fuel tanks, are leaking because of the MTBE. Why haven't our politicians protected us from the EPA?

Why were we lied to by our state governments? Gov. Wilson and the state legislature were briefed on the MTBE problem several years ago, but nothing was done. Gov. Davis is thoroughly briefed on the problem and is doing nothing.

Mrs. Wilson now has a high paying job on the ARCO board of governors.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
It's nice to know that the federal EPA is looking out for our best interests.

Sarcasm mode off.

From Rick's link in his first post above.

'In a little-noticed article in the Washington Monthly in March 1984, Jim Sibbison, a former press officer for the Environmental Protection Agency, boasted about how easy it was to use gullible reporters to spread scare messages. A former Associated Press reporter, Sibbison joined EPA in 1970, under Administrator William Ruckelshaus, and stayed there through 1981.

"One of the first things I learned in the job is that reporters take too much on faith what the government tells them," Sibbison wrote. "In those days, the idea was to get the media to help turn the EPA into an enforcer that struck fear into the heart of polluters... Few handouts, however, can be completely honest, and ours were no exception."'

It looks to me like they use the press as one might use a cheap prostitute. They can either hide the truth, bend it, or simply spread falsehoods, whichever suits their agenda at that particular time.

So, who's for Cap and Trade?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
"One of the first things I learned in the job is that reporters take too much on faith what the government tells them," Sibbison wrote. "In those days, the idea was to get the media to help turn the EPA into an enforcer that struck fear into the heart of polluters... Few handouts, however, can be completely honest, and ours were no exception."'

It looks to me like they use the press as one might use a cheap prostitute. They can either hide the truth, bend it, or simply spread falsehoods, whichever suits their agenda at that particular time.
Actually the more scary thing is in that same comment. The media is actually the bigger issue to me, since they enable all of it. They are the sheepherders and there's a lot of sheep out there.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Actually the more scary thing is in that same comment. The media is actually the bigger issue to me, since they enable all of it. They are the sheepherders and there's a lot of sheep out there.
I agree with this 100%. It's amazing how much the media affects how the masses think. A little spin here or there and they can get a lot of people to think the way they think.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
All we know is that more chemicals will be introduced into the food chain and someone thinks that's a grand idea.
Obviously or it would not occur. I suspect several someones, from the chemical companies who profit from it, to the farmers who profit from it might think so.

Can you tie this into what is going on with this regulation through something more than supposition?

Also, I've provided several articles backing up what was said.
I'm sorry. I missed it. Which post had the article establishing that Monsanto was behind the anti-dust rule, or that the sponsor of it was doing so for the express purpose of expanding the government.

Those were the two claims I said seemed rhetorical (and the "just a little dust hyperbolic).

So, instead of asking me for more proof again, I'll turn the table here: What do YOU have to refute it?
Nothing. I'm surprised you would ask given my previous posts.

I don't know how much of a problem current farm dust is. You said it's a non-issue. I've asked you to support that it's a non-issue. I have not noticed a link supporting that, but perhaps I missed it. In which post did you provide a link discussing the studied effects of farm dust and establishing it to not be an issue?

Actually: I'll go ahead and look it up.

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/02/25/25greenwire-federal-court-upholds-epas-rural-dust-rule-9867.html

Turns out that there's no conclusive evidence either way. That "breathing dirt can be harmful" should be obvious: the question must be duration / quantity (and what's in the particular dirt).

Here's another tidbit people seem to be not mentioning here: there's been dust regulation for decades. All the EPA is doing now is removing an exemption.

So yes. Maybe this is a silly change that will do nothing good. Maybe it's a needed change that will save lives. I don't know, and I don't see that anyone has provided a case for either.

Yes, maybe this is another example of a special-interest influencing the government; or maybe this is an example of an agency charged with protecting our health doing it's job. I don't know which and I've seen nothing but speculation for either.

And while I thank people for providing links to other activities in other decades that have nothing to do with this here and now... well, they have nothing to do with here and now. I suppose were I asserting the impossibility of a bad actor they would be useful; but I'm not.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Jerry, Jerry,Jerry. Now you're stooping to putting words in my mouth?

For shame...

Where did I ever say it's a non issue?

I did imply, however, that the cure may be worse than the disease, assuming there IS a disease to begin with.

