this is very tempting...

boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
Hello all!

I'm looking for a sub to accompany my Energy RC 10's. I want to turn my 2.0 setup to a 2.1 and the primary use will be for music, concert dvd's and the occasional movie. Having said that, the Emotiva Ultra Sub 10 is on sale right now for $269 shipped! (My budget right now is roughly $500, could be more if I wait, but I really want a sub now) Though after googling a bit, there seems to be very few reviews about it. I'm leaning towards that right now as it is a sealed sub and is better for music (Is this true?) and I want to be able to pull the trigger before the sale ends unless there is another sub that might better suit my setup. The room is a small bedroom.

All feedback is more than welcome thanks in advance! :)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
What size room (in cubic feet) including any spaces open to it?
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
What size room (in cubic feet) including any spaces open to it?
There are 2 openings to the room, one opening that leads to a hallway and another opening that leads to the sink area of the bathroom- the opening that leads to the hallway has a door that will be closed when the speakers are being used. The other opening has no door. Both openings are to the back of the room and are directly facing the speakers.
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
One last bit of info

My music preferences range from rock (Bon Jovi, The Eagles, U2, Queen) to classical (mostly symphonic works, violin concertos, some opera).
 
BufordTJustice

BufordTJustice

Junior Audioholic
It seems two of these Emotiva 10-inchers could work well. I know that the eD A2-300 12" or the SVS PB10-NSD 10" would work wonders as well. HSU Research had their VTF-2 Mk3 12" on sale for $504 a couple days ago. The last three should produce more output than the Emotiva 10" driver, just based on cabinet volume, amp power, and simple math. :)

Emotiva also has a 12" sub that may be worth trying. I would advise at least two tens or an upgrade to the 12". Having that precious headroom is great even for music.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
That's a small room so it may the little Emotiva may be enough but I'd be tempted to go with a bit more powerful sub. At least Emotiva's $359 SUB-12". Or eD's A5s-300 which is $550 shipped and has a lot better specs. You can always turn down the volume on a more powerful sub but you can't get more than 100% out of a too small sub.
 
boboi

boboi

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for the feedback! The last thing I want is buyer's remorse, for not buying "enough" sub the first time around. I don't want to be left "wanting more" so going for a more powerful 12" sub sounds like a good idea. The ability to have extra headroom also makes good sense. My only concern is that for music, is it true that a larger 12" woofer (granted that my last sub was an older 12" JBL that just muddied the music) has a slightly slower response than a 10" woofer?
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the feedback! The last thing I want is buyer's remorse, for not buying "enough" sub the first time around. I don't want to be left "wanting more" so going for a more powerful 12" sub sounds like a good idea. The ability to have extra headroom also makes good sense.
I missed the part where you said "two of these Emotiva 10-inchers" and that might work but I know I'd want more extension.

My only concern is that for music, is it true that a larger 12" woofer (granted that my last sub was an older 12" JBL that just muddied the music) has a slightly slower response than a 10" woofer?
In the Myths sticky you'll find a link to a page that answers your questions (and more) far more authoritatively than I can.
 
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BufordTJustice

BufordTJustice

Junior Audioholic
The ability to have extra headroom also makes good sense. My only concern is that for music, is it true that a larger 12" woofer (granted that my last sub was an older 12" JBL that just muddied the music) has a slightly slower response than a 10" woofer?
More headroom is always good.

The issue of 'speed' is nonsensical as shown in the above link to 'subwoofer myths' (a very good read, btw). There is only accuracy. My 18" Sealed elemental Designs A7s-450 is the most accurate (and loudest) sub I've ever owned. Sealed or ported, a quality sub will be accurate for music or movies. I mostly listen to music, and from Diana Krall to AC/DC, there is nothing sloppy or inaccurate about my A7s-450. For moving air, a standard 12" driver could be considered small by some for subwoofer duty.

I have a long background in pro-sound and I can tell you that, if 12 boxes with two 18" drivers each can be 'fast' and accurate at 130dB at the face....then a single 12", 15", or 18" quality home subwoofer system can be accurate as well. I mean no sarcasm.

