DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Hugh-Melody]

If I may ask, what kid are you planning to get from Danny?

Also, I would not hesitate to purchase anything from Danny.

As a matter of fact, Danny and I are working on something which will be made public pretty soon.

As to his business with MLS, I have no comment.

I have some questions that I hope someone can answer. I was planning to buy a speaker kit from GR Research but after reading this thread and finding out Danny is still working with MLS, I am having second thoughts.

Can Danny and his company be trusted?

I have searched for information and it is overwhelmly positive but the same can be said about MLS until the last year or so. I see the Ninja has posted here but his business relationship has ended while Danny Ritchie's has not.

Can someone enlighten me as to what is the deal with Mr. Ritchie? Can he and his products be trusted or he just another MLS that has yet to be revealed?

I only ask these questions because of his past and, more importantly, his continued relationship wtih MLS. As I said, all my research has resulted in overwhelmingly good comments about him, his products and his company. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to avoid a burn like I got on the UFW-12.

Thanks

 

[Jed M]

I have spoken to others about this privately, but I will say as much as I enjoy my LS-6's and respect Danny's work, I do have my doubts about him still in business with them. Ultimately its up for everybody to decide but I will say that surprisingly the first person to warn me about MLS (years and years ago) was Danny. I wanted to compare his bookshelves to the *new* Ref 1's and they were both generous to offer me a comparison. If anybody wants a blast from the past, enjoy:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=327859&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Its amazing how you age in 7 years...

Either way, I always understood why Danny and MLS eventually buried the hatchet and went into business, but now that Danny was ultimately proven right about Mark, its disappointing to me that he is ignoring the same advice he gave me so long ago. He knows what kind of guy Mark is, but I hope its just because he is owed money and not because he actually has had a change of heart.

Personal feelings aside, I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from GR Research and I will say the best speakers I ever bought from Mark were done by Danny. Personally I find it hard to reconcile Danny's motivation to do business with a company like AV123, but sometimes business is just business and I got to respect that. He has always seemed to me like a genuinely good guy.

 

[Stereodude]

Talk about a flash back of the original kool-aid-krew with Sa-dono and Mad Dog. Yikes!

 

[wshuff]

From that archived thread:

you've seen how mark schifter, founder of av123, embraces those who prefer other products after auditioning av123 offerings...he understands it's all about personal preference and says it's all good. and he means it.

now you've gotten a glimpse of how danny richie, owner of gr research, handles those who choose other products after auditioning gr research offerings. he attacks anyone who does not review his products favorably even if the comparison was done with 2 of his own creations.

i think these actions speak volumes about each founders' character.

Seems to me that nobody had any idea whatsoever about the "character" or lack thereof, of the founders.

Danny?



Good Morning from China?



I was shocked and dismayed beyond words when the link to the avs thread arrived this morning?



I want a full and complete apology for the things that were said on avs forum about two things (the rest I cannot and would not ask you to comment on) . . .

Danny? I want these apologies now? and I?m very serious about it? You and have ?some history? now? and you know me? this is wrong? and I?m going to ask you as a gentleman to go up on avs and clear the air?

Ah, well . . . has anybody demanded a full and complete apology from MLS, for lying, thievery, and general douchebaggery? Seems that as a gentlemen he would, or should, respond.

As for that nonsense about paid shills for AV123, we now know that was all a crock . . . AV123 never paid anybody.

 

[cschang]

I have spoken to others about this privately, but I will say as much as I enjoy my LS-6's and respect Danny's work, I do have my doubts about him still in business with them. Ultimately its up for everybody to decide but I will say that surprisingly the first person to warn me about MLS (years and years ago) was Danny. I wanted to compare his bookshelves to the *new* Ref 1's and they were both generous to offer me a comparison. If anybody wants a blast from the past, enjoy:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=327859&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Its amazing how you age in 7 years...

Either way, I always understood why Danny and MLS eventually buried the hatchet and went into business, but now that Danny was ultimately proven right about Mark, its disappointing to me that he is ignoring the same advice he gave me so long ago. He knows what kind of guy Mark is, but I hope its just because he is owed money and not because he actually has had a change of heart.

Personal feelings aside, I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from GR Research and I will say the best speakers I ever bought from Mark were done by Danny. Personally I find it hard to reconcile Danny's motivation to do business with a company like AV123, but sometimes business is just business and I got to respect that. He has always seemed to me like a genuinely good guy.

Wow! I even posted in that thread!

Jed, I am the guy that shipped you the AV/2's!

 

[Chu Gai]

I have some questions that I hope someone can answer. I was planning to buy a speaker kit from GR Research but after reading this thread and finding out Danny is still working with MLS, I am having second thoughts.

Can Danny and his company be trusted?

Virtually everyone who has entered into business relationships with MLS has been schiftered, aka screwed, out of monies. Some have moved on, some have sued, some are contemplating suing, and some are trying to figure out if there's some way they can get all or some of what's owed them even if it means dancing with the devil. While I won't discuss specifics, it's safe to say that Danny is owed considerable amounts of money. I don't think he's a wealthy man and that can work against you when you're looking to sue MLS with him being in Colorado and DR being in Texas. With the present climate - MLS being indicted for several felonies, his product line decimated, several people going after him for what's owed them, and even companies like American Express and Mercedes Benz looking to collect what's owed them - DR may feel some sort of involvement with even one so odious as MLS is the only avenue left to him in order to recoup some of his losses.

