Spend less on speakers, more on acoustic treatment?

[Alex2507]

I can honestly say that proper room acoustics made the biggest difference ...

Thank you.

 

[AJinFLA]

I've been in hundreds if not thousands of homes in my life time and have personally met tens of thousands of people. How is that too small a sample?

Did you ask them all specifically, "What is your awareness of and how would you rate the need for acoustic treatments"?

I'm not about to start swapping speakers around.

Then I guess you'll never know if it's the source..or the room.
How many people who "Blame the room" do you think would be able to do what I asked you, i.e. replace the only type of acoustic source they are aware exists (their cone n' dome box, probably ported), with a different type of directional source...and completely different room interaction?

Anyway I think one frequency in question was around 315(?) +/- whatever ... close enough. It beams off a small piece of side wall about 6' from my right.

The (your) speaker is fairly omin-directional (or nearing) at that frequency, so it would be reflecting off far more than just that side wall. Possibly a mode being excited by your particular type of source (monopolar speaker), in their particular positions in the room. The "bad" room that is .

My thought is that any other reasonably similar/accurate speaker would produce the same result.

And like all others that blame the room, do these "reasonably similar/accurate speaker" sources, all have a dome over some cones, on the face of a box with a port??? Maybe "radically different", with a ribbon tweeter, or a exotic real wood hand finish???
Then I too, would expect the same result. Every time .

I'm so confused now that I need somebody to get over here to straighten both of us out.

How about a Gramma or SubDude? You use anything like that?

Oh, I'm already straight on the issue. Have a look here for another view.

Both Gramma's are passed away. I have a couple Subdudes on the hard drive. Seen 'em live too. Good show .

cheers,

AJ

 

[Alex2507]

Did you ask them all specifically, "What is your awareness of and how would you rate the need for acoustic treatments"?

Of course I did. Evey single last one of them.
That would be like asking them what they thought of purple ceilings when they clearly did not have purple ceilings. I know that people without purple ceilings think that purple ceilings are overrated ... therefore they don't have purple ceilings. I don't ask questions I know the answers to.

How would you expect people to rate the need for a product they are unaware of or don't use? They would say that those things are unnecessary. That's why they don't have them. ... what's my point? Oh yeah, most people think that treatments and purple ceilings are overrated so they don't have them much like ... owning tortoises.

I am completely lost and wouldn't even post this but think the purple ceiling tortoise is sufficiently deep to just go with it.

Oh, I'm already straight on the issue. Have a look here for another view.

Not now. I have a headache ... maybe later.

 

[Alex2507]

... my room is my biggest issue.

Thank you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, here is my personal (non-DBT) subjective experiment (n = 1).

Without the 4 large Acoustics Panels:

I listened to a song. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Audyssey basically did not make any drastic changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

With the 4 large Acoustics Panels (one in each corner):

I listened to the same song. I heard absolutely no difference whatsover. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Again, Audyssey basically did not make any changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

Conclusion: I Wasted $500 of my good earned money on the 4 large Acoustics panels.

 

[gmichael]

I am a firm believer that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you concentrate all your resources in a few areas and leave one or two out, then you fail. Room acoustics are very important, just as picking the best speakers, amps and sources to fit your budget are. Leave one link out and your chain won’t hold back an asthmatic gerbil.
Balance is the key.
Do most people (read: Average Joe's) overlook room acoustics? Most likely. Just as there are more people with Bose than Apogees. The people here are another story. We (us) know better. At least, most of us do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, if your local stores sell Acoustics Panels, I guess you could try them out and return them if they don't work.

But I don't like paying $500 on something that did not work at all.

 

[gmichael]

Well, if your local stores sell Acoustics Panels, I guess you could try them out and return them if they don't work.

But I don't like paying $500 on something that did not work at all.

Are you sure they were in the right place? Did you try the mirror trick to check for reflection points?
Also, $500? You could make those yourself for under $100. There are how too threads around here somewhere.

 

[Seth=L]

Illogical. Unless you can provide specific data that quantity of people is somehow correlated to the rating of importance for treatments. The relation?


Really? Ok, now repeat the test, without the speaker (acoustic source) and tell me what you hear and measure. Remember, the room itself will be otherwise completely unchanged. Tell me what "problem" with the room you find.

cheers,

AJ

You seem to have no understanding of room acoustics. My understanding is limited, so maybe you'll understand better having it come from someone that isn't seasoned in it.

Let's go back to highfigh's statement about clapping in a room. If you clap or yell in a room and you can hear an echo then "sound" is reflecting off objects or walls in the room meaning you are hearing the same sound again but at a later time, perhaps several times. A speaker produces "sound" and that sound will reflect on those same objects and create a reverberation that is not part of the original recording. Since it is not true to the original recording then your accuracy is not optimal.

