DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Hugh-Melody]

Dane,

I am not addressing YOU directly but the LS products are way far from being all delivered.

[*]He knew about similar matters with the LS-9's and 6's.

• Yes, I knew about delays in product for LS. As far as I know, all LS products have been shipped, albeit with lingering frustration of recipients.

..dane

 

[Chu Gai]

OK. I don't know your motives other than you wanted to do business with him. Whatever your motives were, and I'm sure they were complex in nature, as you say the action was ill considered. But understand, whether it was your intention or not, that action put you on one side of the fence. Unintended consequences and all that.

As to how your company is structured in the state it operates in, you can research that online if you want by going to your state's website. Maybe I'll do it later tonite. I'll buy your explanation that you were unaware of the things you said. I'm sure you understand that when entering into business relationships, it pays to do research into the entity. Santiago found that out I think to his deep chagrin. So did folks who separately invested 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars with MLS. They should've done more homework. More investigating. BTW, best of luck with the engineering things as well as your family.

 

[dane]

I just saw that you admitted that you still do business with AV123...

...to get a speaker and a subwoofer working. The plate amplifier opportunity thing died a LONG time ago...

Dane,

I think it is posts like this one:

http://forums.av123.com/showpost.php?p=763458&postcount=11

That make people feel you are still in full support of MLS. Up until today, you haven't given an inkling of being upset with any of MLS' deeds.

What you say you believe and how you are acting don't seem to mesh - actions speak louder than words - and your actions are those of someone with knowledge of MLS' wrongdoings who is willing to overlook them.

Jim C

True-- I can't argue that I told him happy birthday in that thread. There is a real part of me that still wishes everything would just go back to being happy. And with a simple thread based only around an idealized belief of a well-wishing happy birthday message, I participated. I can see your interpretation of that post, however. So to be clear-- I'm not in support of what's been done --- raffles theft, refunds/products not fulfilled, etc. I can see how that post can be very confusing to onlookers though. thanks.

I'd be happy to go delete the post to remove the confusion but then some other conspiracy theory would crop up like I'm trying to hide my tracks by deleting posts.. so I'll just leave it well enough alone if it's all the same to everyone..

I don't know, but wouldn't you want to attempt to get a clear picture of a company, track record, and maybe some kind of a history with other vendors, before attempting to do business with it?

Those kinds of checks would have followed suit if negotiations had proceeded beyond the stage that they did. All we did was get a BOM and provide a quote to produce some PCBs. Wasn't even a complete quote (did not include assembly, test, shipping, warantee, etc). We never even heard back from them if our quote was even in the right ballpark. We just submitted a quote and that was the last we heard of it.

Dane,

I am not addressing YOU directly but the LS products are way far from being all delivered.

Oh-- I thought they had all been delivered by this point. My bad. That's just another example of how distant I really am from all of these details.. I read all the disgruntled posts in passing, but since it's just a side hobby of mine and I didn't have any speakers on order (much less LS's), I never did spend a whole lot of time keeping all the details straight. I thought I had read somewhere though that all LS orders where shipped... oh well. Maybe I mis-read that somewhere instead..

OK. I don't know your motives other than you wanted to do business with him. Whatever your motives were, and I'm sure they were complex in nature, as you say the action was ill considered. But understand, whether it was your intention or not, that action put you on one side of the fence. Unintended consequences and all that.

I'll accept that interpretation as long as you accept that such an inference was not my intention. And then that issue also can be considered resolved.

As to how your company is structured in the state it operates in, you can research that online if you want by going to your state's website. Maybe I'll do it later tonite.

I guess that makes sense that it will differ for each state. The question does not really need to be researched and answered. I'm not terribly concerned whether or not my company's paperwork lists all shareholders/etc.. I was just asking a basic question. No need to spend a lot of time to answer. Thanks though!

I'll buy your explanation that you were unaware of the things you said. I'm sure you understand that when entering into business relationships, it pays to do research into the entity. Santiago found that out I think to his deep chagrin. So did folks who separately invested 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars with MLS. They should've done more homework. More investigating. BTW, best of luck with the engineering things as well as your family.

