SACD & DVD-A output to A/V receiver

[bmninada]

Hi, can i use the HDMI output from my SACD/DVD-A player Denon 1940CI into my Onkyo TX-SR606 and achieve 5.1 output? I would like to use the Denon's DAC and not Onkyo's. OR, it's required to use the multi-channel output from Denon to Onkyo. If HDMI works, is there any setting I need to do in Onkyo.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi, can i use the HDMI output from my SACD/DVD-A player Denon 1940CI into my Onkyo TX-SR606 and achieve 5.1 output? I would like to use the Denon's DAC and not Onkyo's. OR, it's required to use the multi-channel output from Denon to Onkyo. If HDMI works, is there any setting I need to do in Onkyo.

The Onkyo does not have a DSD decoder. So you will have to use the analog outputs, unless the Denon can convert DSD to PCM and send it via HDMI. Look in your manuals.

 

[bmninada]

If Denon can convert, then is there are any loss to quality of audio due to conversion?

 

[TLS Guy]

If Denon can convert, then is there are any loss to quality of audio due to conversion?

Some say yes, but I doubt it. SACD was developed because the loony golden ears refused to believe you can reconstruct a sine wave out of 1s and zeros.

However there is one problem with multichannel SACD via PCM. The European and US speaker layout for playback and mastering of SACD are different.

There are only five channels plus a sub on some. Virtually no European SACDs have a sub channel, none of mine do. The bigger issue is that for US SACDs the rear channels are in the usual surround position, like 5.1. For European SACDs, the surround channels are the rear backs. The usual surrounds are supposed to be silent. So European SACDs with antiphonal program on the surrounds, don't sound right when the PCM signal is sent as PCM via HDMI. This is because after decode at the receiver from PCM, all the surround information goes to the surrounds, whether it is meant to go to the rear backs rather than the surrounds.

 

[bmninada]

Is there something which can be asked here which leaves everyone stumped for answer!? My Gosh - what a terrific response.

 

[allargon]

Some say yes, but I doubt it. SACD was developed because the loony golden ears refused to believe you can reconstruct a sine wave out of 1s and zeros.

However there is one problem with multichannel SACD via PCM. The European and US speaker layout for playback and mastering of SACD are different.

There are only five channels plus a sub on some. Virtually no European SACDs have a sub channel, none of mine do. The bigger issue is that for US SACDs the rear channels are in the usual surround position, like 5.1. For European SACDs, the surround channels are the rear backs. The usual surrounds are supposed to be silent. So European SACDs with antiphonal program on the surrounds, don't sound right when the PCM signal is sent as PCM via HDMI. This is because after decode at the receiver from PCM, all the surround information goes to the surrounds, whether it is meant to go to the rear backs rather than the surrounds.

If there's no sub channel, wouldn't your receiver send the sub 80Hz info to your sub anyway? I never understood why this was an issue for people not using analog inputs.

 

[TLS Guy]

If there's no sub channel, wouldn't your receiver send the sub 80Hz info to your sub anyway? I never understood why this was an issue for people not using analog inputs.

Yes, via PCM it does. The problem with the sub is with the analog inputs as there will be no signal to the sub. So either the speakers have to be full range capable or a sub signal has to be derived by the owner.

We have discussed this many times. Basically SACD is a highly flawed format and the sooner we move to Blue Ray Audio discs the better.

Bottom line, there are problems with converting to PCM over HDMI and with using the 7.1 analog inputs. They are just different problems.

If you want to listen directly from the DSD decoder, you have to develop DIY solutions to bass management and level balancing. That is the approach I take.

 

[skizzerflake]

Some say yes, but I doubt it. SACD was developed because the loony golden ears refused to believe you can reconstruct a sine wave out of 1s and zeros.....