Bass propagation is another concern and some people have limitations on placements in a variety of rooms. There's a reason these treatments are in place.

Basically what you're saying is that recording studios, movie theaters, and audio experts have all fell for the clever marketing schemes behind "room treatments" which is absolutely absurd.

 

[Seth=L]

Okay, here is my personal (non-DBT) subjective experiment (n = 1).

Without the 4 large Acoustics Panels:

I listened to a song. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Audyssey basically did not make any drastic changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

With the 4 large Acoustics Panels (one in each corner):

I listened to the same song. I heard absolutely no difference whatsover. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Again, Audyssey basically did not make any changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

Conclusion: I Wasted $500 of my good earned money on the 4 large Acoustics panels.

You have bipole speakers, treatments don't often work well those as I understand it because of how they are meant to interact with the room. Bass traps would yield more significant results with your system. Also, you can just put treatments anywhere.

 

[Alex2507]

Well, if your local stores sell Acoustics Panels, I guess you could try them out and return them if they don't work.

But I don't like paying $500 on something that did not work at all.

I know this one guy ... (you know him too) that bought the raw materials and did a pretty decent job treating a room with appreciable results only to go back to having an untreated room because the aesthetics weren't up to his standards. 90% of his music was played at low volumes for background so the trade off of having better sound 10% of the time while looking at panels 100% of the time wasn't worth it.

ADTG, I completely get what you're saying too. I can imagine a room and a speaker system that sound good on their own. I'm not even going to qualify that with a 'to you'. It exists ... that's all. At the same time other rooms and speaker systems exist that benefit from treatments and equalization and have been measured to demonstrate the improvements. Davemcc comes to mind. I already mentioned that TLS is on the other end of the spectrum but the most note worthy thing here is that they have both chosen to stay out of this discussion.

 

[AJinFLA]

My understanding is limited

Indeed.
At least read the link I provided to Alex, even if you can't comprehend it, give it a shot. Hopefully it won't make your head hurt like his .
Btw, weren't you the one also saying the 802 polar disaster speaker was a "neutral" reproducer IIRC? Based on your understanding of acoustics also I'd assume.

Basically what you're saying is that recording studios, movie theaters, and audio experts have all fell for the clever marketing schemes behind "room treatments" which is absolutely absurd.

Actually, the use of appeal to popularity, a logical fallacy, is the absurdity. Bravo, well done Seth . Bose cubes must be the best .
Don't include "experts" like Dr Earl Geddes, Toole and Linkwitz, etc. in your fallacy list. Do less typing and more reading of what they have to say, so your limits might increase a bit.
Btw, I'm pretty sure Sean (Olive) would agree also. Ask him next time he's here.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Alex2507]

Hopefully it won't make your head hurt like his .

Now my @ss hurts.

 

[AJinFLA]

I can imagine a room and a speaker system that sound good on their own.

No need to imagine. Just change your sources from what every "bad room" advocate in the thread is using, as I suggested, to a source with a different polar pattern (something they cannot comprehend). Check that same 315hz "problem" and see what happens .
Btw, did you take any aspirin and read that link yet?

cheers,

AJ

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you sure they were in the right place? Did you try the mirror trick to check for reflection points?
Also, $500? You could make those yourself for under $100. There are how too threads around here somewhere.

Yup. I also moved the panels around the sides of the room for those mirrored reflection points. I heard absolutely no difference whatsoever.

There was another member here on this forum - Joe-something. Anyway, he PM'ed me and said he had tried the same thing I did in his room. And he could not tell the difference either. He was smart and was able to return his panels.

I'm not much of a DIY person.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know this one guy ... (you know him too) that bought the raw materials and did a pretty decent job treating a room with appreciable results only to go back to having an untreated room because the aesthetics weren't up to his standards. 90% of his music was played at low volumes for background so the trade off of having better sound 10% of the time while looking at panels 100% of the time wasn't worth it.

ADTG, I completely get what you're saying too. I can imagine a room and a speaker system that sound good on their own. I'm not even going to qualify that with a 'to you'. It exists ... that's all. At the same time other rooms and speaker systems exist that benefit from treatments and equalization and have been measured to demonstrate the improvements. Davemcc comes to mind. I already mentioned that TLS is on the other end of the spectrum but the most note worthy thing here is that they have both chosen to stay out of this discussion.

Yeah, I suppose everyone and every room may be different.

For example, I have never been able to like Audyssey, Room Correction, EQ, etc., while others seem to love Audyssey, EQs., etc.

I always prefer Pure Direct Mode.

