DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Stereodude]

Honorable mention has to be given to the pioneer Grandarf who in the past was spot on his unpopular assessments of the company at a time when fanboys attacked.

You'll never convince me that Grandarf is/was anything but proof of the old adage that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Of course in retrospect he looks like a sage, but had things played out a little differently he'd just be a broken clock.

 

[GOSU1]

The thing I find most distasteful, is how this whole ordeal has splintered the audio community to the point where name calling and derogatory labeling of individuals seems to be acceptable and even encouraged.

Quad,

With all due respect, this is revisionist history. There has been name calling and derogatory labeling of individuals for years. Before the criminal proceedings were initiated, anyone who complained about poor service or an underperforming product, or that questioned Schifty or AV123 in any way, was viciously attacked and called various names by the AV123 fanboys. Although you were not the worst offender, you also were not an innocent bystander. The difference is that now it is the former fanboys that are being attacked. There is a sort of rough justice in this turnabout.

I do not believe that this small segment of the audio community will begin to heal until Schifty and AV123 have received the justice that they so richly deserve.

GOSU1

 

[Chu Gai]

Wow. Pretty interesting to see who the fanboys were back then and the crazy talk from them and MLS.

One question for those who know more than me - Post # 71 (page 3) has a reply from Rijax of TCA. He responds to this av123 comment:

"I believe we should applaud Mark and AV123 for allowing the public to become involved in product development and their attitude towards towards their customers.AV123 doesn't view us as just a sale or profits but as part of their family. I only wish the level of civility shown by AV123 would be shown by the rest of the businesses in the US. It would make the world a better place."

by saying: "Some people enjoy the involvement, some don't. We're very glad you are among the former. Thank you for the kind words."

Did he work for MLS before joining Der Komissar?

It sure comes across just a wee bit elitist to me. But work as in getting paid in some way? Not that I know of. I have spoken with a couple of individuals and one in particular talked about meetings that they were in at some of the get together's that MLS would attend as well as people who fancied themselves as his inner circle, closest supporters, (potential) business partners, or whatever you want to call it. In those meetings, MLS would talk about products that were going to be made, phased out, not brought back, never going to be made, etc. I don't think those folks actually had a strong say in anything but they knew things the members of AV451 didn't. In that sense they worked for MLS and really weren't members of the AV451 community. If you were a member of the community and you really identified with them, then IMO you didn't serve that community very well by letting people think there'd be additional speakers coming that they could buy which would match their fronts. Instead, people bought speakers with the expectation that sometime in the near future they'd be able to add to them to complete their HT setup. That future never came and those people in the inner circle knew it. For them, it was more special that they find a warm comfortable place in his bowels like a hamster. In the end though, he phucked them all and played them for fools like he's still doing.

I did enjoy these quotes in particular.

Now, call that subliminal, sleazy salesmenship if you choose. But, I'll take the high road any day and and accept it for what I feel it is. A man that passionately cares about people and the audio business. From the time he first got a taste of it sitting on his grandfather Saul Marantz's lap, through his years working for and with some of the industry giants, to owning several audio companies along the way.

Sure, on the back end donations are tax write offs. But, on the front end, the REASON for the raffles and subsiquent donations that Av123 has held over the years on their forums have benifited many MANY people and causes.

He didn't raffle off gear and then match it penny for penny to buy $15K worth of medicine to send to an orphanage in Russia for the tax write off.... he did it for the children there who were dying.

That said... I love you dearly (as you know) and as we have gotten to know each other - you know 1st hand what drives and motivates me... I'm comfortable in that...

All the best...

mls


Imagine how many of TCA's new $159 dollar Scamp (10" powered sub) Cali is gearing for... We installed two new "push lines" just to manage the "production flow" of this product in Craig's building there (I'm just home - and I saw these going in)...

Progress is being made...

All the best...

mls

Yes, imagine how many Scamp's. A lot were certainly going to be made in Craig's building. Was there a building? If there was, that was certainly generous of either MLS or Santiago to fund it don't you think?

 

[MinusTheBear]

There were some AV123 members that had defining positions with the company. Skeeter was given the obudsman role and Ajax was given the role as AV123 ambassador. I am positive this is correct, but if I am wrong someone please correct me. As to getting paid for these positions, you will have to ask them because I don't think it was ever public knowledge.

 

[Chu Gai]

There were some AV123 members that had defining positions with the company. Skeeter was given the obudsman role and Ajax was given the role as AV123 ambassador. I am positive this is correct, but if I am wrong someone please correct me. As to getting paid for these positions, you will have to ask them because I don't think it was ever public knowledge.

Hell, he didn't pay his suppliers and the employees have always gotten the shaft. Maybe he gave them special discounts but I think for them, just knowing they were special and chosen was more than enough payment. Besides, whenever they needed to reach him, even if he was in Khabarovsk, they could use this to shine an image into the sky and he'd know he was needed.

 

[Tex-amp]

You'll never convince me that Grandarf is/was anything but proof of the old adage that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Of course in retrospect he looks like a sage, but had things played out a little differently he'd just be a broken clock.