Your lnk doesn't really show the EPA in too good a link, either. A snippet from your article.

"While the judges acknowledged that evidence about the dangers of rural dust is "inconclusive," they said that the agency was not required to wait for conclusive results before regulating a pollutant believed to pose a significant risk to public health."

Aren't you the one demanding proof from me? If the EPA doesn't have proff that it's harmful, what do you expect me to do?

But, dust from plowing has been with us from the beginning of time and we've survived quite well so far. Gotta grow food so people can eat, ya know...

Now, you're all for throwing more chemicals into the food chain? I dunno about that...

Ya wanna take a stab at proving it's good for us, or at least less harmful than that dust?
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
While I'm writing a post of my personal experience.
See the link below to EPA's mishandling of Asbestos:
http://spiderjohnson.com/asbestos.html

A short excerpt:
"OUR STORY ON ASBESTOS IN THIS ISSUE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE EXPOSE OF THE exploitation of flawed science by the environmental extremists. Malcolm Ross, a mineralogist at the U.S. Geological Survey, knew something that the EPA and other involved agencies had overlooked -- that all asbestos fibers are not alike. Epidemiological studies have confirmed that the white asbestos (chrysotile) does not pose the same degree of health problem as the blue (crocidolite) and the brown (amosite). Ross tells me that the U.S. has not banned imports of the most dangerous type, the blue, because some government officials don't want to admit that the white asbestos is far less dangerous. They want to maintain the fiction that all three types are equally dangerous and their use should be equally restricted or phased out. Another subject: two articles in the latest issue of Science attacking the methods that have been used to test chemicals for carcinogenicity by feeding large doses to laboratory animals threaten much of the EPA's regulatory rationale. The National Academy of Sciences has been persuaded that critics of the testing methods have a good case, and its committee on risk assessment will be looking into it this month."
I have talked with a few people whose job is asbestos abatement and they said that they're not all the same and told me why. The general opinions is that when it's in place, it's generally harmless unless it's made to shed fibers and they become airborne. Encapsulated, it's no problem. Wet, it's no problem. The EPA loves to fine contractors and manufacturers for not obeying their mandates, regardless of whether they make sense, or not. I also called the division for the state of WI that deals with hazardous waste removal regarding an old furnace that was in my house and needed to be replaced. He confirmed that if I kept it wet, double-bagged any that came off and took it to a hazardous waste disposal site, I would be fine. I took everything to the Waste Management site and the guy had me back up to a dumpster covered by a canvas tarp, which he threw open and he then proceeded to toss the ducts into the dumpster, creating a huge cloud of dust, which floated away in the wind. This site is on the East side of the grounds and across the street, are homes of the people who were unlucky enough to not move away when Waste Management bought the land.

IIRC, California banned MTBE partially because they found it, not only in groundwater, but also in Lake Tahoe. Seeing as this is some very prime real estate and a popular recreational area, they stood to lose a lot of money, so they made it look like they were trying to save people from a bad idea.

Government does what it wants, when it wants, and to whomever it wants and it doesn't matter which party is in office. They have perfected doublespeak and it's just another facet of their attitude that they're "a different class of citizens".
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
For shame...

Where did I ever say it's a non issue?
I did imply, however, that the cure may be worse than the disease, assuming there IS a disease to begin with.
Well, I'd start with post #1 where you ridiculed the entire idea of placing limits on putting dust into the air at all.

"What's next? Limits on bullsh!t?" - MarkW

I could also have been thinking of gmichael's sarcasm in post 16, 3db's synopsis of the effects of dust as "a runny nose" in post 18.

But if I've mis-characterized your position, I certainly apologize. As I understand it now, your position is that the dust in question might or might not pose a health hazard, but limiting dust will certainly pose a health hazard which will certainly be more severe than whatever hazard (if any) was posed by the dust?

What if the farmers simply water their land before tilling to prevent dust from lingering in the air? How will that pose a health hazard?

Aren't you the one demanding proof from me? If the EPA doesn't have proff that it's harmful, what do you expect me to do?
It seems, from where I sit, that you are the one with the positive claim. You are claiming that (and hopefully I have this correct) "dust from farming is less of a hazard that stopping dust from farming".