Now, MLS has a way of making it sound like he's actively working with people which makes him sound more solvent and active than he is. To put it bluntly, MLS is a bullsh!tter extraordinaire! However, the utter lack of any posting by DR on MLS's shambles of a forum suggests to me that DR has limited involvement at this time. I would imagine that any work he does for MLS is contingent not only on being paid for that work but also upon receiving back monies.

I therefore wouldn't make too much about them working closely together. There are times when men and countries find it necessary to engage each other despite mutual dislikes bordering upon hatred. That's just life. Whether his product offering are right for you, I don't know. IMO though, he won't screw you and should you decide to also buy ready made cabinets from say Ruben, you will not be disappointed. Perhaps you can find someone in your local area who has the product you're interested in so you can listen to it.

I have searched for information and it is overwhelmly positive but the same can be said about MLS until the last year or so. I see the Ninja has posted here but his business relationship has ended while Danny Ritchie's has not.

Can someone enlighten me as to what is the deal with Mr. Ritchie? Can he and his products be trusted or he just another MLS that has yet to be revealed?

I only ask these questions because of his past and, more importantly, his continued relationship wtih MLS. As I said, all my research has resulted in overwhelmingly good comments about him, his products and his company. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to avoid a burn like I got on the UFW-12.

Thanks

See above.

 

[Tesla43]

Thanks for all the replies.

OnixMan,
I am looking at the N3 kit.

I appreciate the fact that business is business and sometimes people get trapped by past circumstances that stick thems with less than desireable business partners. DR has posted on audio circle some rather strong opinions about who he will and will not do business with. In his own words, he has said that personal integrity means a great deal to him when selecting a business partner. I appreciate those sentiments but I have heard similar things from MLS only to learn that his nobel proclamations were just part of a carefully crafted image of a four star con artist. I guess I applied a little "guilt by association" to DR. I am now a little more wary of internet audio companies after my experiences with AV666 and I like to check them out as much as I can before sending them any of my hard earned cash.

I appreciate everyone's comments.

 

[subdude]

. I guess I applied a little "guilt by association" to DR.

I spent very little time googling, and I found out that:

1) DR still works with MLS (duh!) We don't know motivation, but wow! If a criminal owes you money do you help him make more so you can get some of it?

2) He seems to be involved in many not-too-professional-style arguments on audio forums regarding break-in and other nonsense, in which posters don't give him the same credit they are giving him here in this discussion (some of them being the same posters praising him in other settings, by the way)

3) When two sets of av666 speakers were embarrassingly shown at a get together to be very different in sound, he joined MLS in defending the differences as "break in", not due to the horrible quality control and crappy production methods of the speaker maker. I find it hard to believe that a man on the inside didn't know the real reason for the speakers sounding differently. But knowing that he makes speakers for MLS I understand why he clings to the break-in theory - without it he can't defend the inconcistent tonal quality of the product.

4) the other guy who won't walk away from MLS is HWSNBN. Does anyone trust him? Good guys don't generally hang out or run business partnerships with con men, at least not once they know the truth.

Anecdotal individual experience aside, this last one is usually a pretty universal truth.

 

[MinusTheBear]

IMO, I am just not a fan of his audio persona. My personal preference is to stay away from manufacturers that negatively comment on other manufacturers/designers as well as those that promote night and day differences regarding controversial topics such as speaker break-in, cables, cable break-in and getting into heated public arguments about it. And then there are past/present business associations.

To his credit his non-av123 designed speakers seem to be much better quality and fair well in 3rd party testing. I believe he designed this speaker here.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/usheraudio_be718/

If you do buy from him I am sure it will be a well designed product.

 

[wshuff]

I just received an email from AV123 advertising a "Sizzlin' Sub Sale!" I think that qualifies as truth in advertising. My friend's sub certainly sizzled, right before it belched smoke and died.

 

[woofersus]

I think it's important to note that Danny is a designer - a contractor if you will - and not a business partner with MLS or anybody who he has worked with on a speaker design. Just as with HWSNBN, I don't think it's fair to take some personal attributes you don't like about a guy and parlay them into everything devious about somebody else they have a loose connection to. I can undestand being more wary these days, but I feel like some of the speculation that goes on based on 6 degrees of separation is irresponsible at best. Let's try to stick with facts.

Furthermore, as Chu said, it's tough to say how much (if any) involvement Danny actually has with MLS at this point. When asked about the Rocket Volta, Danny said that it was only a rendering at this point and no design work had been done, but if it ever actually gets made it could be fantastic. I'm guessing the extent of his working on some of these new designs is nothing more than a few phone conversations about conept.

Whether or not you appreciate Danny's positions on certain topics or some argument he had with somebody, the fact is that he does good work and treats his customers well. As a potential customer that's what matters. He has strong opinions and not everybody agrees with him, but his speakers sure sound good, and thus he has a fairly loyal group of "followers." You'll find, though, that many of the designers who operate on AC are the exact same way, and every talented designer has a following that thinks they can do no wrong. It's human nature I guess.