I believe tube guy at AVS was the 1st truly vocal critic of MLS style and products. And the 1st to get the "we know who you are and will deal with you threat."

A bunch more became vocal after the whole 750 measurement debacle confirmed their suspicions.

Having traded PM with Grandarf, he like Chu and others critics got plenty of info from PMed to him by people who know audio. I salute Grandarf and Chu for never giving up. I wish I could pat my back on this but I changed my screen name at AVS a good while back as every discussion I was involved in seemed to devolved into what my deal was with 451.

 

[Tex-amp]

I bet all the old 451 forum posts are recorded as part of the investigation and subsequent charges filed against MLS. I wonder if it would all be available through open records requests and someone could host the whole archive so that people can see it.

Otherwise, I'm guessing Chu may have very large portions of it that someone could host.

 

[Chu Gai]

A lot of stuff may be available from their former hosting source. I seem to recall the owner of that place is related to someone who used to work there. From time to time, I might post stuff that I've archived.

One thing that purging all the threads serves to do is that people who had made valid complaints about their product no longer have an on-line record which may include comments from the company pertaining to it. It'll sure be interesting to see what happens in about another week or so after the judge says, "Will the defendant please rise?" My guess is you'll click on their address and a message will pop up saying something to the effect of thanking their customers and supporters but AV451 has had to close shop due to economic considerations beyond their control and file for bankruptcy. Hey, Kyle. Good thing you're now a contract worker, huh? Good luck on unemployment benefits.

 

[Chu Gai]

This might make a wonderful and thoughtful gift.

 

[droht]

In terms of the "soft" employees and what they were paid, I believe some rec'd store credit. I also think some won raffles, though that could never be considered payment, unless you could possibly believe that some of the raffle winners were not chosen at random.

I can't prove any of that with hard evidence, but that is what my memory says from too much wasted time on the old av123 forum.

 

[m-fine]

I don't believe Jack was ever part of anything underhanded at AV123. He May have been an early recipient of Mark's generosity when he was a little loose with what now seems to have been Pu's money and products, but for the most part he was just another member of the community who was used, abused, lied to and conned.

I do not know if he was ever paid or how, but I would be surprised if he was ever an employee in the legal sense. Maybe a contractor at most. His main role if I remember correctly was to be the forum responder for people who had issues. He would handle things with a level of calm and professionalism that the Buzz army of fans lacked. He took his job seriously and I think he genuinely tried to help people as much as he was capable.

While he did defend Mark a bit too much and for too long, I don't think he can be compared to Kyle who seems to have been actively involved in perpetuating and covering up the fraud.

 

[droht]

I don't believe Jack was ever part of anything underhanded at AV123. ...

I agree 100%.

 

[wshuff]

Which one is Jack? Ajax?

 

[dwayland]

Which one is Jack? Ajax?

That is correct. I can 10000% vouch for Jack. A 100% honest and truly great individual.

Derek (going back into my cave now....)

 

[Shifty123]

That is correct. I can 10000% vouch for Jack. A 100% honest and truly great individual.

You have obviously never seen how he responds to those that disagree with him or his masters.

Let's just say he's working for the right boss from a stylistic perspective.

 

[GirgleMirt]

In terms of the "soft" employees and what they were paid, I believe some rec'd store credit. I also think some won raffles, though that could never be considered payment, unless you could possibly believe that some of the raffle winners were not chosen at random.

LOL What would be so surprising in Schifty hand picking winners for his "charity" raffles? We're not talking about a ethical individual here... We're talking about Schifty... It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he did. Hell, if he didn't, I'd be fairly disappointed in him...

You'll never convince me that Grandarf is/was anything but proof of the old adage that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Of course in retrospect he looks like a sage, but had things played out a little differently he'd just be a broken clock.

Hey, while so many thought they looked awesome riding on the Schifter/av666 party train, he was one of those who refused to drink the kool-aid... And doing so, he effectively pissed in a lot of cheerios! In Schifter's no doubt, but then effectively also doing it directly in his follower's cereals...

But I find your statement interesting, somehow, you downplay the fact that he was able to see through av666 and schifter and attribute it to sheer luck... While at the same, you're doing what, absolving the av666 fanboys for not seeing through the charade? I think that's a seriously flawed view of the situation... Maybe it's a defense mechanism from someone who got played and refuses to face the truth? The charlatan embezzled you, but someone who wasn't fooled wasn't simply because of sheer luck? I don't buy it...

I think there will always be fools who will fall for any trick or scam... I think the signs were clearly there for av666 and Schifter... Probably not to the extent that Chu Gai uncovered, but the hype, the sect like following and all of that, I think that was plain to see, and over the years I've seen a lot of people not buying into it... Most people who I've discussed the matter in person were surprised that so many fell for the scams; charity donations, prepayments, fabulous sales, etc. But then it comes down to people being gullible and easily fooled. It's funny that this seems to such a recurrent theme.