But, dust from plowing has been with us from the beginning of time and we've survived quite well so far. Gotta grow food so people can eat, ya know...

Now, you're all for throwing more chemicals into the food chain? I dunno about that...

Ya wanna take a stab at proving it's good for us, or at least less harmful than that dust?
By this logic there is nothing at all bad for us that actually exists. We have survived with lead, and mercury, and flesh-eating bacteria for thousands of years.

Of course, the people who died of heavy metal poising, flesh eating bacteria, and black lung might disagree.

You've accused me of putting words in your mouth, but isn't that exactly what you are doing here?

You have not only claimed that I've claimed that the dust emitted by farms is harmful (I have not), but also claimed that I support chemicals as the solution (which I have not), and that I have claimed chemicals are less harmful (again, I have not).

It's disappointing that you've continued to hack at straw-men, with no apparent desire to understand / address what I actually am stating: that the effects of dust from farms is undetermined, that the solutions to prevent it are undefined, and that there may or may not be a compelling interest in regulating that dust.

I've attempted to make sure I'm responding to your actual claims (see above). Do you think you can do the same?
 
G

Gizmologist

Junior Audioholic
Dust from farming is a hazard?

How about we outlaw street "sweepers" They are the silliest and biggest waste of state/city ever conceived. They do not clean anything. All they do is swirl any debris around and spritz some water on it all the while tossing massive dust clouds up in residential areas. Factor in the diesel fuel exhaust and noise and you have a lose-lose-lose situation.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, I'd start with post #1 where you ridiculed the entire idea of placing limits on putting dust into the air at all.

"What's next? Limits on bullsh!t?" - MarkW
Well, you've obviously went over yours here.


I could also have been thinking of gmichael's sarcasm in post 16, 3db's synopsis of the effects of dust as "a runny nose" in post 18.
There's really no telling what you're thinking. AFAICT, you just argue to argue.

But if I've mis-characterized your position, I certainly apologize. As I understand it now, your position is that the dust in question might or might not pose a health hazard, but limiting dust will certainly pose a health hazard which will certainly be more severe than whatever hazard (if any) was posed by the dust?

What if the farmers simply water their land before tilling to prevent dust from lingering in the air? How will that pose a health hazard?
Great idea, but water is needed in many other areas besides farming and a fairly scarce commodity in some areas, sometimes even rationed. Chemicals, however, can always be purchased from their local retailer, no?

It seems, from where I sit, that you are the one with the positive claim. You are claiming that (and hopefully I have this correct) "dust from farming is less of a hazard that stopping dust from farming".
I'll go with that, yes. Unless you like a side of more un-needed chamicals in your diet but that's your little red wagon, not mine.

By this logic there is nothing at all bad for us that actually exists. We have survived with lead, and mercury, and flesh-eating bacteria for thousands of years.

Of course, the people who died of heavy metal poising, flesh eating bacteria, and black lung might disagree.
IIRC, their dangers have been known for quite some time. Didn't you get the memo? :confused:

Again, there you go with putting words in my mouth.

Gravity and drowning has killed many people but you don't see people running to put limits on those, at least yet, do you? But then again, the EPA still exists. Who knows what's next on their list.

You've accused me of putting words in your mouth, but isn't that exactly what you are doing here?
No. In fact, I've just shown where you are trying it again.

You do like to argue just to argue, don't you?

You have not only claimed that I've claimed that the dust emitted by farms is harmful (I have not), but also claimed that I support chemicals as the solution (which I have not), and that I have claimed chemicals are less harmful (again, I have not).
Boy, you've said a lot of nothing then, haven't you? I've posted an article and you've responded and you say, you've said nothing.

Like one wise man said, you're either for something or against it. If not, what's your point aside from looking for a partner in mutual mental masturbation.

It's disappointing that you've continued to hack at straw-men, with no apparent desire to understand / address what I actually am stating: that the effects of dust from farms is undetermined, that the solutions to prevent it are undefined, and that there may or may not be a compelling interest in regulating that dust.
Hey, you created it, and continue to do . Burn in them. Read and comprehend your own link.

I've attempted to make sure I'm responding to your actual claims (see above). Do you think you can do the same?
Remember, there's more to a debate than merely asking questions. Sometimes it involves taking a position and defending it. You do neither. You just argue. But, one might see you as the master debater here.