In any case, I think the N3's are fabulous, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.

 

[Chu Gai]

Furthermore, as Chu said, it's tough to say how much (if any) involvement Danny actually has with MLS at this point. When asked about the Rocket Volta, Danny said that it was only a rendering at this point and no design work had been done, but if it ever actually gets made it could be fantastic. I'm guessing the extent of his working on some of these new designs is nothing more than a few phone conversations about concept.

Before they were deleted, some may remember the not so long ago chats MLS had where he intimated that he still had a relationship with Seaton and was talking about sub upgrades that Seaton could perform as well as other projects. The casual reader or Googler might take that to mean Seaton was still functioning in an employee/contractor relationship and looking to assist the visions of the myopic Humbly Bumbly. Yet, there was no relationship unless one considers Seaton being owed monies a relationship.

The casual reader or Googler might also think that MLS actively worked with Arte Forma (Michael Gill) in the design of the amp that is no longer prominently featured on their website. Yet that was nothing more than fluffery.

The casual reader or Googler might have inferred that the parting of MLS and Mr. Pu was amicable and based on two people moving in different directions who still maintain a mutual respect for each other.

MLS says a lot of stuff and gets a lot of people to believe his babblings. Determining whether there's meat takes a lot more effort than searching around the web. I'm sure a few people who worked with him thought he was the real deal and would be able to earn a healthy income based on what appeared to be strong growth. Each of those people now bears varying degrees of multiple knife wounds in their backs. I'm not going to tell you to buy or not buy from him. The contrary positions voiced here are not without merit. Neither are the others. It's up to you to figure out for yourself what you want to do.

 

[gonk]

I just received an email from AV123 advertising a "Sizzlin' Sub Sale!" I think that qualifies as truth in advertising. My friend's sub certainly sizzled, right before it belched smoke and died.

I got that email, too. I was wondering if it was really a sale if they are selling the B-stock subs at the same B-stock price they've been using (excluding "free shipping" sales that jacked the price up by $100) for as long as I can remember? Sure, the subs are "for sale" (they'll sell you one), but it doesn't seem like they're actually "on sale" under the circumstances.

Damn - I just went and applied logic to an AV123 sales email. No wonder I'm so confused now...

 

[Chu Gai]

I think given the circumstances, $400 is the price point at which people will take a chance. From his POV, that's too bad as there can't be much margin with that price point. Come on, the 29th!

 

[cschang]

IMO, I am just not a fan of his audio persona. My personal preference is to stay away from manufacturers that negatively comment on other manufacturers/designers as well as those that promote night and day differences regarding controversial topics such as speaker break-in, cables, cable break-in and getting into heated public arguments about it. And then there are past/present business associations.

To his credit his non-av123 designed speakers seem to be much better quality and fair well in 3rd party testing. I believe he designed this speaker here.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/usheraudio_be718/

If you do buy from him I am sure it will be a well designed product.

My understanding is he spec'd the crossover parts, not the design.

 

[woofersus]

My understanding is he spec'd the crossover parts, not the design.

He designed the crossover, but not the rest of the speaker. (or more accurately redesigned the crossover for the version sold in the U.S.)

It's a similar case with many of his designs. He does a lot of development of drivers through a couple of OEM's he has relationships with, and he designs crossovers for them, but doesn't always have 100% control.

 

[droht]

...Let's try to stick with facts...

All I can say is "screw that". How many times did that get thrown up when people started to wonder about mls and his tricks? I'm not saying in any way that Danny has any involvement or has done anything wrong. All I am saying is I think we should all maybe trust our gut instincts a bit more, and not turn away from some well-reasoned opinions just because there is no smoking gun or whatever.

 

[mziegler]

All I can say is "screw that". How many times did that get thrown up when people started to wonder about mls and his tricks? I'm not saying in any way that Danny has any involvement or has done anything wrong. All I am saying is I think we should all maybe trust our gut instincts a bit more, and not turn away from some well-reasoned opinions just because there is no smoking gun or whatever.

So guilt by association is the order of the day?

 

[cschang]

He designed the crossover, but not the rest of the speaker. (or more accurately redesigned the crossover for the version sold in the U.S.)

It's a similar case with many of his designs. He does a lot of development of drivers through a couple of OEM's he has relationships with, and he designs crossovers for them, but doesn't always have 100% control.

Thanks for the clarification Tim, but I could swear I read something about just spec'ing crossover parts upgrades. Has anybody compared the US version to a non-US soundwise? What about the new line of Be speakers? In either case, the Be-718 is a fine speaker.

 

[cschang]

All I can say is "screw that". How many times did that get thrown up when people started to wonder about mls and his tricks? I'm not saying in any way that Danny has any involvement or has done anything wrong. All I am saying is I think we should all maybe trust our gut instincts a bit more, and not turn away from some well-reasoned opinions just because there is no smoking gun or whatever.

I have talked to Danny. I can tell you, he has been lied to by MLS, and doesn't necessarily believe he has been lied to.