As my degree is in engineering and not business management, I'll be quick to admit that I am still very young in the tooth regarding business relationships. There are a enough highly skilled people in my company that specialize in those things (that allows me to focus on my design work) who would have surely done their due diligence had it gotten to that stage... and it is events like this one that I learn from. As mentioned however, it was a few hours work that I did that people are drawing all sorts of conclusions from. I can see why now, but they're still the wrong conclusions.




Lastly-- AV123 forums was where I chose to put all my posts about things from having our first child to selling and buying houses, to home renovations and additions, so forth and so on... It was a wonderful community. Even with as few people are there now, it's been a hard habit to break, I think because people there do (did?) know me. Here-- not so much (as evidenced by this thread, obviously)! I'm not sure where I should go next. I'm not a big fan of hunkering down somewhere as large as AVS... So I do continue to post there about amplifiers that I'm repairing (ufw-10, Audire Forte), things for sale, and what-not. I am sorry that such a choice gives the feeling that I am "hand-waving" over said transgressions...




I hope this discussion has been as useful to everyone else as it has to me.

cheers,
..dane

ps.- why does everyone refer to it as "AV451" or "AV321" ? Is it turning into "He who must not be named?"

 

[gonk]

Maybe you're right. A friend just sent me an email who has read a bunch of these past few days posts and offered that maybe I still just haven't come to grips with everything that's happened. Maybe he's right.

You are in the same position as plenty of other people. I never held Mark in the same high regard as some, but it still took me quite a while to come to terms with how deep the rot went. If you don't have time to sort through this thread, there are a few of us who can help summarize at least some of the history via PM or email.

And until the email my friend just sent me 10 minutes ago, I didn't know either that Sean P. had a court appearance against MLS. And no, I don't know how that went either-- I just heard that there was one. I'm sorry, my life just doesn't revolve around these proceedings!

Neither does mine. Like you, I'm an engineer, with a job that involves design, project management, and production management as well as a bit of IT management from time to time. My legal knowledge is limited, and my free time is always in short supply. Still, I have kept an eye on these matters and tried to stay reasonably well informed ever since some time last year (when I realized that there were major problems with the raffles as well as the business, both of which impacted an online community that I consider myself part of). The short answer is that Sean has been thoroughly mistreated by both AV123 the corporation and Mark Shifter the individual over the course of years. He had to go to small claims court to get LS parts that he was owed after AV123 "forgot" them last year (years late even then) and then never bothered to deliver them for many months. And it didn't simply require him to file in small claims court - they didn't do anything for him until the judge told them to. You have been around AV123 long enough to recall how much Sean did for that company when he was there. He worked very hard for them. When he left, he was shown nothing but disrespect. If you were still considering possible business dealings with AV123, I'd suggest that you contact Sean, Mark Seaton, Ruben at Fallen Enclosures, and perhaps even Mr. Pu before doing so. All worked with AV123, and all could likely offer some useful details regarding the company's business ethics. Since I think we're already past that point, though, I'll just say that Sean's legal efforts are a good example of why so many people are uncomfortable with both Mark and AV123.

 

[gonk]

Oh-- I thought they had all been delivered by this point. My bad. That's just another example of how distant I really am from all of these details.. I read all the disgruntled posts in passing, but since it's just a side hobby of mine and I didn't have any speakers on order (much less LS's), I never did spend a whole lot of time keeping all the details straight. I thought I had read somewhere though that all LS orders where shipped... oh well. Maybe I mis-read that somewhere instead..

The problem, once again, is the behavior of AV123 (the corporation) and their president. You haven't seen any reports of undelivered LS's at AV123's forum because such reports are subject to deletion, and the individuals involved have all been pestered and chastised and otherwise told to shut up about it that they've quit trying to buck the system. Some may even be banned - as absurd as the idea of banning someone who has prepaid thousands of dollars for a product you haven't delivered yet may sound, it is the way they are operating. Your reaction is natural: no more complaints of undelivered product, therefore it's all delivered. You haven't seen any complaints of unpaid refunds, either, though, and there are quite a few RSL-II beta testers whose $6,000 investments have still yielded nothing but excuses.