SACDs were introduced to increase the digital sampling rate and give 5.1 channel sound. They still reconstruct sine waves with 1's and zeros, they just do it better. Whether you accept the sampling rate argument or not, it's hard to argue with the great 5 channel sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

SACDs were introduced to increase the digital sampling rate and give 5.1 channel sound. They still reconstruct sine waves with 1's and zeros, they just do it better. Whether you accept the sampling rate argument or not, it's hard to argue with the great 5 channel sound.

True but DSD has a frequency response out to around 100 kHz, as the sampling rate is 64 times higher than CD. I think one can reasonably argue this is overkill.

I grant that the 44,100 Hz of CD is close to the wind, but it is undeniable that CD can sound very good, although dynamic range is not quite adequate for some program.

DSD is the highest sampling rate at 2,822,400 Hz. I do think that on some program SACD has the edge over CD, and multichannel is an added bonus.

However the 192,000 Hz rate of BD discs is also more than adequate. Some recent opera purchases on BD have probably the finest audio in my collection.

Here is an article comparing PCM to DSD.

 

[sholling]

Hi, can i use the HDMI output from my SACD/DVD-A player Denon 1940CI into my Onkyo TX-SR606 and achieve 5.1 output? I would like to use the Denon's DAC and not Onkyo's. OR, it's required to use the multi-channel output from Denon to Onkyo. If HDMI works, is there any setting I need to do in Onkyo.

The Onkyo TX-SR606 has a DSD decoder however I've never tested it.

From page 30 of the manual:

Supported Audio Formats
• 2-channel linear PCM (16/20/24 bit/32–192kHz)
• Multichannel linear PCM (7.1 ch, 32–192kHz)
• Bitstream (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, Dolby TrueHD, DSD)
Your DVD player must be able to output these formats from its HDMI OUT.​

 

[TLS Guy]

The Onkyo TX-SR606 has a DSD decoder however I've never tested it.

From page 30 of the manual:

Supported Audio Formats
• 2-channel linear PCM (16/20/24 bit/32–192kHz)
• Multichannel linear PCM (7.1 ch, 32–192kHz)
• Bitstream (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, Dolby TrueHD, DSD)
Your DVD player must be able to output these formats from its HDMI OUT.​

Yes it has, but on page 63 of the manual it says it converts DSD to PCM. Even more interesting it says that quality will be better if the player is set to output PCM. That seems to be an admission of a lousy PCM conversion. The DAC on that unit seems to halve the sampling frequency if any stream presented to it above 48 kHz.

A receiver would have to convert to PCM as you can not process easily or cheaply in DSD. So if there was no conversion to PCM there would be no control.

That is the problem of outputting DSD directly after analog conversion with no PCM conversion. You have no control of anything except master volume. You have no individual channel level set, delay or bass management, unless you build into your system yourself which is what I did.

I don't believe there is a topic more generally misunderstood in audio today, than the issues surrounding SACD playback.

 

[bmninada]

Clearly there's a difference

I got myself a 5.1 channel SACD and played outputting from 5.1 analog out into Onkyo MC in and kept Denon at Audio only more including setting Pure Audio. Consider this as setup #1.
Setup #2: The same track i sent via HDMI with no bit-stream conversion to Onkyo. (Pure Audio switched off now)
Setup #3: is Denon did the conversion and sent to Onkyo using HDMI (Pure Audio switched off now)
Setup #4: is Denon sent to Onkyo using Optical (Pure Audio switched on now)

Out of these 4 cases, I found setup #1 gave to MY ears the best output with a very balanced bass.
Setup #2 had slight hissing in center channel and bass was horrible (over dB)
Setup #3 was good but when I asked my wife to blindfold me and she repeated setup #1 and #3 in random, I still picked setup #1 4 out of 5 times!
Setup #4 is a funny story. You good folks might be able to help me here. In DIRECT more (as in Onkyo) the sound is awesome and in ALL CHANNELS SURROUND more (as in Onkyo) the sound is almost as good as setup #1. Denon, as I stated is in Audio only mode and Pure Audio switched on.

Note : Setup #1,#2,#3 in Onkyo were set to DVD Direct mode and all inter-connects used very high quality monoprice purchased cables.