I said all that to say that to say that, yes, you should get the 12" Emotiva if you can afford it. Further, TWO 10" Emotivas will move more air than a single 12". As has been stated, moving more air is better. I'm confident the Emotiva(s), an SVS, a HSU Research, or an Elemental Designs sub woofer would sound great for your purposes. They are all tight and accurate.
 
BufordTJustice

BufordTJustice

Junior Audioholic
From the above audiopulse link:

"Myth #3: Subwoofers are fast/slow:

More appropriately labeled Damping or Ringing, these concepts are really reciprocals of one another have nothing to do with speed, tightness, “boomieness” or any other misused and inappropriate term for subwoofers. Subwoofers, or rather bass drivers, all move at the same frequency when instructed to via an input single. The difference is really about the Q alignment of the system. There are many famous Q alignments which produce various frequency responses, but beyond the complex mathematics is a fundamental principal of force and acceleration and the driver will respond to a sinusoidal wave at various accelerations depending on the moving mass and force that the voice coil and motor generate on the cone. Therefore any driver can be faster or slower depending simply on the voltage! It makes little sense to call any driver faster or slower.

Damping or Ringing is really what we’re after and the amount of either is really a function of system volume along with the electro-mechanical damping factor of the driver. For example, in a sealed box system, as the volume of the cabinet becomes small, the internal pressures increase when the driver pushes in and out. This pressure is a force which, not nearly as strong as the electromotive damping force, works in the opposite direction. Contrary to intuition, higher internal pressure (which we tend to associate with tightness or stiffness) decreases damping and promotes ringing at one particular frequency (Fc in the case of a sealed box). The pressure from the air inside the box works against the driver’s natural damping factor of 1/(Qts). When the pressure becomes large relative to the motor’s damping factor, the driver will ring more and cause a peak in SPL at the given resonate frequency (Fc). This tends to be somewhere around 40-60Hz in a given sealed box, but could be outside that range under abnormal circumstances. This peak is ill desired and is accountable to the proclaimed “boomy” sounding subwoofers which tend to lack clarity, good transit response and dynamics. However some people prefer some ringing because it provides a natural boost in a very audible frequency band. Likewise, in a larger box, the Q will decrease and the ringing and SPL around that frequency will too, but the low end will open up and you’ll have more deep bass. This tends to sound better and more controlled.

On the flip side, over dampened drivers tend to have poor low frequency response and require equalization to boost the low frequencies. They tend to work better in vented boxes where their larger motor force factor (BL^2/Re) is put to good use with a resonator which then makes the low end much more efficient with its increased displacement. Likewise, drivers with high Qts will work better in sealed boxes and should be exempt from being used in a ported system without careful consideration. When high Q drivers are used in a vented system they will ring at the tuning frequency of the box (Fb in this case) and the “boomy” problem is considerably worse."
 
BufordTJustice

BufordTJustice

Junior Audioholic
Last one I promise:

"# 8 Smaller drivers sound better than bigger drivers:

One of the biggest myths about woofers is that 8’s and 10’s are “tighter” and “cleaner” than 15’s or 18’s. Nothing is further from the truth. What tends to happen is that the smaller drivers have lower Q’s because manufactures tend to put large cones on smaller motors to increase SPL and sensitivity but not BL product. Well unless the motor can compensate for the extra mass it has to push, then the Qts will not be the same as the smaller drivers and ultimately the driver may not be suited for the same kinds of alignments and could ring too much and compromise the perceived sound quality. Having said that, high Qts drivers are not any less “tight” or “musical” than well dampened drivers, it’s just they require larger boxes and less internal pressure to prevent ringing. Ultimately there becomes a point where a driver really should be used in an infinite baffle where its actual Qts and Fs becomes the system Qtc and Fc. As enclosure volume decreases, Qtc increases and it will take a driver with a low Qts to make for an average Q system. So in conclusion, the only reason to use a smaller bass driver is for space, weight and potentially power considerations, but likewise, it is inappropriate to try and fit a larger driver into a space smaller than it is ideal for."
 
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