 

[Hugh-Melody]

Dane,

You didn't misread at all.

Schifter did state on av123 that ALL will be delivered by the end of last November.

Since I am in legal proceedings, I can't say much more than that.

Oh-- I thought they had all been delivered by this point. My bad. That's just another example of how distant I really am from all of these details.. I read all the disgruntled posts in passing, but since it's just a side hobby of mine and I didn't have any speakers on order (much less LS's), I never did spend a whole lot of time keeping all the details straight. I thought I had read somewhere though that all LS orders where shipped... oh well. Maybe I mis-read that somewhere instead..

cheers,
..dane

ps.- why does everyone refer to it as "AV451" or "AV321" ? Is it turning into "He who must not be named?"

 

[subdude]

I think the last few pages are a great illustration of this quote from a Biblical wise man:

"He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."

How likely is it that if I head to the site for AV123's PA branch (HWSNBN) I'll
find Dane there too?

As the magic 8-ball would say, "all signs point to yes." Why do I think that? Because the only folks I have ever seen defend or at least refuse to distance themselves from MLS all live there now.

Anyone know? (I try to avoid that site because of all the members posting porn- never sure what I'll bump into and don't want to try to explain that it was "an accident" to the fam if they come in at the wrong time and the wrong click.)

Bottom line is that at some point you become known by the company you keep (or keep silent about).

 

[cschang]

There is a real part of me that still wishes everything would just go back to being happy.

I think this is the fundamental issue that you need to come to grips with. A lot/most of that "happy" was based on deceit.

The central figure, that most thought was a great person, turned out to be a scam artist/con man.

 

[geekinthehood]

You are initialed to your opinion that Chu is wrong naturally,but to say he ran off the rails by saying,Mark betrayed the remnants of the AV451 community and [has] next to no integrity." ,is a pretty damn fair assessment of how most people feel,and exactly how I feel.

I was referring to Dane, not Mark. We're in complete agreement that MLS is scum.

 

[geekinthehood]

...the LS products are way far from being all delivered.

I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping that they had all been delivered by now, but I guess that's not the case. I can't imagine how I'd feel if I were still waiting for my LS9s.

 

[MinusTheBear]

ps.- why does everyone refer to it as "AV451" or "AV321" ?

The 451 part of AV451 is a reference to a Ray Bradbury novel Fahrenheit 451. The temperature at which raffle donations "burn". I find it quite clever myself.

The 321 as opposed to 123 I believe is a reference to the downward spiral of AV123 - counting down to them going out of business. Any type of growth is highly unlikely.

It is not related at all to HWSNBN and you still can call them by AV123 by all means.

 

[GOSU1]

Dane,

My biggest concern is that someone will stumble onto the AV123 website and/or its heavily-censored forum and will make a purchase while unaware of the sordid history of AV123 and MLS and the risks of doing business with them. By your posts on the forum, you were one of the worst, if not the worst, enablers and facilitators (with maybe only Kyle challenging you for that title) of AV123’s coverup. You helped give MLS and AV123 an appearance of legitimacy by making it clear that you thought it was safe to do business with them, notwithstanding all of the evidence to the contrary that has been systematically purged from the forum.

Now, after reading your defense of yourself in this thread, I can only conclude that either (1) you are being disingenuous or (2) you are the poster-child for naïve and utterly clueless people. In either case, as demonstrated by this thread, many of us are angry and disgusted with you.

GOSU1

 

[GOSU1]

So, what we know is that company is owned by only two people, husband and wife I presume, and he's got some sort of loan/financing from The Citizens Bank.

FWIW, I am a corporate lawyer. From this information, you cannot tell that the company is owned by only two people, or even that the Lewis are owners (although you could surmise that one or both of the Lewis' might be owners because of the name of the company). These sort of filings do not require that owners be listed. Oftentimes the officers of a company are owners, but not always. And there may be many owners who are not officers--for example, a New York stock exchange company will have many (thousands) owners who are not officers.