Hell, take Chu, how much sh!t did he have to take to bring all of this forth? I think he did an amazing job... Simply... Amazing... But even while he was doing it, how many tried to stop him? How many insulted him? Called him names? Said he had a vendetta and all of that? That he was petty and I don't know what other ridiculous crap? Sadly, another thing which I find amazing, is the lack of perspicacity of some... (And I say this while knowing that I got in many past heated arguments here and other places, and some might have been thinking the exact same thing of me... lol). But it is amazing the propensity of some in simply holding on to their beliefs, no matter what. They'll ignore arguments, refuse to reflect or think about something, throw out facts/info, and still be more contempt thinking that they are correct, rather than really go through the exercise to determine whether they are right or wrong. The Schifter debacle was that...

As I said earlier, the signs were there, some were just unwilling to see them. They would rather drink the cool aid and think they were right and were awesome, rather than exploring the possibility that they might be wrong... They simply were not interested in anything which even hinted that they could be wrong... Does that remind you of anything? Religion maybe? Superstition? Brainwashing? Sects? Ooops, already said religion... But I see great parallels... And I believe that the "community" so many referred to lovingly, was in fact a sect, no less...

Schifter built himself an online audio forum sect, based on this persona he invented, and people drank the cool aid directly from the pitcher... Then it snowballed into something pretty damn big.

But seriously, I've read that they've employed a lot of shills... Do I know exactly how many? No... but seriously, how much of an effect were those shills in the success of av666 and shifter? I'm not pointing any fingers here, but at the beginning, while av666 was growing, how large a role played shills? I've been told avsforum had a lot of problems with av666 shills at one point... But I've never gotten to the bottom of it... now that the skeletons are out of the av666/Schifter fiasco, is that something which can be discussed? Couple years ago, it was a sort of open secret... Many seemed to know about it, but it just couldn't be discussed, for obvious reasons... So after the fact, now that we know what we know about av666 and Schifter, anyone has the scoop on the shills? That always irked me...

 

[droht]

I doubt that mls had paid shills. What I think he had were seriously duped individuals who were de facto shills without any real compensation or job description. He was so good at running the game that he didn't need to put people on the payroll to hype his gear. Hell, he had to pull the fanboys back on more than a few occasions, where their virulent backing of him became somewhat embarassing I think.

Now were some of those most ardent supporters hand-picked to win raffles? It wouldn't surprise me. And if they were I don't think it means they were "in on it". It was just part of the game mls played to control people.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Now were some of those most ardent supporters hand-picked to win raffles? It wouldn't surprise me. And if they were I don't think it means they were "in on it". It was just part of the game mls played to control people.

++ Still, I wouldn't cross the possibility that there was more Schifty stuff going on...

I doubt that mls had paid shills. What I think he had were seriously duped individuals who were de facto shills without any real compensation or job description. He was so good at running the game that he didn't need to put people on the payroll to hype his gear. Hell, he had to pull the fanboys back on more than a few occasions, where their virulent backing of him became somewhat embarassing I think.

Well, as I said, at one point I was told that avsforum had discovered they were using, and like I said, seemed to be rather common knowledge (ex quick google: "How do you think companies such as xxx and av123 became so popular so quickly in such a short period of time?"), avs found out by checking the IPs vs logins... Anyhow, I know of at least a couple ex-av666 employees who appeared as 'regular' forum posters, and then at one point it became known that they were working for them... Obviously, they were furthering their own cause... But maybe it was after the fact: fans who then become employees, I don't know exactly, haven't followed things around nearly closely enough to know everything about them...

But.. After giving it a thought...Maybe it's way off subject Maybe PM? New thread? Ideas?

 

[tesseract]

Considering that MLS and HWSNBN at TCA were partnering on stuff, and the timing of that partnership and the rave reviews of the MFW is highly suspicious and never explained but erased from history and covered up, and TCA has run some raffles and is into vaporware av123-style, well, the smart money is on Chu.

All TCA raffles were over funded, you gibbon. Your sock puppet posts all resonant with the same agenda, TCA bashing and linking TCA to AV12Guilty, and are transparent as hell to those who know better. Why don't you just use your regular Audioholics username? Stop being a coward.

The MFW-15 was fairly rated. The v2-v3 amplifier caveat has been added the TCA ratings. I am sure you didn't over look this, you just chose to omit this information from your agenda based posts. Thanks for another dubious contribution to a dubious thread.

This thread started out as a worthy consumer alert. It has de-evolved into mudslinging from there, thanks to posts like yours. Pitting one against another, drawing lines in the sand. Just fade away, dude.

You feel you have something to contribute to this thread? Reply with the username you are afraid to sully, ditch the punk @ss subdude sock puppet replies.

To the Audioholic moderator(s), that have manipulated my posts in the past, I challenge you to let this one ride. Others can add or take away from my valuable Audioholics reputation points as they see fit, that's OK by me. Majority rules.

 

[tonygeno]

You have obviously never seen how he responds to those that disagree with him or his masters.

Let's just say he's working for the right boss from a stylistic perspective.

True dat. On both counts.