 

[Seth=L]

Indeed.
At least read the link I provided to Alex, even if you can't comprehend it, give it a shot. Hopefully it won't make your head hurt like his .

I guess you'll just go ahead and ignore everything else I said, bravo.

I read the link btw. A speaker may have great on axis response and poor off axis response. If you are positioned in the sweet spot I think on axis response is significantly more important. Add treatments then you don't need to worry as much about the off axis problems. If you like how the speakers sound this way I don't see the problem.

That's still doesn't address standing waves that cause nulls or humps in bass or echoing reflections even from a speaker with a perfect off axis response.

And stop being a smart ***.

Btw, weren't you the one also saying the 802 polar disaster speaker was a "neutral" reproducer IIRC? Based on your understanding of acoustics also I'd assume.

Inert cabinet matched with good quality drivers and an active EQ sums to make a speaker that sounds any way you want it too.

Stop dwelling in the past.

Actually, the use of appeal to popularity, a logical fallacy, is the absurdity. Bravo, well done Seth . Bose cubes must be the best .
Don't include "experts" like Dr Earl Geddes, Toole and Linkwitz, etc. in your fallacy list. Do less typing and more reading of what they have to say, so your limits might increase a bit.
Btw, I'm pretty sure Sean (Olive) would agree also. Ask him next time he's here.

I won't claim to know what each of those experts knows or does.

I do plenty of reading, and it seems to me you do a lot of typing. There are clear holes in much of what you've said in this thread. Let's not forget your contradicting statement either. In one post above you said room treatments are overrated and in nearly if not all cases the room is not the problem. Then you followed up with that you don't sell them, but if you did your opinion might change. Honestly? What in the hell does that mean?

I think I reserve the right to disagree with Sean about a few things considering he apparently believes a stock $600 pair of speakers is superior to a wide range of much higher end speakers of very competition levels of engineering. I have no questions for him, nor do I have any questions for you.

 

[highfigh]

Okay, here is my personal (non-DBT) subjective experiment (n = 1).

Without the 4 large Acoustics Panels:

I listened to a song. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Audyssey basically did not make any drastic changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

With the 4 large Acoustics Panels (one in each corner):

I listened to the same song. I heard absolutely no difference whatsover. Ran Audyssey x 8 locations on Denon AVR5308. Ran Audyssey again just to make sure. Again, Audyssey basically did not make any changes to my setting. And the sound is exactly the same after Audyssey.

Conclusion: I Wasted $500 of my good earned money on the 4 large Acoustics panels.

How did you have the panels oriented- along a wall or across the angle? For bass, mine proved to work better along the end wall. What size are they, including thickness?

 

[AJinFLA]

I read the link btw. A speaker may have great on axis response and poor off axis response. If you are positioned in the sweet spot I think on axis response is significantly more important. Add treatments then you don't need to worry as much about the off axis problems. If you like how the speakers sound this way I don't see the problem.

You obviously didn't understand all what the link contained, but that's fine. As you said, if you like the way a speaker sounds with horrid polar response, that mandates stuffing a room with gauze and bandaids to "fix" the problem you have self created, then there is no problem. I agree with you. Enjoy

That's still doesn't address standing waves that cause nulls or humps in bass or echoing reflections even from a speaker with a perfect off axis response.

Then you did not comprehend what you read in the link. Both are addressed.
Average room furnishings, sofas, rugs, wall hangings, bookshelves, etc. are all sufficient. What is the likelihood of the average person sitting in a plastic chair listening in a small bare tiled room with zero absorption/diffusion?
The bass issues are due to the fact that you remain oblivious (despite claiming to have read the link) to the fact that different acoustic sources will excite various modes differently, when spatially positioned/repositioned. Read the link again. There are plenty more links within it.

Inert cabinet matched with good quality drivers and an active EQ sums to make a speaker that sounds any way you want it too.

That you cannot comprehend that eq cannot fix polar/power issues is irrelevant. You can make it sound how you want. It is incapable of doing so for others with a much higher standard for fidelity. To each their own.

I won't claim to know what each of those experts knows or does.

I think I reserve the right to disagree with Sean about a few things considering he apparently believes a stock $600 pair of speakers is superior to a wide range of much higher end speakers of very competition levels of engineering. I have no questions for him, nor do I have any questions for you.

Then you choose to remain in ignorance. So be it. As I indicated to Peng, it is typical to cherry pick what suits your beliefs, then simply dismiss what does not. You may not have questions for either of us, but we'll have answers for you.

Stop dwelling in the past.

And stop being a smart ***.

I find it an excellent predictor of the future.

What is it they say about your own medicine tasting like?

Have a good one.

cheers,

AJ

 

[krzywica]

Of course I would probably be an ********* too if I looked like..