 

[Chu Gai]

FWIW, I am a corporate lawyer. From this information, you cannot tell that the company is owned by only two people, or even that the Lewis are owners (although you could surmise that one or both of the Lewis' might be owners because of the name of the company). These sort of filings do not require that owners be listed. Oftentimes the officers of a company are owners, but not always. And there may be many owners who are not officers--for example, a New York stock exchange company will have many (thousands) owners who are not officers.

Sure but it's a pretty reasonable bet that's the case here. Besides, you could always approach the president and ask the question, right?

 

[dane]

Now, after reading your defense of yourself in this thread, I can only conclude that either (1) you are being disingenuous or (2) you are the poster-child for naïve and utterly clueless people. In either case, as demonstrated by this thread, many of us are angry and disgusted with you.

Well if those are the only two choices I have, then I will take the latter, because I am most certainly not being disingenuous.

..dane

 

[droht]

Dane,

My biggest concern is that someone will stumble onto the AV123 website and/or its heavily-censored forum and will make a purchase while unaware of the sordid history of AV123 and MLS and the risks of doing business with them. By your posts on the forum, you were one of the worst, if not the worst, enablers and facilitators (with maybe only Kyle challenging you for that title) of AV123’s coverup. You helped give MLS and AV123 an appearance of legitimacy by making it clear that you thought it was safe to do business with them, notwithstanding all of the evidence to the contrary that has been systematically purged from the forum.

Now, after reading your defense of yourself in this thread, I can only conclude that either (1) you are being disingenuous or (2) you are the poster-child for naïve and utterly clueless people. In either case, as demonstrated by this thread, many of us are angry and disgusted with you.

GOSU1

Thank you for saving me the time to write this out. It is OK for anyone not to want to pile on to mls, but I have a different view when someone chooses to support a person and business far after serious questions have been raised. Hell, I feel bad (still to this day) for supporting mls when I truly had no idea of any issues.

 

[mhawker]

Anyone know the "Jon P" who won the iPad? Would love to get his impressions of it.

 

[geekinthehood]

Guys, give it a break. Please. Dane isn't kidding when he says that AV123 and MLS don't get much attention from him.

There's a little group (groupe?) of us in Huntsville who met through AV123 and still stay in touch - meeting for lunch every couple months, getting advice from each other, selling/buying equipment to each other, etc. When we last met, 2-3 weeks ago, do you know how many times the subject of AV123 or MLS came up? Zero. The sub that Dane mentioned was talked about, as well as his repair efforts, but that was it. I can't remember for sure, but I don't think AV123/MLS came up in the previous lunch, either. I met Dane since then, to give him a manual for an amp I gave him (not sub related), and he mentioned that AV123 sent him a driver, and not the amp he had requested for the sub. I thought this was a humorous par-for-the-course, but that was the extent of anything remotely resembling a discussion about AV123.

Maybe he was mistaken about a few things, maybe he wasn't as informed as you think he should've been, but to assign some kind of evil motive, to make him a bad guy in this...

It's just sad.

Very few of us on this board actually know each other in real life. I know Dane. These accusations and character attacks that I see flying around couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[dane]

Thanks Darren.. one quick fix though:

I met Dane since then, to give him a manual for an amp I gave him (not sub related), and he mentioned that AV123 sent him a driver, and not the amp he had requested for the sub.

Actually, it was Parts Express that sent me a Titan something-or-other 12" driver instead of the Dayton SA240 plate amp, not AV123.

The only AV123 discussion was that I was trying to get from Kyle the mod that they are applying when using the SA240's to warantee replace their own ufw-10 plate amps. -- and I'm still waiting to hear back on that front.

..dane

 

[Chu Gai]

Anyone know the "Jon P" who won the iPad? Would love to get his impressions of it.

That assumes there really was someone with that name who actually bought product and won the iPad. One thing you can be sure of is that it had to be somebody else besides Schifter who authorized that Memorial Day sale. There's no way Mark himself would run a sale and have a real winner!