DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[m-fine]

All I can say is Danny is a great speaker designer. He voices crossovers in a neutral way that I find I prefer, even in a blind comparison with speakers I have never heard before.

I liked his designs for the AV123 speakers much more than the DP crossovers, and I built a pair of his Neo 2X and I have to say they are fantastic speakers.

I don't agree with many of his opinions on other matters, and I question his relationship with AV123 and MLS, but I don't think there is enough there to make me wary of purchasing one of his kits. We all deal with tough situations differently, and I am sure there is a lot we don't know about Danny and Mark's past and present, and any potential post MLS AV123 plans.

 

[woofersus]

Thanks for the clarification Tim, but I could swear I read something about just spec'ing crossover parts upgrades. Has anybody compared the US version to a non-US soundwise? What about the new line of Be speakers? In either case, the Be-718 is a fine speaker.

There was some confusion about it because Usher officially attributes the design of the speaker to one person who was mostly responsible for the design, but retired before its completion. (forgive me for not researching the whole thing again right this second, I found all the info scattered about) They sent the design to Danny before the products release and he redesigned the crossover and spec'd higher end parts. Usher ended up using Danny's design for the US market (and maybe some others but I'm not 100% sure on that) but not everywhere. Then a review was done on the U.S. version and the reviewer stated that Danny had "stuffed it with high end parts." This led many people to believe that he had only upgraded parts. The whole thing ends up fairly convoluted, but Usher had stated that the designer of record wasn't responsible for 100% of the design in all markets and Danny has stated multiple times when asked that he redesigned the crossover.

 

[woofersus]

All I can say is "screw that". How many times did that get thrown up when people started to wonder about mls and his tricks? I'm not saying in any way that Danny has any involvement or has done anything wrong. All I am saying is I think we should all maybe trust our gut instincts a bit more, and not turn away from some well-reasoned opinions just because there is no smoking gun or whatever.

I think there were plenty of facts to go by in the case of MLS, and there would have been more if people would have spoken up about things. (and not the ambiguous stuff looked at in hindsight, like how much his customers liked him, or how good the prices were - those could have been very good signs) For some the necessity of a "smoking gun" was a way of staying in denial.

Like I said, I can understand being more wary at this point, and there is nothing wrong well reasoned opinions, but I have seen a few posts here that have gone well beyond that into paranoia and speculation. (not only talking about Danny) Of course, if any connection at all makes you uncomfortable buying from or working with somebody, that's clearly your prerogative, but for the same reason it's important to speak the truth so that future unwitting victims can be protected, I think it's unfair to speculate without any real info in a way that could cast shadow on a legitimate businessman.

Perhaps I feel this a little more acutely because of my involvement with Onix. People have a tendency to stay away just because of its association with AV123, (mls certainly made it sound like his involvement with Onix was much deeper than it was) and more than a few believe that we are trying to charge 90% markups because MLS sold things he didn't pay for at less than his cost should have been. I've seen people speculate about that openly on numerous message boards, and while I haven't seen my own character called into question or anything like that, I can understand how concretely such speculation hurts business.

I'm really not talking about 95% of the posts here, and a few have been removed that I cringed when I read, but there is a tendency to get carried away and I was trying to caution against that.

 

[Chu Gai]

MLS was a retailer for ONIX as I see it Tim and it is indeed unfortunate that when when you Google up Onix + speakers you get a ton of AV451 hits. Had they only been one of the retailers, the stigma would not stick with such tenacity. MLS certainly made far more of the relationship than the aftermath has uncovered. Until such time as you're able to get more of these products into the marketplace and reviewed in the various websites, it's going to be an uphill struggle. Seaton seems to me to have largely been able to avoid being tarred and his approaches I think bear study and emulation.

 

[cschang]

Tim, there was one thing I always wondered about...

The Onix Ref 1SE. The version that was done in the "Rocket" rosewood finish. Was that an actual Onix product, or was it a clone that MLS had put together in order to sell at a low price?

 

[Hugh-Melody]

Curtis,

If I may jump in here.

I didn't know there's such a version of the Ref1?

Do you have any info on it so I may learn for myself?

Thanks Curtis,

Tim, there was one thing I always wondered about...

The Onix Ref 1SE. The version that was done in the "Rocket" rosewood finish. Was that an actual Onix product, or was it a clone that MLS had put together in order to sell at a low price?

 

[bunnyma357]

Curtis,

If I may jump in here.

I didn't know there's such a version of the Ref1?

Do you have any info on it so I may learn for myself?

Thanks Curtis,

There were three Ref 1 finishes, Piano Black, Birdseye Maple and Rosewood - and the Rosewood one was often significantly discounted ($499), but the other two never were. Based on the pricing history & the finish matching the Rockets, I believe Curtis thought the Rosewoods might not have been "official" Onix speakers, but a "licensed" knock-off of sorts.

http://www.av123.com//index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=35&Itemid=37

Jim C

 

[cschang]

Thanks Jim...looks like I remember the model naming wrong....Ref 1 LE.