And what claims do you dispute? What do you believe? Since you claim to have made none, you're just engaging in mental masturbation, you can continue it alone. That's something that's best done alone.

My 8 year-old grand-daughter she sometimes asks questions just to get attention. But, then again, she's just a child. One would have hoped you've outgrown that stage by now.

So, unless you've got something of value to add instead of your usual bullsh!t, TTFN. Just like when I step in it in my friend's horse corral, I'm wiping you off my feet and moving on...
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Well, you've obviously went over yours here.

There's really no telling what you're thinking. AFAICT, you just argue to argue.
So I answer a question you ask and you fall into rhetorical ridicule.

So if there's no telling what I am thinking, how can you tell that I'm thinking of arguing to argue?

And you unwillingness to answer the questions stemming from my original post shows you are here to argue what?

Nothing.

You simply assert a position and attempt to bully people who disagree. You accuse me of doing everything you yourself do, whether I actually do it or not in the hope that, by tossing one accusation after another.
1) something will stick,
2) the conversation will be about "me" rather than you.
3) the conversation will be about "me" rather than your post.

You have absolutely no clue if there's a real danger from farm dust or not.
You have no idea what farmers would actually do to comply with a regulation limiting it.
You don't even know if most farmers would be affected by it at all as you don't know what the current median farmer puts out nor what the limits will be.

In short: you have no clue whether this is a good regulation or a bad one... and neither do I.

Further: you don't have anything other than idle speculation about how this rule came to be on the table in the first place. Oh, you are full of conspiracy theories, and hell some are even plausible: but you don't have a single thing to establish that any are actually true.

But that didn't stop you. You went off spouting your conspiracy theories as though they were fact, and your supposition as though it were established knowledge; and when I said "we don't know", you started accusing me of the exact kinds of unsupported "fiction as thought it's fact" that you are doing.

It's no different than the guy that's sure that super-wire will sound better even though he has no data at all to back it up.

Shame on you.

Remember, there's more to a debate than merely asking questions. Sometimes it involves taking a position and defending it.
I didn't know I was required to debate. Your fixation on it seems like someone here to argue.

But I certainly do have a position, albet a negative claim. We have no data to draw conclusions from. I've stated it over and over from post one. You just keep ignoring it.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
So, does anyone else have anything useful to add to this thread?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey, hey,hey!If I have to pull this thread over, someone's gonna get it!
 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Jerry, I can only tell you this:

Most of don't have any first hand experience with the EPA; the one's that do, often exhibit an eye roll:rolleyes: when that government entity is mentioned. Partly due to the historical EPA boondoggles that have affected our entire nation. (some I've posted earlier)

My first hand experience with the EPA is what prompted my post, and it speaks more to the overall EPA, not necessarily this dust situation.

I give one experience in this post of mine here: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=739009&postcount=8

My wife has had plenty of first hand experience, due to her being involved in large commercial building management.
I've requested she share a few of her experiences with me.
Just hope I can get them IBTL.:D
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
OK, here's a personal experience and a brief recap:

My wife is involved with property management of large commercial buildings in an industrial park.
The EPA / DEP is holding up a new building, and an addition to an existing building, but won't give specifics. The unknown reason for the delay has been going on since last year.

(Please keep in mind that the industrial / office park is the designated area to build this type of structure; it's not like they are razing a forest to build this)

The initial permit process is costing the company $100,000. in fees, the delay is keeping at least 100 contractors and sub-contractors out of work, and putting great financial strain on the company that hopes to move into the new office building.

After a year and a half of ignored phone calls and letters to this government entity, a senior elected official was asked to get involved. (sorry, but have to be intentionally vague)
Since this meeting, seems now an extra $30,000 in fees is getting results.

The people that went to the meeting said the office was like going to a meeting with a group of radical environmentalist. They were very bitter that this building was being put up, and simply wanted to stall the process.
When the number of people they were keeping out of work was mentioned, along with the fact that it was being built in a designated Industrial Park. That didn't matter to them; though they were pissed at being outted to someone higher up the food chain.

Keep in mind, they're doing no environmental testing or studies at the site; the $130,000 is simply the permit fee.
 

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