I just always wondered why/how they were discounted so much. If I remember correctly, they were also bundled with their tube amp as well at one point.

BTW, I always lusted over that Birdseye Maple finish.

 

[Hugh-Melody]

Jim,

Thanks.

I don't believe it's a knocked-off version at all.

The discount was due to the lower cost of the standard Rosewood veneer while PBEM & PB required a lot more of time to finish hence the higher cost.

Thanks again Jim,

 

[cschang]

Thanks Jim.

The LE version seemed to be the one that was always on sale and bundled.

 

[woofersus]

Thanks Jim...looks like I remember the model naming wrong....Ref 1 LE.

I just always wondered why/how they were discounted so much. If I remember correctly, they were also bundled with their tube amp as well at one point.

BTW, I always lusted over that Birdseye Maple finish.

Hmm, I thought it was SE as in "second edition." I never owned a pair though, so I could very well be wrong. Maybe it was LE as in "limited edition." As Hugh said, the rosewood veneer was definitely cheaper to make, as the MSRP's that we're working with are lower, for example, on the Monitor 1 in Satin Ebony vs. the version in Piano Black. The same held true with the Ref 3's in rosewood vs Piano anything. If you look at the price differences between different finishes on my website, it will mirror the differences in my cost. Adding the Rosewood veneer makes sense since SAC was building Rockets for AV123 at the time and that finish was quite popular.

I would like to point out though, that there are other reasons for the steep discounting. For one thing, rosewood was a popular choice (partially because of the lower price even before the fire sales) and tended to be what was in stock when the need to quickly generate cash flow arose. Also, if they are building a bunch of rockets and a few Ref 1/2/3's, it creates economies of scale to use the same veneer. (not to mention there are minimum orders sizes for production runs) Finally, I can assure you that even though AV123 had a little bit better margin to work with because there were no dealers, the prices they were selling the Ref 1's at towards the end (maybe since '08) were simply not sustainable. They were able to charge those prices because they weren't paying their bills.

I'm fairly certain there was no knock-off involved. There were a few leftover Rosewood ref 1.5's, 2's, and 3's still in stock when I first became a dealer. (all gone now)

 

[Hugh-Melody]

Correction:

I meant to say kit and not kid.

I'm getting old real quick, no thanks to MLS.

If I may ask, what kid are you planning to get from Danny?

Also, I would not hesitate to purchase anything from Danny.

As a matter of fact, Danny and I are working on something which will be made public pretty soon.

As to his business with MLS, I have no comment.

 

[Chu Gai]

Correction:

I meant to say kit and not kid.

I'm getting old real quick, no thanks to MLS.

Cheer up, Hugh. I'm sure in the end MLS will find a way to come through. 'Course, I'm sure parents would pay a bit more for kids with upgraded manners.

 

[droht]

So guilt by association is the order of the day?

No, and to be sure I wasn't conveying that I typed I'm not saying in any way that Danny has any involvement or has done anything wrong.

What I was suggesting is that people should trust their own reactions a bit more, and not feel compelled to follow the on line lemmings off the cliff. And I say that as a former lemming.

 

[mziegler]

Fair enough.

 

[Harmon]

BTW, I always lusted over that Birdseye Maple finish.

Me too, Curtis. I loved the look of the BEM and thought the Ref 1 was the best sounding speaker that AV123 sold. Still wouldn't mind having a pair if I found some for the right price.

 

[Chu Gai]

Me too, Curtis. I loved the look of the BEM and thought the Ref 1 was the best sounding speaker that AV123 sold. Still wouldn't mind having a pair if I found some for the right price.

Well Harmon, you never know. Some time ago, MLS had a friend in California who was going through a divorce and in order to help out, he reached into the cockle's of his heart (there are stents there now I hear) and offered to sell a bunch of speakers. I seem to recall there were some Ref1's. You might want to contact MLS (you can find his cell phone on Craigslist) and see if he has any more friends going through a divorce that have speakers to sell. I know he'd cut you a great deal and after you paid him, would take it upon himself to make sure there's nothing wrong by evaluating them at home for an extended period of time so that when you finally got them, they were A-OK.

 

[Harmon]

Hahaha ... I'll check into that.

 

[audionut101]

I have my day in court with the big guy!

Well, after waiting YEARS for the RSL2 and many broken promises and ignored emails and phone calls, I finally decided to have my case heard in small claims court in CO.

yes, I will have to fly down and present my case, but I figure it is more about principal. I have spoken to other lawyers who say it is one thing to win a case and another to collect, I figure it will be a fun learning experience for me.

anyone who was on the RSL2 list who prepaid or anyone else want to give me some extra evidence or advice, feel free to PM me.

My court date is set for the end of June. It will be interesting!

 

[Jed M]

Good for you. Personally, even if Mark was able to miraculously finish the RSL's I would imagine the components would be so marginalized by his financial troubles the speakers would not remotely resemble their original description. I would be kicking myself if I paid for the "HR" kit.